Supercharging Nightmare Begins

[FlatSix911]

I believe that Tesla said it best...

 

[Davetp]

I have read the 110 only gives about 3 miles per charging hour. It would seem DaveTP is getting 3 times that with his converter.

With the 110 outlet in my parking lot I was getting 4 mi/hr.

 

[Tic-tac-toe]

I believe that Tesla said it best...
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Tesla said that selling to suburbanites/people with garages in 2015. They certainly are not saying that selling their cars to urbanites in 2018. Bring on the urban chargers.

 

[Peteski]

You know, that’s like saying that gas stations were never intended for daily refueling. The real issue here that will be very hard to solve is getting it to charge faster. And faster.

In reality, how can you expect from a lot of people to have a charger at home? Especially in SF/Bay Area where most can’t afford to buy a home. I live in a residential building (not SF) that has a few chargers installed, but that’s also pretty rare here so we are considered lucky. If all residents had an electric car, how would we all ever be able to charge overnight? Sure, the building could always install more, but that also seems far fetched right now.

Or, are you saying that only people with the means to install a charger at home should buy a Tesla and the rest can just go screw themselves? that’s a funky statement right there that I won’t go too much into.

Edit: one of my friends actually returned his Model X because of this. He drives a lot and his home charger was too slow to recharge over night to the range he needed daily, but supercharges in the area were always packed. What would you tell him?

No, all I'm saying is that if ALL Tesla owners did ALL their charging on Superchargers then we would be lining up around the block to charge our cars.

Those people, like the OP, who are unable to charge at home should seriously consider whether or not to buy an EV right now or at least suck up the inconvenience of having to wait in turn to charge at an SC instead of complaining about Model 3s using them!

 

[Davetp]

I apologize for my stupid question here, but where is the Tesla store in Corte Madera charging their cars now ? I was hoping to use the Corte Madera location to charge on the way to the Presidio.

Hi, I am very curious about this as I currently plug into 120v a lot of times. So does this just go into 120v and covert on the fly? Simple as that?
Is this the unit you are using? Quick 220 Systems: Model A220-20D 20 Amp Power Supply Straight Blade Outlet

I would be happy to get up to 9 miles compared to the 3 or 4 I am getting now. Plus this is mobile and I can take where ever I go. Thank you for the information

That is the model I have. I was lucky enough to have access to two different 110 volt outlets that are out of phase with each oth

I have the kit that comes with the two 25 feet extension cables.

 

[mxnym]

You don't need to convert to 220 because all Tesla chargers can connect directly to 120. Your converter box doesn't magically create more power because it converts to 220 from 110. It just halves the current when it doubles the voltage, so you end up with the same power. Minus the inevitable losses of the conversion itself.

If you haven't gathered from the other responses to the poster you were responding to (and/or responses to those responses), this system takes two separate 110 circuits on separate phases and connects them together the same way a 220 outlet would. It isn't a conversion with losses, and it does increase charge speed because you cannot plug your vehicle into two separate circuits at the same time otherwise.

You should be able to charge anywhere. Stone Age car owners don’t have fueling restrictions. Neither should evs. Tesla’s supercharging network has to match production growth.

Yeah, they do have restrictions, at the very least, there are multiple wholesale clubs with discount gas pumps that are members only, and you have to pay to be a member. Arguably, "free supercharging" (whether lifetime or limited per annum) is a discount only available to a select group of people, and the ability to use it could have been reasonably restricted by geolocation for all new members going forward at any point in time. Paid supercharging, on the other hand, could still happen anywhere, just like paid charging at third party chargers and normal retail gas stations.

 

[gnuarm]

I was pleasantly surprised at the insurance rate I got for our MS P100D, too. MUCH lower than I expected but I shopped around. There was also a huge difference between insurance companies.

Also, we use the MS mostly for road trips, 300 miles+: I always find it puzzling why navigation always suggests multiple stops <30 minutes each. Annoying. Who drives like that? We usually stop once for an hour+ for a meal and a full charge, no different than when we used an ICE.

That is exactly what I like to do. In fact, last night I was returning from a business trip with a colleague which could have been done with no charging and had to stop to charge because we hadn't started with a full battery (I always want to say "tank"). I don't have a charging port at the house yet, so I wanted to get a pretty full charge as long as we were stopping. We went into the Wawa to get a sandwich and ate standing up. Even with that by the time we came back out it had been 45 minutes and I had 220 miles.

The problem with trying to drive much over 200 miles between charges isn't the car or the battery, it's the chargers. If you can reach a charger at 150 miles and the next one is 260 miles, skipping the 150 mile charger is not a good idea. When I drive to TN from here there is a charger at Wytheville, the mid point where I used to get gas, 230 miles from my start. With the winter cold I'm not willing to chance it to get there without an intermediate stop. The next leg is 200 miles to Knoxville which works. The restaurants in Wytheville suck, so instead I motor 200 miles from Lexington to Bristol where the food is good. Still, this is all rather awkward requiring three stops instead of one stop with the ICE. I'd be better able to tell people charging is not a big deal if it were only 2 stops.

When the chargers are spaced 50 miles apart or less the options for using your range optimally will be much better. That's why we need more chargers on trip routes. Apparently Tesla agrees with me because even on highways in rural areas they have chargers as close together as 20 miles. Check out Martinsburg, WV (a very small city) near Hagerstown, MD. Oddly enough they have none in Frederick, MD which could clearly use a bank for urban charging if nothing else.

 

[Dre78]

Plenty of food for thought in this thread. Thank you for all the views, ideas, and criticisms!

And thanks especially to @ironwaffle for reminding us to be proactive/reactive in a positive manner. Let's reach out to change what we can locally, gaining momentum to address at higher and higher levels.

 

[nuronce]

Maybe I am guessing wrong, but you must be starting with quite a bit of remaining battery before you charge? What size battery pack do you have? The maximum you should be able to get on a wall charger is about 45 miles for each hour if you have the largest optional car charger of 72 amps and charging at that highest rate. So you should get about 120 miles plus or minus a bit ???

Low 50s/hr
100D
You right its less than 6 hrs full charge but I never charge more than half. So if I go to the mall/restaurant with charging I fill it free...I drive about 10mi per day or less. Work/kids school all in about a 2 mile radius

 

[gnuarm]

In a free market, shortages only happen when prices are artificially kept down.

Solution? Raise prices until there aren't shortages. Use the extra capital you make from high prices and use it to build more stalls. When there aren't shortages anymore, lower the prices again.

Problem solved.

Uh, that's just a matter of nomenclature. Raising prices doesn't change the shortage, it just means people stop asking for the good or service because of the price. The need is still there and the supply is not higher.

Tesla can build all the Superchargers they want if they decide to build them. They keep promising 100% growth in chargers each year because it is a great sound bite and promotes sales of cars. But they continue growing the network at the same rate which is around 40% per year world wide.

 

[gnuarm]

The 15 amp 120 plug will limit the charger to 12 amps. So that would be 120*15=1440 watts. Or 1.44kWh per hour. Model X gets about 333 wh/mile. So that would be about 4 miles/hour.

The 20 amp 120 plug is limited to 16 amps. That would be 16*120=1920 watts. Or about 6 miles/hour.

The most the converter could draw from a standard NEMA plug would be 20 amps. That would be 2400 watts. Or about 7 miles/hour.

Model 3 gets about 250 wh/mile, so if that is the car he drives it would be more like 6, 8, and 9.6 miles/hour for the above three scenarios.

When you estimate charging rates, take into account that something in the car loses around 400 watts off the top when you charge from AC. So a 1.44 kW power source provides more like 1 kW and so more like 3 mph which is what my X typically shows but sometimes only 2 (I assume it's close to 2.5 and so varies with small changes in voltage, cable losses, ect). As you consider higher wattage circuits this loss matters less.

 

[gnuarm]

gnuarm, never say never. The model 3s in Europe will have a CCS port only and compatible with all the widely available CCS chargers.

What good does that do anyone in the US???

 

[gnuarm]

Electrify America is how. Porsche, BMW, ect will support fast CCS charging. And Electrify America is rolling out their fast CCS chargers. But they will have a ways to catch up with Tesla's Supercharger network in terms of number of locations, and number of high speed chargers.

Yes, I've seen a graph of expected network growth for the next five years or so and it will take nearly that long for the other networks to equal Tesla's current network. So they aren't sitting still, but they aren't exactly exploding either. Still, this is why I think Tesla needs to stay well ahead of the pack.

I think for now the reason for buying Tesla cars are as much the cars as the charging network. But that will quickly change as the big iron gets into the market with equally good cars that appeal to the market. Then the chargers will be the thing that separates the men from the boys. But in a few years when the rest of the market achieves a level of charging network that is practical Tesla will be given a run for their money. This will be the point when they are producing their second post-model 3 product, likely the pickup (I estimate 2 years per new product).

If Tesla hasn't significantly grown the charging network by then I fully expect the inherent advantages of the big iron companies might in the market will pull a huge percentage of buyers away and Tesla will lose their place in the market. Let's face it, Tesla really doesn't know what they are doing in building cars.... or I should say, Elon Musk doesn't know what he is doing. He is getting OJT. Maybe in four years he will have made all the mistakes he needs to learn from, but without dominance in the charger domain Tesla will have a much harder time competing. I'd like to see the charging network grow 10 fold in the next 4 years which would be around 80% a year growth for four years. Those lit up Tesla chargers need to become nearly omnipresent to make the general public comfortable with owning an all-electric vehicle. It's going to become about the "image". Tesla has a lead there and can capitalize on it or lose it.

 

[gnuarm]

Now that gave me a chuckle. This early adopter had no superchargers and relied on public charging, extension cords, and a ton of adapters for this early adopter. Waiting to supercharge is a "late adopter" to some of us -- who also saw this coming.

What has me pleasantly surprised years later is that the superchargers I use the most, 1/2 way to my cabin in Hope BC, expanded from 6 to 10 stalls well before it even started to get close to being full, such as on long weekends. I understand California is a whole different ballpark, but up here Tesla keeps adding more and more, and even 12 "urban" 72 kW ones to a mall parking lot a few blocks from my office, and none come even close to being full yet -- knock wood! -- because we all know it's coming -- and I'm glad it's no longer free for anyone new.

When it comes to early adopters can anyone here beat Ed Begley Jr? That guy is an EV superhero!

 

[gnuarm]

If you're not going to install an adequate 240V circuit, don't buy the car. Or if you do buy the car, don't complain about how long it takes to charge.

Or if you don't like posts, perhaps you could just not complain to the rest of us?

 

[goofy166]

I would also like to see more charging in that area too. Curious. When you say the distance is long from SF to next most SC, are you talking about Ukiah or Corning? Corning, according to my X is about 170 miles and easy for me to make with the X

I mean between SF and Petaluma is about an hour in time. So everyone in Marin (Sausalito, Mill Valley, Corte Madera, San Rafael, Terra Linda, etc) has no SuperCharger network unless they are willing to face horrible traffic on 101 for an hour to get to Petaluma.

 

[goofy166]

I apologize for my stupid question here, but where is the Tesla store in Corte Madera charging their cars now ? I was hoping to use the Corte Madera location to charge on the way to the Presidio.

Google Maps

 

[MorrisonHiker]

I wish Elon would allow other EV manufacturers to build SCs using his technology. I don';t see how Porsche and it's Taycan is ever going to catch up.

Tesla opened up their Supercharger patents years ago. Other manufacturers didn't want to support the Tesla charging standard. If other manufacturers want to use the Tesla Supercharger network, they would be required to contribute to building it out.

 

[Interferon]

If you haven't gathered from the other responses to the poster you were responding to (and/or responses to those responses), this system takes two separate 110 circuits on separate phases and connects them together the same way a 220 outlet would. It isn't a conversion with losses, and it does increase charge speed because you cannot plug your vehicle into two separate circuits at the same time otherwise.Yeah, they do have restrictions, at the very least, there are multiple wholesale clubs with discount gas pumps that are members only, and you have to pay to be a member. Arguably, "free supercharging" (whether lifetime or limited per annum) is a discount only available to a select group of people, and the ability to use it could have been reasonably restricted by geolocation for all new members going forward at any point in time. Paid supercharging, on the other hand, could still happen anywhere, just like paid charging at third party chargers and normal retail gas stations.

I didn't know that was what they were doing with their converter. You are right of course that two opposite phase circuits can accomplish the same thing.

One thing to consider is that all the plugs in a typical garage are probably on the same circuit. So you will need some long extension cords strung to somewhere else in the house to find a circuit with opposite phase.


If you want to go cheap, you can accomplish the same thing by getting two extension cords and chopping the female end off each. Hook the hot (black) wire of each extension cord to one leg of your home charger input. Put wire nuts on the unused neutral (white) leads. Hook both grounds (green) to the ground lug on the home charger. Now go searching for two opposite phase plugs around the house.

 

[Canuck]

If other manufacturers want to use the Tesla Supercharger network, they would be required to contribute to building it out.

I'm not sure about contributions to building out the network, unless you mean indirectly, like based on pay-per-use. I can see Tesla agreeing to that for revenue from charging stations, and to further the effort to transition to EVs. If Porsche made an EV that could use Tesla's supercharger network, you've got me in the door and going for a test drive, and I'm sure a lot of others too. However, without a comparable fast charging network, you can't get me in the door of a Porsche/BMW/Mercedes or "you name it" dealership and that's a shame because competition is good for everyone, including Tesla.