Supercharger "pirate adapters"?

[Rocky_H]

There's one flaw in your analogy. There are now more universal specs (USB BC 1.2 and USB Power Delivery) that now defines a way to more universally charge devices at a higher wattage than the original USB specs. That's why USB chargers and certain USB ports on computers can both charge an iPhone and a Samsung at a higher wattage.

The evolution in USB charging speeds is more akin to the increases in speed we're seeing with CCS and Chademo. Originally they were 50kW, now we're seeing 100kW, 175kW, 350kW. There are differences in the cables (like liquid cooled), but the same applies to USB.

Yes, I am aware of those newer faster charging specs like USB-C.

So yes it's not universal universal but it's not as proprietary as you make it out to be.

But my point was that there continue to be two very solid different but good phone charging types, with no indications that either is going to take over or die or resolve into any one single plug, which seems like a very good example of how Superchargers and CCS seem very likely to continue to coexist for a very very long time, without either dying.

 

[bedoig]

Tesla plugs predate CCS and J1772. Tesla came up with their plug out of necessity, not to snub other standards or manufacturers. You've got it all bass ackwards.

You're talking about the DC part of CCS I assume, not saying the Tesla plug predated standalone J1772? I didn't think the current Tesla plug came out until Model S, but admittedly not totally sure.

 

[Saghost]

You're talking about the DC part of CCS I assume, not saying the Tesla plug predated standalone J1772? I didn't think the current Tesla plug came out until Model S, but admittedly not totally sure.

Correct. The original roadsters do predate the standard, and it continues to be an annoyance for owners.

I've read that when Tesla saw the J1772, they weren't happy with the interface - it has to be clocked to a specific angle and aligned precisely, and there's nothing in the port that guides you to that. It's also much bigger than the hand, so the handle has to be back behind it and makes plugging in a less natural action. The pin design seems to be somewhat fragile.

So Tesla decided to fix all of that - the Telsa connection is guided into alignment and clocking by the port, and the plug is small enough to make it the handle, and they changed the contact sizes based on expected current flow and gave them a lot more interconnection support in the plug.

The Tesla plug is J1772 - that is, it's got exactly the same set of pins, and uses exactly the same communication, which is why a simple adapter that's nothing but wires and plugs can make them interchangeable. Tesla just improved the plug end itself to make it easier to use and more durable. (And then they added DCFC through the same port and pins for user convenience.)

 

[bluetinc]

I thought the roadsters could also just use a simple hardwired adapter to plug a J1772 into it? It's also what allows me to plug my S into a roadster charger. Looking at the original J1772, it's dated 2001 predating even Tesla. -Peter

Correct. The original roadsters do predate the standard, and it continues to be an annoyance for owners.

I've read that when Tesla saw the J1772, they weren't happy with the interface - it has to be clocked to a specific angle and aligned precisely, and there's nothing in the port that guides you to that. It's also much bigger than the hand, so the handle has to be back behind it and makes plugging in a less natural action. The pin design seems to be somewhat fragile.

So Tesla decided to fix all of that - the Telsa connection is guided into alignment and clocking by the port, and the plug is small enough to make it the handle, and they changed the contact sizes based on expected current flow and gave them a lot more interconnection support in the plug.

The Tesla plug is J1772 - that is, it's got exactly the same set of pins, and uses exactly the same communication, which is why a simple adapter that's nothing but wires and plugs can make them interchangeable. Tesla just improved the plug end itself to make it easier to use and more durable. (And then they added DCFC through the same port and pins for user convenience.)

 

[Saghost]

I thought the roadsters could also just use a simple hardwired adapter to plug a J1772 into it? It's also what allows me to plug my S into a roadster charger. Looking at the original J1772, it's dated 2001 predating even Tesla. -Peter

Interesting. I have no first hand experience. I'd read threads where the owners were trying to retrofit a J1772 into the car with limited success, but that was a while back. My understanding was that Tesla used a prior standard that was later changed into J1772, but that the two didn't communicate the same and aren't actually compatible, but I've never dug into it that deeply.

 

[Saghost]

I don't see any easy way to filter by exact charging rate on the L3 sites though but you're welcome to look for yourself (and lots of busy SC or urban locations rarely get you much over 50kw anyway on the tesla side)

Tesla absolutely has a huge lead in installed locations- but I've found no evidence at all to support the idea their future building is going at a faster pace as you suggested....with both companies having a history (and Tesla a longer one) of missing promised future install numbers)

As you say, I'm having a lot of trouble finding anything that collates all the EA installations at all, let alone sorting out the 50 kW stations from the 150/350kW stations. Both Plugshare and EA will happily show you details on a specific location near you or another spot on the map (though even there the stall details are hit or miss.)

To be honest, I missed the press release last week about 105 sites - the last I'd seen was twenty something sites. So EA is definitely moving faster than I thought, finally. With the twenty something I thought they'd opened, doing analysis didn't seem useful or necessary.

Since July 1st, according to the Supercharge.info data, Tesla has opened 80 US locations, with a total of 931 stalls. I think that may include some that are reopened after expanding them, and I'm not sure how to filter those out.

That's just over twice what EA has opened in that time, assuming the 465 from the press release is the number of charging stalls available (which I think is likely. The point about having two cables per space is well taken, but I don't think the average new EA location is only 2 parking spaces, while 4 seems quite reasonable.)

So again, even with limited data on the EA side and assuming all their chargers are comparable, Tesla is opening more for now. There's certainly no guarantee that will continue into the future, but Tesla has made aggressive rollout plans clear, and I'm sure they'll continue building stations for the foreseeable future.

Hopefully EA will get their act sorted out and we'll see more construction from them faster in the future. And hopefully someone somewhere will find a way to assemble the EA data in a way that's easily manipulated. I wouldn't mind being wrong about the install rates at some point in the future.

 

[Knightshade]

Ooooh, you're wanting to limit this to fast charging only? Then we're going to have to go into the weeds on this analogy about what current levels are supported in the official USB 2.0 specifications that most power blocks are built to. (I'll give you a hint: it's not fast charging.)

Uh. no.

I'm wanting to limit it to why your analogy sucks.

Let me try and make is simpler.

Phones:

Person A has an iphone with a lightning connector
Person B has an old iphone with a 30 pin connector
Person C has an old android with a miniUSB
Person D has a new android with USB-C

all of them came with a wall charger from the manufacturer that provides a USB port as it's output port.

all of them can plug all of those phones into any other of the 4 persons phone charger with a simple adapter.

Charging speeds (as I mentioned already) will vary- but all will charge and work fine. Slow chargers will work fine on all the phones with an adapter. Fast chargers will work fine on all the phones with an adapter (though again not all might benefit from the higher speed)

Still with me?


Now- EVs in the US.

Person A has a Tesla Model 3 with a Tesla connector (the subject of this forum topic)
Person B has some other brand of EV with a ChaDemo connector.
Person C has some other brand of EV with a CCS connector.


All of them have some public chargers that use a proprietary output port (Tesla, ChaDemo, or CCS)... right?

Now- here's why your analogy does not work

Because, you see, unlike the phones, all these people can not all use the same charger via an adapter

Person A can't use ChaDemo or CCS. At all.

Persons B and C can't use Tesla. At all.

Hope this clears up why your analogy doesn't work.

The majority of those USB wall warts only supply 0.8 amps or 1.0 amps, because that is all that the USB 2.0 spec actually allows

Uh....what?

USB - Wikipedia

Battery Charging Specification 1.2:[23] with increased current of 1.5 A on charging ports for unconfigured devices, allowing High Speed communication while having a current up to 1.5 A and allowing a maximum current of 5 A

But that doesn't change the reasons your analogy doesn't work.

The lack of adapters to be able to use any car with any charger, while you CAN use any phone with any charger, is why your analogy does not work.

If you want fast charge with a phone, frequently someone's USB power block on the wall won't support that

Why not?

I fast charge my iphone on friends android USB chargers all the time with the right cable.

But again that doesn't change the reasons your analogy doesn't work.

The lack of adapters to be able to use any car with any charger, while you CAN use any phone with any charger, is why your analogy does not work.

, (and even a lot of USB cables don't have thick enough wire gauge to support that)

Unless you're running like 10 foot plus cables or something this is an imaginary issue (and even then it's an imaginary one unless you're using ancient, cheap, cables you got with a free phone years ago or something)

But again that doesn't change the reasons your analogy doesn't work.

The lack of adapters to be able to use any car with any charger, while you CAN use any phone with any charger, is why your analogy does not work.

 

[wwu123]

Previous poster was trying to say:
"This resulted in the Battery Charging Spec – BC 1.1 (later revised to BC 1.2). With this spec, the USB-IF blessed battery charging as a legitimate application for USB.

It’s important to note that BC-1.1 was released as an Engineering Change Notice (ECN) to USB 2.0 and it significantly deviated from the sanctions of USB 2.0. As per USB 2.0, any USB device could be classified as either low power (5 V @ 100 mA) or high power (5 V @ 500 mA). "

But really that's beside the point...

 

[SwaggerWagon]

So you have no idea what the numbers are, but you are "pretty sure" they say what you imagine they do...

...I've found no evidence at all to support the idea their future building is going at a faster pace as you suggested....with both companies having a history (and Tesla a longer one) of missing promised future install numbers)

You sure about the higher future install rate?

Tesla installed 167 supercharger locations in the US in all of 2018 (much lower than they originally predicted, but they badly miss their claimed SC install targets every year)

Electrify America alone shows 120 non-tesla fast charge locations in the US and they only started opening em in July 2018.

Last time I checked 167 > 120. Also, you found “no evidence at all to support the idea their (Electify America) future building is going at a faster pace as you suggested....” You realized that you just self pwned, right? You have no evidence at all to support the idea that EA will surpass Tesla in DCFC installation. You’re just making random statements to try to backup your claims - which have no evidentiary support at all, nor a precedent to go off of - which seem biased for one reason or another. Show some actual proof, otherwise “So you have no idea what the numbers are, but you are "pretty sure" they say what you imagine they do...” sums up your case pretty perfectly.

 

[SwaggerWagon]

Still Tesla charge port is not a standard and will not continue. Betamax was better than VHS back in the day but VHS became dominate and BETA died no matter what Sony did.

VHS was not a standard of any sort. It won over Beta because it sold better, due to the porn industry adopting it. In your analogy, Tesla is more like VHS since it is selling far better.

Also, Tesla didn’t choose to not use a standard - they chose to create one. There was no standard at the time it could handle power levels anywhere near what they needed, so they created a standard that could. “The easiest way to predict the future is to create it”. SAE chose to create their own, separate standard, and it’s only now finally catching up. Will it surpass Tesla by virtue of being a standard? Maybe... will it not because Tesla sells by far the most BEVs? Maybe... only time will tell.

 

[Knightshade]

Last time I checked 167 > 120.

You necroed a post from 4 months ago for that?

Even sillier- you missed where I pointed out Tesla had done 167 installs in all of 2018 while EA had done 120 of them in just the second half of 2018

Spoiler- EAs rate per month of work was significantly higher than Teslas in 2018.

Also, you found “no evidence at all to support the idea their (Electify America) future building is going at a faster pace as you suggested....” You realized that you just self pwned, right?

Well, no, since that's not what I actually said

Here's my actual words you apparently didn't read very closely-

Tesla absolutely has a huge lead in installed locations- but I've found no evidence at all to support the idea their future building is going at a faster pace as you suggested

That statement, very clearly is about Tesla, not EA.

It's somewhere between weird, and outright deceptive, you tried to misquote it by chopping off the word TESLA at the start and inserting an Electrify America despite my not putting those words in that statement at all.

Self own indeed.

You can tell You have no evidence at all to support the idea that EA will surpass Tesla in DCFC installation.

Probably because I never said that either.

You’re just making random statements to try to backup your claims

You appear to have us confused.

At least when I quote things you said, I quote things you actually said

Maybe give that a try next time?

 

[Knightshade]

VHS was not a standard of any sort.

Uh, yes, VHS was (is) absolutely a standard.

One developed by JVC and released in 1976 in Japan.

Sony had its own proprietary standard, which was Betamax....

Sony pushed for the Japanese Ministry of International Trade and Industry to adopt it as "the" standard for home video... which would have meant everyone else paying Sony to use it since it wasn't an open standard.

JVC countered with their VHS standard, which WAS open, and thus others could build machines using it cheaply in comparison.

Eventually Panasonic, Sharp, Mitsubishi, and Hitachi all supported JVCs idea, not wanting sony to have an advantage by owning the "winning" standard.

It won over Beta because it sold better, due to the porn industry adopting it.

That's a popular urban legend- but unsupported by any actual data or evidence.

The reason VHS won is largely attributed to 2 things:

1) Beta cost more-a lot more- roughly 3 times more for a machine and

2) Beta launched with a 1 hour max recording capacity. Too short for movies. JVCs VHS did 2 hours. Enough for movies. (and RCA would be along shortly with 4 hours on VHS machines to handle things like football games)


Betamax remained significantly more expensive year after year, and It wasn't until the early 1980s that Beta caught up to VHS on recording times, and by then the fight was largely lost for them, with 75% of the market being VHS already.

If you want more evidence debunking the porn myth I suggest this link-
VHS vs Betamax: How influential was the pornography industry in the format war?


Several posts reiterate the facts I've told you (that it was mainly about recording length and price) with sourced links backing those facts up....then the answer near the bottom more directly debunks the porn aspect by pointing out these facts:

A) Porn was also available on Beta (with evidence and links to that fact)

B) Porn was only a tiny fraction of sales in the total home video market during the time the VCR format wars were going on compared to "regular" content

 

[P85_DA]

A) Porn was also available on Beta (with evidence and links to that fact)

B) Porn was only a tiny fraction of sales in the total home video market during the time the VCR format wars were going on compared to "regular" content

Ahh yes...I remember those days

 

[mrElbe]

Interesting observation: Central and South America held on to the Beta standard for many more years.

Back on topic. EA can possibly install charging stations faster than Tesla BUT when have you seen an EA station with 20 stalls or more ?. Also the simplicity of the Tesla charging experience is far superior. Plug in and it works. No cards to swipe, buttons to push, phone calls to make ...

 

[EVDRVN]

Based on total cars sold this quarter that do not use a Tesla plug I wonder who will be using all of these.

 

[Knightshade]

Based on total cars sold this quarter that do not use a Tesla plug it would see there is not much motivation to increase numbers.

VW doesn't even officially sell a BEV in most states (the egolf is a compliance car- only sold in 10 states- California, Connecticut, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Oregon, Vermont, and Washington D.C.)


EAs rollout of large #s of charging stations isn't about selling CURRENT cars, since they have virtually none to sell.

It's about-

A) Part of their settlement/apology over the diesel scandal

and

B) An attempt by VW to, once they actually get their large # of announced BEVs to market in the next couple of years, be able to say out of the gate they have a nationwide charging network to support them.... something it's a lot easier for them to do ahead of time since they have mountains of 'spare' cash compared to what Tesla did when they began rolling out cars/superchargers.


Thanks to the fact they're rolling out stations nearly all other coming BEVs can also use they also gain a potential revenue stream from any companies future EVs (except I suppose most Teslas if no US adapters come along).

 

[ralph142]

I’ve always wondered if vw would sell their own ccs—>Tesla adaptor

 

[MorrisonHiker]

I’ve always wondered if vw would sell their own ccs—>Tesla adaptor

Elon invited any manufacturer to use the Tesla Supercharger network years ago. They just need to help pay for the Tesla Supercharger network if they are going to make cars that can actually use it.

 

[ralph142]

Elon invited any manufacturer to use the Tesla Supercharger network years ago. They just need to help pay for the Tesla Supercharger network if they are going to make cars that can actually use it.

indeed, but they won't make any money off of that, as vw potentially would if they made a ccs adapter for the three.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

indeed, but they won't make any money off of that, as vw potentially would if they made a ccs adapter for the three.

As I said before, if another manufacturer wants to use the Supercharger network, they will have to pay to use the Supercharger network. Creating a CCS adapter would require them to pay Tesla for access.

Tesla has already released a CCS adapter in Europe so it's only a matter of time before they release it in other countries.