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Starlink direct to T-Mobile phone

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Which existing design though, phone or satellite?

I had mentioned "unmodifed cell phone", in my initial post, and then referred to the limited antenna space in a cell phone handset in my subsequent one, so thought I was clearly talking about the phone design...

Upgraded Deep Space Network still talks to Voyager 2.

Signal strength (per unit area) falls at the square of distance, 500km vs 50km requires 100x the area or 10x per side (if using the same receiver, which they are not). Starlink phone antenna is 5-6 meters, 25 m^2, equivalent to 0.25m^2 at 50 km or 2.7 ft^2. Cell tower antennas are about 1 sq ft.

Not to say it isn't cool and mind blowing!

I find the DSN pretty amazing too, but that's a bit of my point... as you said, it's upgraded, whereas the cell phone isn't, although you could argue the sats are on the other end... nonetheless Voyager and ground stations were designed to talk to each other, (i.e. directional parabolic antennas) , whereas phones are built with non-directional omni designs and power budgeted for 2-3 orders of magnitude closer distance...
 
So the big announcement is that SpaceX has partnered with T-Mobile to roll out a direct to cell phone service. Will work with existing cell phones - no extra customer hardware needed. T-Mobile is going to dedicate a slice of mid-band PCS spectrum to work with V2 Starlink satellites. Expected end of 2023.

This will be a messaging, low bandwidth service. They expect the total bandwidth for each satellite cell will be 2 Mbps to 4 Mbps. The technology will allow for a store and forward service, so a satellite doesn't even need to be in view when you send the text message. The phone will wait until it gets satellite connectivity and then send the message. This also means that it can start to be operational well before full satellite coverage is available. Elon said they could turn it on (certainly for emergency services) when they would get like a satellite zipping overhead once every fifteen minutes or so.

T-Mobile said that aspirationally they would include this service for free in their higher end (they said "most popular") services. T-Mobile and SpaceX also made the call out to international carriers to come on board and allow people to roam worldwide.

The biggest use case for this technology will be safety and security for people outside cell phone range, either hiking or driving a car. Of course, texting a picture standing on top of Mt Whitney will also be popular :)
First time I’ve seen this thread.

Good news! Those of us with T-Mobile in SoCal are outside of cell service a lot, the service is crap. With T-Mobile I can see a cell tower 1,500 feet away but my phone says No Service. At the same time my Verizon iPad has 4 bars.
 
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whereas the cell phone isn't, although you could argue the sats are on the other end...
That's what he's saying. The satellite can shout loud enough and has good enough hearing to make up for the cellphone's limitations. Cell towers don't shout very loud and don't hear all that well, but if you put down a bunch of them, there's always one close enough.
 
Hehe.. it's not that I don't understand how it works[1]. I just find it incredible that it's practical to do so. Much like the DSN, to borrow @mongo's example.

There are lots of things I find incredible, despite knowing they clearly exist and function, and even understand how, to some extent.

In any case, we better move on before @Grendal has to put us in a corner...

[1] I actually have some RF technical training, have been a licensed amateur radio operator for 30 years, etc...
 
I had mentioned "unmodifed cell phone", in my initial post, and then referred to the limited antenna space in a cell phone handset in my subsequent one, so thought I was clearly talking about the phone design...

I find the DSN pretty amazing too, but that's a bit of my point... as you said, it's upgraded, whereas the cell phone isn't, although you could argue the sats are on the other end... nonetheless Voyager and ground stations were designed to talk to each other, (i.e. directional parabolic antennas) , whereas phones are built with non-directional omni designs and power budgeted for 2-3 orders of magnitude closer distance...
I think we all understand each other, just closing my loop.

Voyager 2 wasn't upgraded nor designed with current DSN in mind, just like preexisting phones aren't designed with Starlink in mind. Rather, Starlink was upgraded with cell phones in mind.
It is quite cool that a satellite can pick up a normal cell phone transmissions from hundreds of km away.
 
Could be that cell tower has Verizon but not T-Mobile antennas.
I agree, but T-Mobile claims...

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And so it begins: (Sep 30, 2023)

It's worth noting that the row between Omnispace and SX began many many months ago. Its also worth noting that SX is just as culpable for playing the same fedagency/regulatory/filing games everyone else gets castrated for (eg, see SX messing with Globlastar, see SX's objection to the Viasat/Imarsat merger...and that's just what's in public domain...).

Anyway, TLDR on this one, SX interference will effectively raise Omnispace's noise floor by 3db. (ITU recommends 1db.) That's a big difference leading to ~50% reduction in an omnispace satellite capacity. SX's position is that there are other Omnispace satellites in coverage that won't be nearly as affected and so they should be fine, but that perspective doesn't quite land when one lacks billions of dollars to build out a constellation with massive coverage overlaps. Omnispace needs to eke out every bit of performance out of every satellite in order to get anywhere close to staying alive. SX prevailing on this one will effectively kill omnispace simply because they don't have enough money to build out a gigantor constellation.

General consensus seems to be that SX will likely prevail because omnispace--or at least this version of omnispace, with their own constellation--is generally seen as likely to fail anyway. (Monetization in the Direct To Device space is a bear.)

I still find it incredible they are planning to test connectivity to "unmodified cell phones" ...

AST has been communicating with blue walker through an off the shelf mobile device and in fact recently made an actual phone call. And of course, Apple now has two generations of iPhones providing satellite connectivity.

For some background, the "unmodified phone" moniker was originally created to be dismissive of Apple's approach to solving the D2D spectrum problem using existing MSS bands that historically haven't been built into mobile phones. It's not wrong I suppose, but I can't remember the last time I heard someone talking about how their new phone was "modified" so they could operate on 5G compared to their old 4G phone, and Apple’s update is simply the way all technology gets updated. So…the origin of ‘unmodified phone’ is a bit dubious IMO.

Waxing aside, it shouldn't be any great accomplishment for SX to follow in the footsteps of AST and Apple and successfully have an off the shelf mobile device [usefully] communicate with a satellite. It still--as has always been the case--remains to be seen if the expense of D2D can be sufficiently monetized. Commercial success of D2D is going to be the incredible thing in this space. Hell, breaking even is going to be incredible.

Good news! Those of us with T-Mobile in SoCal are outside of cell service a lot, the service is crap.

Obviously more-than-nothing is infinitely better than nothing, so of course from that perspective it’s great news. But...don't set your expectations too high. It will probably start off similar to Apple's service, maybe with best-effort texting on top of that. Something close to the full contemplated T-mobile constellation (which I'd guess isn't every starlink sat, since thousands of D2D antennas would really hit the asymptote of usefulness) won't have any problem supporting 'normal' texting, plus probably some additional functions that don't require a lot of constant low lag load (maps, etc), plus some third party API-ing (WhatsApp or whatever The Kids use these days, etc.). But...you're never going to get anywhere close to a "regular 5g experience" with heavy loads like streaming/gaming through a satellite and a mobile phone. Calls might not even be a thing, could be pretty throttled/limited, or may be only reserved for 911. (I mean, only monsters and people in emergencies make phone calls anyway so I guess no big loss there, but it's still worth mentioning. )

Importantly, you're also pretty much looking at service only when you're outdoor and in an unoccluded setting, due to the difficulty in closing what is always going to be a pretty marginal link. (In a car will likely be hit or miss...probably mostly ok for texting, especially if you have some patience for retries.)

A big unknown is that T-mobile needs to pay SX for the service hosting (call it $1B/year) and so you'll need to pay T-mobile for the end user service. T-mobile has ~100M customers so 0th oder that's only $10/year/customer (which obviously is pretty tenable if it just gets baked into everyone's plans), but since service quality is inversely proportional to the number of users, giving everyone access opens up a strong potential for really shitty service, especially in places you're most likely to go off grid (because those places are the same places other people are most likely to go--service quality is always going to come down to user density, just like Starlink). If the pricing instead becomes opt-in (monthly/per-use/day-pass/whatever) service will be way way better but also could get pretty steep.

Another big unknown is how Apple's existing service will impact the take on an opt-in scenario. US phones are basically evenly split between iOS and Android; even if we account for TM's lower-tier MNO status it's probably fair to say at least 1/3 of the customers are on iPhones. Anyone buying a new iPhone gets apple's satellite service for free (at least for some time--two years I think, though its hard to imagine ever having to pay for a 911 service) and so those folks will have to pay a TM upcharge to get [additional] satellite service to what they already have. Is a bit of a human nature thought experiment to tease out how many people will want to pay extra vs fall back to "Apple keeps me safe, I can wait to text until I get there".

Then there's the other MNO factor--I don't know what the TM/SX agreement actually says, but I assume its very much an SLA (vs TM procuring Capex) and, if there's any kind of exclusivity in it, it would only be for a short time. So..SX could (and I'm sure are keen to) sign similar SLAs with A/V and further clog up the network. More money for SX, lower level of service for all users.

So bottom line, any service is better than no service, but meter your expectations on "service".
 
(I mean, only monsters and people in emergencies make phone calls anyway so I guess no big loss there, but it's still worth mentioning. )
lol.. especially unannounced phone calls...

[snip]

For some background, the "unmodified phone" moniker was originally created to be dismissive of Apple's approach to solving the D2D spectrum problem using existing MSS bands that historically haven't been built into mobile phones. It's not wrong I suppose, but I can't remember the last time I heard someone talking about how their new phone was "modified" so they could operate on 5G compared to their old 4G phone, and Apple’s update is simply the way all technology gets updated. So…the origin of ‘unmodified phone’ is a bit dubious IMO.

So, the service requires a phone model specifically designed to work with the sats?
 
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lol.. especially unannounced phone calls...



So, the service requires a phone model specifically designed to work with the sats?

"The service" is vague.

The Apple phone to Globalstar sat requirements are different than the Tmobile/SpaceX to phone requirements.

Tmoible/SpaceX don't require a phone model specifically designed to work with sats.

Globalstar might, I don't bother following it because it won't apply to me.
 
"The service" is vague.

The Apple phone to Globalstar sat requirements are different than the Tmobile/SpaceX to phone requirements.

Tmoible/SpaceX don't require a phone model specifically designed to work with sats.

Globalstar might, I don't bother following it because it won't apply to me.
This is what I was able to find:
The new feature is owed to an updated wireless chipset exclusive to the iPhone 14/Plus and 14 Pro/Max.
The satellite message feature will be available through a software upgrade on iPhone 14 models, which include extra hardware to send the messages, in November.
While Apple will pay for 95% of the approved capital expenditure for the new Globalstar satellites needed to support the service, Globalstar said it would still need to raise additional debt to construct and deploy the satellites.
Delivered in partnership with Globalstar, Apple’s Emergency SOS via satellite service utilizes the spectrum in L and S bands specially designated for mobile satellite services by ITU Radio Regulations.


So, it looks like special hardware chips in the phones (iPhone 14) as well as new satellites and ground stations.
Apple invested $450 million in Globalstar to help them make the changes.
 
So, the service requires a phone model specifically designed to work with the sats?

Yes. You need an iPhone 14 or 15 to use the apple satellite service.

It is unclear what phones will actually work with the TM service, and probably more importantly, how well any particular model will work with the TM service (or perhaps the corollary: what kind of service any particular model is capable of experiencing). I suspect most folks assume 'unmodified' means any phone and “normal-ish service”, but obviously reality isn’t that binary.

"The service" is vague.

It is clear what device you need, whose network you’re using, and what level of service you get. Doesn't get any less vague than that.
 
It is clear what device you need, whose network you’re using, and what level of service you get. Doesn't get any less vague than that.
1696979009103.png


"the service" is the wording used by Scaesare. I call that vague because we are in a thread called "Starlink direct to T-Mobile phone"

again there are posts about Apple phones and Gobalstar satellites just blithely using the phrase "the service" in a thread called

Starlink direct to T-Mobile phone.​


That's what I call vague.


* An Apple phone with Tmobile service can use "Starlink direct to T-Mobile phone".
* An Android phone with Tmobile service can use "Starlink direct to T-Mobile phone"
* An new enough Apple phone with or without Tmobile service can use the apple specific globalstar emergency service.
* An Android phone of any age with or without Tmobile service can not use the apple specific globalstar emergency service.


I'm saying if you are going to mix globalstar and apple specific talk in a thread that isn't primarily about those you are going to have to qualify your statements more so than just "the service" and "the phone" and "the satellite" and "the cell network". You need to say which one of each in almost every single sentence of every post or there will be confusion.
 
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In any case, the term "unmodified phone" has nothing to do with Apple. Apple is actually a late comer in terms of direct to cellphone technology, they started working on this in 2019 or so. But Lynk (originally Ubiquitilink) and AST SpaceMobile (also called AST & Science) started working on connecting unmodified phone to satellite since 2017 or 2018, here's an early 2019 article talking about Ubiquitilink's technology: Ubiquitilink advance means every phone is now a satellite phone | TechCrunch
Utilizing a constellation of satellites in low Earth orbit, Ubiquitilink claimed during a briefing at Mobile World Congress in Barcelona that pretty much any phone from the last decade should be able to text and do other low-bandwidth tasks from anywhere, even in the middle of the ocean or deep in the Himalayas. Literally (though eventually) anywhere and any time.

Note at that time nobody in the public even know Apple is working on iphone to satellite connection tech, that didn't come out until December 2019: Apple reportedly working on satellite technology for direct wireless iPhone data transmission | TechCrunch

So no, "unmodified phone" is not used to disparage Apple, it's just the major selling point of this tech, it's trivially obvious why this is valuable: you increase the potential user base significantly since not everyone is going to have the latest phone; also this allows you to get the spectrum by cooperating with terrestrial MNOs.

BTW SpaceX is not limiting themselves to "unmodified phone" anyways, they're going after the spectrum used by Globalstar too, basically SpaceX wants its fingers in all the pies.
 
This is what I was able to find:
The new feature is owed to an updated wireless chipset exclusive to the iPhone 14/Plus and 14 Pro/Max.
The satellite message feature will be available through a software upgrade on iPhone 14 models, which include extra hardware to send the messages, in November.
While Apple will pay for 95% of the approved capital expenditure for the new Globalstar satellites needed to support the service, Globalstar said it would still need to raise additional debt to construct and deploy the satellites.
Delivered in partnership with Globalstar, Apple’s Emergency SOS via satellite service utilizes the spectrum in L and S bands specially designated for mobile satellite services by ITU Radio Regulations.


So, it looks like special hardware chips in the phones (iPhone 14) as well as new satellites and ground stations.
Apple invested $450 million in Globalstar to help them make the changes.

I suspect that if Apple is explicitly releasing a model engineered to support sat comms with a chip, there may be some antenna optimization as well. As @bxr140 pointed out, an omni is great when you need to hit any tower 360 degrees around you while your phone may be either upright in your hand or flat on a table, but not so much when trying to hit an antenna a meter across from 340 miles away...

It's why your car radio antenna is a dipole, and your sat TV service has a parabolic dish.
 
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My sattelite TV serivce is Dishy...
The Starlink customer client stations have the phased array antenna.

So yes, some elements of these arrays are always seeking satellite signals and then followed the satellites with strongest signal until satellite is out of sight.

But these elements of the phased array antenna are small and under radio-transparent shell. So there is no visible movement.

 
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The Starlink customer client stations have the phased array antenna.

So yes, some elements of these arrays are always seeking satellite signals and then followed the satellites with strongest signal until satellite is out of sight.

But these elements of the phased array antenna are small and under radio-transparent shell. So there is no visible movement.

I know, I was lightly pushing back on the parabolic association.
FWIW, all elements work together on Dishy for beam forming, it doesn't support simultaneous multispot (AFAIK).
 
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"the service" is the wording used by Scaesare. I call that vague because we are in a thread called "Starlink direct to T-Mobile phone"

again there are posts about Apple phones and Gobalstar satellites just blithely using the phrase "the service" in a thread called

Starlink direct to T-Mobile phone.​


That's what I call vague.


* An Apple phone with Tmobile service can use "Starlink direct to T-Mobile phone".
* An Android phone with Tmobile service can use "Starlink direct to T-Mobile phone"
* An new enough Apple phone with or without Tmobile service can use the apple specific globalstar emergency service.
* An Android phone of any age with or without Tmobile service can not use the apple specific globalstar emergency service.


I'm saying if you are going to mix globalstar and apple specific talk in a thread that isn't primarily about those you are going to have to qualify your statements more so than just "the service" and "the phone" and "the satellite" and "the cell network". You need to say which one of each in almost every single sentence of every post or there will be confusion.

Well... seeing as how I was quoted... (and screenshot to boot!)

The premise of my initial post was predicated on the SpaceX FCC Filing to request permission to test sat connectivity to "unmodified cell phones". Although I didn't specifically address it at the time, the implication is that this would be the T-Mobile service, as it's their spectrum SpaceX is using. The filing didn't address handsets at all, although T-Mobile supports many, including iPhones.

When @bxr140 subsequently posted and pointed out that the "unmodified" moniker was a poke at Apple, who's last 2 iPhones were engineered (as "modified' is indeed a weird term to use for that) for sat use, I was responding to that post.

So technically "Service" would have been referring to that, I suppose, but my context was much more about a handset designed to talk to cell towers being able to work with a satellite at all, as opposed to a particular vendor's offering...

Hope that provides some context for what I was talking about.
 
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