Tesla announced it will offer FSD to competitors

[ewoodrick]

It's not possible. The levels do have meanings. Tesla cannot drive anywhere with no driver present. Much less "drive anywhere in any condition".

Currently the disengagement rate is pretty bad from the community sourced information. There's a long way to go before it can be level 3, much less level 4. There are many in the industry that do not believe level 5 is actually possible.

Just reviewing the levels chart.

I guess if the NHTSA or NTSB ever finds an instance where FSD is found guilty, that automatically puts the car in Level 3 (Human and CAR is responsible)

And like I inferred, FSD is performing somewhere between Level 4 and Level 5, from the Automation and Conditions lines, All it takes is changing the responsibility to make it a Level 4.

Traffic Aware Cruise Control with lane following is all that's required for Level 2. The chart makes it seem that it's a small jump between Level 2 and Level 3. Tesla was well beyond the Automation and Condition requirements 4 years ago.

So it comes down to disengagement and safety. Why do you think that Tesla reports that information? Keep the safety as good as a driver and the disengagements down and that starts the path to removing the steering wheel.

 

[uscbucsfan]

Just reviewing the levels chart.
View attachment 957871

I guess if the NHTSA or NTSB ever finds an instance where FSD is found guilty, that automatically puts the car in Level 3 (Human and CAR is responsible)

And like I inferred, FSD is performing somewhere between Level 4 and Level 5, from the Automation and Conditions lines, All it takes is changing the responsibility to make it a Level 4.

Traffic Aware Cruise Control with lane following is all that's required for Level 2. The chart makes it seem that it's a small jump between Level 2 and Level 3. Tesla was well beyond the Automation and Condition requirements 4 years ago.

So it comes down to disengagement and safety. Why do you think that Tesla reports that information? Keep the safety as good as a driver and the disengagements down and that starts the path to removing the steering wheel.

It's not between level 4 and 5. It's insane that you say that. The car needs constant supervision, that's the differentiator.

Tesla isn't close to level 4. Years away. I don't know that they will ever get to level 5.

The Tesla safety reports are FSD plus a super attentive driver, it's not lauding FSD itself.

If you think robotaxis will be a thing on existing fleet, I'll sell you some land on the moon.

I'm a huge fan of FSD, but it has a long way to go. It's sounds ridiculous when you say it operates between Level 4 and 5.

 

[ewoodrick]

As someone who uses FSD most of the time, I know how much it can do and what it can't do.

I know that it can drive practically anywhere at any time. Except for a few quirks (and probably even with the quirks) I believe that if you let the car go and don't disengage it, it will perform at a Level 4 from a technical and conditions perspective.

People disengage FSD when they don't trust it. That doesn't mean that FSD won't do it.

 

[kpanda17]

Can’t wait for less nag, Elon mode

 

[ewoodrick]

Can’t wait for less nag, Elon mode

The infamous "Elon mode" is much better worded as "liability"

If something happens, who is responsible is that it comes down to.

The existing autonomous taxis probably are either self-insured or have a relatively large policy for liability. With a limited number of vehicles and limited areas, the liability is quantifiable and realizable.

"Elon mode" just means that Elon's is going to take the liability.

It's a completely different story when you enable a few hundred thousand cars.

Nag is only as bad as it is today because the Social Media sources keep nagging about it. It wasn't too bad when it was just the torque, but adding the camera is something that Tesla had to do because too many people keep trying to blame everything on Tesla and Social Media amplifies and distorts it.

I am expecting things starting to relax as we get closer.

 

[kpanda17]

As an engineer with optimism, looking forward to eye tracking instead of steering nag.

 

[ewoodrick]

As an engineer with optimism, looking forward to eye tracking instead of steering nag.

As an engineer, the torque nag is much more acceptable than the eye tracking. It only takes a few seconds looking at the screen to get that message.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

As an engineer, the torque nag is much more acceptable than the eye tracking. It only takes a few seconds looking at the screen to get that message.

You can never go hands free with a torque sensor.

Now sure one can argue that you never want to go hands free, and instead have your hands lightly resting on the wheel. But. this doesn't give the torque sensor enough torque to sense.

 

[ewoodrick]

You can never go hands free with a torque sensor.

Now sure one can argue that you never want to go hands free, and instead have your hands lightly resting on the wheel. But. this doesn't give the torque sensor enough torque to sense.

I don't remember ever saying "going hands-free" Just that I hate the current eye-tracking more than the torque sensor.

And yes, after 5 years, my arms and hands know how much torque to put on the wheel.

I want them to get rid of it all, but I know that will take time. It's the extremely short looking a the screen nag that I hate. I can look out the left window for a long time. Look at the map for a few seconds and off the alarm goes. Unlike the torque nag, you don't get a pop-up or flashing screen that you can respond to, just the message that you aren't looking, which you get maybe 4-5 before you get a strike.
I can see the blue flash a thousand different times on a long trip. The "Pay attention" gets only about 4-5.

 

[Bladerskb]

(By the way, remember how last year's news of Tesla's offer to make NACS a standard was widely derided and scoffed at around here- what a difference we see now.)

I mean automakers should have been using Tesla Superchargers in the first place and weren't doing so due to branding.

It could well be Ford, but again we don't know what "early discussions" really means. There's no reason for Jim Farley or Mary Barra to slam the door on Tesla when they themselves don't have any clear path.

Huh? GM has driverless Cruise and their FSD competitor UltraCruise which they say they will launch this year.
Why would they try to get Tesla FSD? To me, this would be a door that's literally air-tight.

GM’s Ultra Cruise will use radar, camera, and lidar to enable hands-free driving

GM jumps on the lidar bandwagon.

www.theverge.com

Now about Ford, Its less air-tight but even though they broke up Argo AI. They hired hundreds of engineers (550 total) to create an in-house system.

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2023/03/02/ford-establishes-latitude-ai-to-develop-future-automated-driving.html#:~:text=Latitude%20AI%20%E2%80%93%20a%20Ford%20subsidiary%20%E2%80%93%20is,robotics%2C%20software%2C%20sensors%2C%20systems%20engineering%20and%20test%20operations

 

[gtae07]

It's the extremely short looking a the screen nag that I hate. I can look out the left window for a long time. Look at the map for a few seconds and off the alarm goes. Unlike the torque nag, you don't get a pop-up or flashing screen that you can respond to,

I only have basic AP but yeah the wheel nag pops up quick if you're looking at the screen. That said, with wraparound sunglasses I can keep my head still and it doesn't seem to notice

The wheel nag wouldn't be as annoying if there were finger rests or spokes around the 4:30-5:00 and 7:00-7:30 position, where my hands "want" to sit, or if it relied on something other than wheel torque to sense hands on the wheel.

 

[ewoodrick]

I mean automakers should have been using Tesla Superchargers in the first place and weren't doing so due to branding.

Huh? GM has driverless Cruise and their FSD competitor UltraCruise which they say they will launch this year.
Why would they try to get Tesla FSD? To me, this would be a door that's literally air-tight.

GM’s Ultra Cruise will use radar, camera, and lidar to enable hands-free driving

GM jumps on the lidar bandwagon.

www.theverge.com

Now about Ford, Its less air-tight but even though they broke up Argo AI. They hired hundreds of engineers (550 total) to create an in-house system.

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2023/03/02/ford-establishes-latitude-ai-to-develop-future-automated-driving.html#:~:text=Latitude%20AI%20%E2%80%93%20a%20Ford%20subsidiary%20%E2%80%93%20is,robotics%2C%20software%2C%20sensors%2C%20systems%20engineering%20and%20test%20operations

How many cities, no wait, how many square miles does Cruise cover? It's not shown to be a scalable solution.

 

[FloridaJohn]

How many cities, no wait, how many square miles does Cruise cover? It's not shown to be a scalable solution.

Well, to be fair, neither has Tesla’s solution.

 

[Bladerskb]

How many cities, no wait, how many square miles does Cruise cover? It's not shown to be a scalable solution.

Cruise is driverless in 3 cities, each city is around 40-50 sq mile.
Tesla is driverless in 0 cities, 0 square miles.

Tesla's FSD is door to door street L2 ADAS that works in the entire US and Canada but is already available.
GM's UltraCruise is a door to door street L2 ADAS that works in the entire US and Canada but is said to be released this year.

 

[Bladerskb]

"could happen like the charging deals - one, then a rush of them."

Some Tesla fans truly are stupid.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1682106890170376192

 

[spacecoin]

As for Waymo.
They are two different systems. Tesla’s self-driving is supposed to work everywhere, instantly in real time, without use of lidar, etc. Waymo’s is geofenced to particular cities. Meaning Waymo would basically have to map out the world in order for it to work properly.

I'm sorry, but this has to be said: This is the typical clueless Tesla-stan argument. Read up. Tesla is selling a dream, not something that will actually work on existing cars, ever.

Level 5 is an aspirational level. All autonomous systems will have ODD boundaries.

 

[spacecoin]

"could happen like the charging deals - one, then a rush of them."

Some Tesla fans truly are stupid.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1682106890170376192

He's not being stupid. He's pumping. The people that actually believe what he says are stupid.

 

[spacecoin]

I mean, why would anyone buy FSD at it's current state/value proposition?
It's not the best driver assistance system. It's not going to be autonomous.

You can't even drive cooperatively with Autopilot. Disengage to change lanes is so 2010.

 

[ewoodrick]

Well, to be fair, neither has Tesla’s solution.

I mean, why would anyone buy FSD at it's current state/value proposition?
It's not the best driver assistance system. It's not going to be autonomous.

You can't even drive cooperatively with Autopilot. Disengage to change lanes is so 2010.

Because it is CURRENTLY truly AWESOME!

My wife uses it effectively ALL THE TIME.

It significantly offloads the driving experience.

You may not think so, but that's your problem.

 

[rlsd]

Is Elon not afraid of being sued by investors when he says about something that does not exist? Like "funding secure" suit?