Supercharger Announcement 2013/05/30

[epley]

So don't buy a Tesla. The rest of us will sit back, enjoy our amazing cars, and charge for free! :tongue:

sorry, but all answers are dissatisfying. I personally would charge all the time free here in europe. Electricity is VERY expensive. and once these new model s will be sold used, just like s class mercedes, people will want to save money. In the long term, they are bankrupt.

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there is no car manifacturer who offeres free gasoline, forever. This just seems nonesense to me or it is all a scam.

 

[Hasse]

Your calculations are done with €0,40 per kWh. That's probably the highest rate in Europe and not realistic. It costs half of that in many European countries, at least in mine it does.

You are right however in your earlier calculation that the solar panels will not cover the electricity needed for charging. The typical solar roof on a Supercharger-station has 100 panels (I counted them in the picture above), which in Europe will produce on average 20,000 kWh per year. If the average charge is 60 kWh (the batteries will not always be empty) that covers 333 charges, or barely one a day. That will not be enough.

But look at it this way: with an average price of €0,20 per kWh the extra charges will cost Tesla €12 per charge. The average driver will use a supercharger maybe 5-10 times a year (some will never, others will use it more often). Even if Tesla had to pay for all that electricity, which it does not, it would cost Tesla €60 to €120 per car per year. For a car that has been sold for an average of €80,000 with a profit margin of 25% (€20,000). So that worst case scenario of a yearly cost of €60 to €120 will definitely not bankrupt Tesla. And remember: the existence of the free supercharging network means Tesla will sell more cars, which means more cars with a €20,000 margin.

Agree. I pay 0.12 EUR/kWh for electric power and 1,65 EUR for diesel (and at least up here speculations are that the price of diesel might double in 2015 when the new EU emissions legislation for ships takes effect, which will mean a lot more heavy users of diesel instead of "heavier" oil -> shortage).

For some locations in between cities, why not wind turbines? A 500kW turbine averages 1000MWh/year up here. That is 20.000 refills a year which is plenty.

 

[lolachampcar]

Thanks Brian..

Other points from the call.
All cars have SC capability. It is a software enable on 60KW cars.
The off grid storage SC locations can operate in the event of a "Zombie Apocalypse" (not my words, Elon's ). Apparently they store solar throughout the week and it is consumed mostly on Fridays and Sundays (from actual usage patterns).

 

[100thMonkey]

a remarkable number only have 30A TT30's for which there is no Tesla adapter.

RV parks have 50 Amp service

 

[gregincal]

@brianman, thanks for the transcript. Thank goodness that Tesla isn't going down the battery swap rabbit hole (IMO). Strength in (SC) numbers is good enough; given the upcoming density of both stations and ports, I'd just go charging in short bursts as needed when on a road trip rather than juice up to full at fewer stops.

It's a bit early to say that. The announcement that everybody is debating whether it will be about battery swapping or not is the June 20th announcement. Not saying whether it will be about battery swapping or not, but we always knew this announcement was about supercharging.

 

[domenick]

There will be a Gen III sedan *and* Gen III SUV.

We've known this for a year. It gets overlooked a lot, though.

 

[100thMonkey]

It's understandable that Tesla is going for proving the technology with enabling long distance travel and I applaud the announcement. the progress is encouraging and the higher speed charging is great news.

that said, I have two areas of growing frustrations with respect to Tesla's approach to a charging network.

1. when it comes to early adoption of EV's, the novelty of long distance travel wears off pretty quickly and the need for fast charging on the go within metro areas as well as remote areas, off the main corridors, becomes the more common need, even with a large battery pack. it's well understood that keeping the battery cool and keeping it middle SOC is best, both of which leave the battery somewhat range limited. to keep the Tesla at half mast and still allow spontaneous, spir of the moment long range ability is going to take Super Chargers within metro areas. cold, elevation gain, wind, rain, snow, high AC use etc, all vacillate, making predicting charging needs a bit tricky. Fast Charging in Metro areas will likely turn out to be more of a need than city to city travel, even with the 85kW, because that is where the bulk of the miles are driven. When it comes to vacationing in WA state, a lot of it happens a good distance from the arterioles, over mountain passes, in remote areas like Lake Chelan or the Olympic Peninsula. The most common RV hook up in WA state appears to be the TT30 receptacle, something Tesla does not offer an adapter to. The proliferation of CHAdeMO quick chargers is yet another common charging option that we currently have no way of using. Tesla either needs to put in a lot more Superchargers or offer CHAdeMO and TT30 adapters so that we can truly have the kind of unfettered freedom that is Tesla's goal.

2. the other main thing that bugs me is, even looking at the long term map, it feels like the North West, one of the hottest EV markets in the US, is getting seriously shorted when it comes to planned Superchargers. we need the kind of saturation that is planned for the lower half of CA! It looks like we will see 5 SC's eventually but only along I-5 and 90, that leaves out the entire Olympic Peninsula and large chunks of Easter WA,where last weekend I had to charge at 12A for 64 hours to get home. It's hard not to feel a bit of resentment about this given how loyal this area has been to Tesla. the conclusion to both my points is the same, we need a CHAdeMO and TT30 adapter ASAP to fill in all the holes! pretty please!!!!

 

[brianman]

Agree. I fully sympathize with those in other states who want to see even one supercharger, but right now California has the highest density of deliveries by far, and adding only a few more here could basically complete one large piece of the puzzle.

My recollection is that "by far" is "way wrong" on a per capita basis.

 

[gregincal]

My recollection is that "by far" is "way wrong" on a per capita basis.

Yes, but per capita makes zero difference when you're talking about location of superchargers. Teslas per square mile is all that counts.

 

[NigelM]

a remarkable number only have 30A TT30's.....

Source? I've never come across an RV site that didn't have 14-50s; it's by far the most popular plug for the RVs out there.

 

[gregincal]

Fast Charging in Metro areas will likely turn out to be more of a need than city to city travel, even with the 85kW, because that is where the bulk of the miles are driven.

Sorry, I still see this as a fringe need. If I drove more than 200 miles around a city before returning home I'd have to shoot myself. While there may be special cases where they might come in handy sometimes, everybody needs superchargers all the time to travel between cities.

 

[brianman]

Request to moderators:

When merging announcement discussion posts in the future, please put the "speculation prior to the actual announcement" into one thread and "announcement info and discussion" in another thread. Having the actual announcement information on page 22 or whatever is a bit stupid and (personally) annoying.

Merging them like this just makes a big mess. Makes me not interested in bothering to record transcripts in the future since they are barely accessible when merged like this.


Request to radinator:

Please include edit the OP to include these links with the notation "actual announcement info":
Supercharger Announcement 2013/05/30 - Page 19
Supercharger Announcement 2013/05/30 - Page 22

Update: Thanks for taking care of that radinator.



Thanks.

 

[Rodolfo Paiz]

80KWH/400Km=0,2KWH/Km -->20KWH/100Km, 0,4 EUR/KWH --->8EUR/100Km

Diesel: car: 6l/100Km ----> 1,4 EUR/litre --->8,4EUR/100Km

That comparison is so skewed and biased, I'm not sure how you can discuss it with a straight face. You've made the electric rate as high as possible, but many Europeans pay 0,16 or 0,20 for electricity instead of your putative 0,40. Your value is probably twice as high as the average. You've also made the ICE as optimistic as possible... the cars getting 6L/100Km in fuel consumption are compacts and small sedans, nothing remotely comparable in size, luxury, or performance to the Model S.

I'll give you a real comparison:

Car #1: My wife has a BMW 535GT that is within 3cm (at most!) of my Model S in every single dimension, and it's also within 100 pounds of total weight. She has the smallest and most fuel-efficient engine available from BMW (300HP, 300 lbft) along with low-rolling-resistance tires. She consumes $0.30/mile (15 mpg, $4.30/gal) when driving gently... and even when flogging the car (which eats a lot more fuel than this!) her best times from 0-60 are a very laid-back 9.1 seconds.

Car #2: My Performance Model S (416 hp, 443 lbft) gets driven hard, and I average 400 Wh/mile. I pay $0.12/KWh total, so I consume $0.05/mile in energy. I get 0-60 in sub-five-second times without breaking a sweat... and if I drive gently (like she does) then I average about 320 Wh/mile and get an even better $0.04/mile in energy costs.

This comparison matches up two cars of nearly identical size, shape, and weight, from competing marques, aimed at the same type of consumer and with the same level of trim. Furthermore, this comparison is still biased in favor of the ICE because of the small engine and the gentle driving style.

And in the end, the ICE burns (no pun intended) through 6x to 8x more money per mile than my Model S.

 

[YoungStranger]

Fast Charging in Metro areas will likely turn out to be more of a need than city to city travel, even with the 85kW, because that is where the bulk of the miles are driven.

Agree that there will be a demand for city superchargers. It opens up the market for people living in condos, flats, tenaments, high rises etc, who only have street parking to feasibly own EVs.

This is the beauty of the integrated approach that Tesla is adopting... there are so many ways to play and so many ways to generate revenue .. grid storage, smart grids, integration with retail outlets, licensing, taxi servicing etc. Tesla can own superchargers, but if I own a classy restaurant, I might want to purchase a system, and use it for customers or even to store cheaper off peak energy. They can licence the systems to other manufacturers... e.g Mercedes might use superchargers, but their customers may pay a premium whereas Tesla owners can get it for free (another way to differerentiate a Model S from Gen 3 owners who may pay fee). Whatever works they can do

 

[SFOTurtle]

Yes, but per capita makes zero difference when you're talking about location of superchargers. Teslas per square mile is all that counts.

Yes, better said, "by far." :wink:

 

[Rodolfo Paiz]

when it comes to early adoption of EV's, the novelty of long distance travel wears off pretty quickly and the need for fast charging on the go within metro areas as well as remote areas, off the main corridors, becomes the more common need, even with a large battery pack. it's well understood that keeping the battery cool and keeping it middle SOC is best, both of which leave the battery somewhat range limited. to keep the Tesla at half mast and still allow spontaneous, spir of the moment long range ability is going to take Super Chargers within metro areas.

1. Very, very few people will try to keep their Model S at 50% charge. Most will do a standard charge and forget about it.

2. Very, very few people need "spur of the moment long range ability." Those who do, will either fully charge their battery or not buy a Tesla.

Between #1 and #2, I think the probability of Tesla agreeing with your perception is zero, or very close to it.

 

[100thMonkey]

1. Very, very few people will try to keep their Model S at 50% charge. Most will do a standard charge and forget about it.

2. Very, very few people need "spur of the moment long range ability." Those who do, will either fully charge their battery or not buy a Tesla.

Between #1 and #2, I think the probability of Tesla agreeing with your perception is zero, or very close to it.

didn't Tesla just say recently that so many folks are leaving their car near 50% SOC that the next update is going to encourage it as an option? not sure where you are coming up with your presumptions? more and more I'm treating the car like an ICE, filling it up on occasion, driving whenever I want and not thinking about it too much. I go for days without charging it sometimes. I do have two EV's and only room for one at a time in the garage, so that could be effecting my perception of this.

 

[Johan]

Loving the 120kW news!!!

I called it on March 6th, after speaking with Elon about it that evening. Don't believe me? See this post: Tesla Norway Event (Oslo March 6th) - Page 5

 

[gregincal]

didn't Tesla just say recently that so many folks are leaving their car near 50% SOC that the next update is going to encourage it as an option? not sure where you are coming up with your presumptions? more and more I'm treating the car like an ICE, filling it up on occasion, driving whenever I want and not thinking about it too much. I go for days without charging it sometimes. I do have two EV's and only room for one at a time in the garage, so that could be effecting my perception of this.

No, they said to charge it to the amount you need. One of the beauty's of an electric car is to not have to stop to "refuel" on a regular basis. I fail to see why anybody would pay $8,000 extra for an 85kWh battery and then take extra time to find a supercharger and wait to charge simply because they didn't slide the charging percentage higher. That's a false economy if I've ever heard one.

 

[SFOTurtle]

1. Very, very few people will try to keep their Model S at 50% charge. Most will do a standard charge and forget about it.

2. Very, very few people need "spur of the moment long range ability." Those who do, will either fully charge their battery or not buy a Tesla.

Between #1 and #2, I think the probability of Tesla agreeing with your perception is zero, or very close to it.

I agree with everything you said. Perhaps I am one of the very few who keep their SOC in the 50-70% range as a general rule, but from reading this forum there seem to be a number of us. With 4.5, that's pretty easy to do. But for last weekend when I had a long roadtrip, I got a full charge before leaving my house and then also got a full charge the night before I left my hotel to come home. Very simple. I've been getting along just fine without having a SC anywhere near where I live, and I live in the vicinity of a large metro area.

In my 27 years of driving, not once have I encountered a scenario where I needed to go on a long roadtrip spur of the moment with not even a few hours of advance notice, but perhaps I'm just living a boring life.