Streaming Free For a Year?

[Marsnaut]

There is a tweet somewhere by Elon saying that Starlink is not feasible for use in cars. I'm not a Twitter guru so I couldn't find it but I remember it being a reply and not a direct tweet.

 

[Knightshade]

The car does not "know" where each packet is going.

of course it does.

Every packet sent has a destination IP address.

The car does DNS resolution for the service it's trying to reach, finds an IP address that it's trying to reach and ships the packet out the default gateway for the service provider it has an IP address on.

The car doesn't know jock shot about where the packet actually goes beyond that point.

Again- sure it does. The destination IP is in the header of the packet

Surely Tesla knows where its own cloud servers are right? And it knows the addresses of any other servers the car talks to (slacker or whatever else)


So it knows outgoing packet A was diagnostic data going to their server...and it knows incoming packet B was from their OTA update servers.... and it knows packet C was from slacker radio... and so on.

So yes, they absolutely know how much data is being used for each thing. How could they not?


this might help you out-
How Do Packets Get Around? | Understanding Networks and TCP/IP | InformIT

Your workstation will then create a packet, stamp it with the destination IP address, and forward the packet to the network gateway

So the car knows where the data is going if it's going out. It doesn't know the whole route, nor does it need to... but it knows the end destination.

Likewise incoming packets have the source address in them.


The car knows where all the data is going, and where it originally came from.

You could potentially lock it down at the app/service level so that if an owner has no paid data plan then specific apps/functions are restricted from accessing while leaving other vehicle functions alone. That is doable but not as trivial as you make it sound.

10 year old hasbro-class home routers are capable of doing this with a simple GUI- so yes, it's pretty trivial.

You can even QoS this stuff trivially, which even cheap home routers have also done for many years now... so for example if bandwidth were limited it wouldn't cause the radio stream to stutter because a big OTA update is being pulled down... since, again, it already knows which traffic is which

Likewise if in the future they wanted to charge for data, and you didn't pay, it would could allow OTA updates , and maybe diagnostic and AP data because it benefits Tesla to get it, but would block anything else. That's incredibly trivial to do.

 

[voip-ninja]

of course it does.

Every packet sent has a destination IP address.





Again- sure it does. The destination IP is in the header of the packet

Surely Tesla knows where its own cloud servers are right? And it knows the addresses of any other servers the car talks to (slacker or whatever else)


So it knows outgoing packet A was diagnostic data going to their server...and it knows incoming packet B was from their OTA update servers.... and it knows packet C was from slacker radio... and so on.

So yes, they absolutely know how much data is being used for each thing. How could they not?


this might help you out-
How Do Packets Get Around? | Understanding Networks and TCP/IP | InformIT



So the car knows where the data is going if it's going out. It doesn't know the whole route, nor does it need to... but it knows the end destination.

Likewise incoming packets have the source address in them.


The car knows where all the data is going, and where it originally came from.



10 year old hasbro-class home routers are capable of doing this with a simple GUI- so yes, it's pretty trivial.

You can even QoS this stuff trivially, which even cheap home routers have also done for many years now... so for example if bandwidth were limited it wouldn't cause the radio stream to stutter because a big OTA update is being pulled down... since, again, it already knows which traffic is which

Likewise if in the future they wanted to charge for data, and you didn't pay, it would could allow OTA updates , and maybe diagnostic and AP data because it benefits Tesla to get it, but would block anything else. That's incredibly trivial to do.

The car knows what IP address it is sending the traffic to.... which is kind of meaningless from a "black that service" perspective.

How do you propose programming the car so that it knows which of the 3.7 billion publicly addressable IP addresses it can or can't send traffic to?

The car has services that run on it and those services refer to their servers with DNS entries. Those DNS entries resolve to public IPs and those IPs change all the time.

Perhaps what you meant to say is that the car could have a white-list of IP addresses or DNS names it is allowed to communicate with and all other IP address is blacklisted?

This is still a headache for Tesla... the car communicates with a lot of servers I imagine and this creates a situation in which Tesla has to do some hokey white-list/black-list thing in order to control what communications the car can do.

 

[Knightshade]

The car knows what IP address it is sending the traffic to.... which is kind of meaningless from a "black that service" perspective.

But pretty useful from a "know what traffic is for what" perspective.

Which was the original topic.

The claim was Tesla had no idea what the car was using data for, or how much it was using for any given thing.

That's obviously nonsense. It knows exactly how much data was received from its own servers and also for what purpose. And exactly how much data was sent to its own servers. And for what purpose. From each car.

Likewise it knows how much data was sent anywhere else, since it knows where it was sent, and how much was received from elsewhere, since it knows where it came from.

How do you propose programming the car so that it knows which of the 3.7 billion publicly addressable IP addresses it can or can't send traffic to?

This doesn't make much sense.

Tesla controls the entire computer in the model 3.

It can only connect to the services Tesla specifically permits.

So 99% of those IPs aren't even an option for the car to connect to.

But in the example I gave- it's still incredibly easy. Since Tesla still knows its own servers IP addresses.

So it permits traffic to/from those. And it blocks anything else. Unless you pay for a data plan.

This really, really, really is not rocket surgery.

The car has services that run on it and those services refer to their servers with DNS entries. Those DNS entries resolve to public IPs and those IPs change all the time.

Eh- not really.

Again- they know their own IPs.

Further- since the apps themselves are running on the car computer they control they also know which service is doing the talking on the car.

So if the data request came from the slacker app, it's pretty likely it was streaming radio traffic, yeah?

Ditto any other app running on the computer in the car they control the apps on

Perhaps what you meant to say is that the car could have a white-list of IP addresses or DNS names it is allowed to communicate with and all other IP address is blacklisted? This is still a headache for Tesla... the car communicates with a lot of servers I imagine and this creates a situation in which Tesla has to do some hokey white-list/black-list thing in order to control what communications the car can do

Nope, not really.

You seem to continue to greatly underestimate the amount of info, and control, Tesla has over the cars applications and their communication.

Tesla knows where its own servers are. It's not like they're running stuff off a dial-up modem that gets a new address from DHCP every few hours or something. This isn't 1997.



So anyway, let's try and make this incredibly simple-


Here's the original, incorrect, claim I was correcting-

This is precisely why they have not announced any plans. I think it is very difficult for them to differentiate exactly how much data software updates and Road Planning/mapping for EAP and FSD use up in comparison to the small amount used for streaming and google maps.

That simply makes no sense.

Tesla absolutely, and easily, can differentiate how much data is being used for software updates. Or any other specific data exchange on the car.

That's an incredibly easy thing to do when you control the computer everything is running on.


Further- since they also control the apps themselves that are allowed to run, it's incredibly simple for them to control which things can use data at all or not.

They could control that at the app level most simply. Or at the service level pretty simply. Or even at the IP level only moderately simply.


Right now it's all free... but let's say in the future for example they offer 3 options:

1) No paid data. In this case they allow OTA updates to use data, the connection of the Tesla app to the car, and logging to use data. Everything else is simply locked out of it. When you launch slacker, data is simply not available to it. Ditto things like realtime traffic. This is not, at all, hard to do.

2) Nav data only. You get the OTA and logging as above- plus the navigation app is given access to data for realtime traffic, map updates, etc... (there may be situations where this data would be required for some aspect of EAP or FSD when it exists, but that's another topic). Stuff like slacker is still locked out, but maybe you play everything off your phone via BT or a USB key so you don't need to pay for streaming radio?

3) Full data. Basically what you have today.



None of this, is at all, complicated. Really.

Now if they ever unlocked the API and allowed you to install tons of your own data-using apps- THAT would begin to make things complex.

But there's no indication whatsoever they have any intent of doing that.

And even THEN you can easily turn data on/off on a per-app basis.

Hell, everyone's smart phones can already do exactly that.

 

[FlatSix911]

The party is over for new cars purchased after July 1, 2018...

Tesla is introducing new paid ‘premium connectivity’ package to support in-car internet features of growing fleet In an email to its sales team this weekend, Tesla gave an update on the status of the internet connectivity in its fleet. All current Tesla owners and those who order a Model S, Model X, or Model 3 before July 1st will never have to pay for internet connectivity in their cars.

For vehicles ordered after July 1st, Tesla will start offering two different packages: ‘Premium Connectivity package’ and ‘Standard Connectivity package.’ As the name entails, the ‘Standard Connectivity package’ will come at no additional charge. A Tesla vehicle with this package will still have internet connectivity, but it will only be used for applications that require low amounts of data.

Specifically, we are talking about maps and navigation. Owners will still benefit from Tesla’s recently updated navigation system, but they will not have access to the satellite maps or the live traffic visualization. The routing system will still make use of the live traffic data, but drivers won’t be able to see it on the center touchscreen like the green, orange, and red lines in this screenshot:

Buyers will also have the option to go with the ‘Premium Connectivity package’. Tesla has not confirmed the price of the package yet, but they are aiming for something close to $100 per year. Under this package, maps and navigation will still have the option to show satellite maps and live traffic visualization. It will also include in-car streaming music and media, which has so far been included with apps like Slacker and Spotify. The internet browser will now be a part of the premium package along with over-the-air updates working both with WiFi and LTE connections.

Tesla also says that Model S and Model X vehicles ordered on or after July 1st will receive a year of free ‘Premium Connectivity package’. Model 3 vehicles with the premium interior, which is a $5,000 option and the only current Model 3 interior in production, will also get the same deal. (The last paragraph updated to clarify that Model S and Model X get the first year free regardless of having the premium interior package or not.) At the end of the year, they will get the option to purchase the package or revert to standard connectivity via the center touchscreen.

 

[Knightshade]

Ha...that's almost exactly what I just said they could do in the future in the post right above yours, they just combined options 2/3

Not sure why I'm smiling about it- since it's gonna cost me $100/yr now since they're clearly not sending any new invites before July 1 at this point....so, kinda hate being right