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Tesla cripple model S stranding family

Has Tesla gone too far?


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bkp_duke

Well-Known Member
May 15, 2016
5,033
16,027
San Diego, CA
They know very well how rebuilt Teslas risk of injury or damage are different? My guess is there haven't been hundreds of crashes or incidents with rebuilt Teslas or other EVs so there is not enough data to say either way.

Rebuilt cars in general. If they pass a road worthiness inspection, statistically, there is very little difference in safety.

Lots of people here have this assumption that Teslas are these super-difficult magical cars that are extremely hard to work on. That could not be further from the truth. Because of the simplicity of the design, they are FAR easier to work on (no exhaust, no transmission, etc.). People that rebuild these know what they are doing, and do things like inspect the battery pack, etc. before going for the rebuild. The great thing about the modularity of the design is that if the pack is damaged, you can get all of your pack cost back in most circumstances by cracking open the pack and selling the individual modules (again, TESTED - which is not hard to do).
 

bkp_duke

Well-Known Member
May 15, 2016
5,033
16,027
San Diego, CA
Obviously, there are companies which simply refuse to insure salvage vehicles.

However, even if someone gets insurance that doesn't mean much. It might be only liability only insurance and no collision. Or even if they do get collision insurance, and even get a decent premium, if they ever have to file a claim, they might find out that the claim payment is absurdly low.

Please point out an insurance company that doesn't cover rebuilt cars. There are VERY FEW that do not. All the majors (GEICO, Progressive, AAA, State Farm, etc.) will provide FULL coverage (not liability only).

EDIT - my insurance agent, when discussing my cars, asked me specifically to help him find a rebuilt Tesla. His words - "rebuilt cars are the best kept secret in the industry, if you know what you are doing."
 

GatorGuy

Member
Feb 25, 2018
529
511
Jacksonville
Rebuilt cars in general. If they pass a road worthiness inspection, statistically, there is very little difference in safety.

Lots of people here have this assumption that Teslas are these super-difficult magical cars that are extremely hard to work one. That could not be further from the truth. Because of the simplicity of the design, they are FAR easier to work on (no exhaust, no transmission, etc.). People that rebuild these know what they are doing, and do things like inspect the battery pack, etc. before going for the rebuild. The great thing about the modularity of the design is that if the pack is damaged, you can get all of your pack cost back in most circumstances by cracking open the pack and selling the individual modules (again, TESTED - which is not hard to do).

Some people who work on salvage Teslas might be knowledgeable. That certainly doesn't mean all. That doesn't even mean most.

I think we've all seen some posts of people working on Teslas that have no clue of how to fix certain errors or even what they mean.

Personally, I wish that Tesla would make repair manuals and that their parts were more available. They should get rid of this restricted parts system they have. But I'm fine with them requiring inspection by them and not allowing access to the Supercharger network otherwise.
 

Ludalicious

Active Member
Feb 22, 2018
1,105
1,193
Vancouver
Tesla absolutely did the right thing. These vehicles should not be rebuilt in Joe Blows shop next door. Especially when it comes to supercharging the car. I for one do not want my family charging next to a vehicle rebuilt by just anyone. Especially when we are talking about 145 Kw's of power. I for one know my local Utility wouldn't exactly let anyone hook up to their network. Give your fan boy heads a shake....
 

bkp_duke

Well-Known Member
May 15, 2016
5,033
16,027
San Diego, CA
Some people who work on salvage Teslas might be knowledgeable. That certainly doesn't mean all. That doesn't even mean most.

I think we've all seen some posts of people working on Teslas that have no clue of how to fix certain errors or even what they mean.

Personally, I wish that Tesla would make repair manuals and that their parts were more available. They should get rid of this restricted parts system they have. But I'm fine with them requiring inspection by them and not allowing access to the Supercharger network otherwise.

Actually, what happens is the people that are NOT knowledgeable wind up not being able to deal with the computer aspects of the car, i.e. getting the system to clear codes, disconnect from the mothership, etc. - those people wind up abandoning the projects long before they get the car in a driveable state. Then the cars get sold for parts, or to someone like Yaro, etc. who really know what they are doing and complete the rebuild.

If you cannot do BOTH the computer work, and the mechanical work, the car will not drive, simple as that.

But I do agree with you that Tesla should be making parts and manuals FAR more available. Their draconian approach (especially when they have "given away the intellectual property") is ridiculous.
 

Ofarlig

Member
Mar 4, 2018
263
231
Sweden
Rebuilt cars in general. If they pass a road worthiness inspection, statistically, there is very little difference in safety.

Lots of people here have this assumption that Teslas are these super-difficult magical cars that are extremely hard to work on. That could not be further from the truth. Because of the simplicity of the design, they are FAR easier to work on (no exhaust, no transmission, etc.). People that rebuild these know what they are doing, and do things like inspect the battery pack, etc. before going for the rebuild. The great thing about the modularity of the design is that if the pack is damaged, you can get all of your pack cost back in most circumstances by cracking open the pack and selling the individual modules (again, TESTED - which is not hard to do).

Well these aren't rebuilt cars in general, you don't set premiums for specific models based on cars in general unless you absolutely need to and if you do it is only temporary until you have enough data. I have done that countless times already when I set my reserving models which then leads to the premium models. I am not saying a rebuilt Tesla has to be worse than a new I am just saying that the insurance companies most likely do not know yet for Teslas.

As I said before, over here we don't even allow a totaled car to ever become road legal so we don't have any problem either way.
 
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Ludalicious

Active Member
Feb 22, 2018
1,105
1,193
Vancouver
The fact that "lifetime supercharging" was built into the price. In the USA, it is ILLEGAL for an auto manufacturer to remove any feature that was sold with a car when it left the factory. That is just the law here.

Tesla can try to "justify" all they want, but what they are doing is not legal. Furthermore, they have setup a system to get a car "re-certified" that is overly complex and unjustifiably expensive which is not followed by any other car company in the world (and sorry, their cars are not THAT unique to justify that).

Agreed. Electrical vehicles should not be certified by ICE mechanics. I foresee Electrical engineers inspecting electric vehicles in the future. We all would be allot safer then, especially at supercharger stations with family's in these vehicles...
 

edlin303

Member
Jan 29, 2018
103
110
San Diego
This shows a complete lack of knowledge of the law regarding automobiles. It's not legal for a manufacturer to remove a "feature" of a car after it has been sold, even if it has been totaled and resold at auction, and even if that feature is "software". It opens Tesla up to a WORLD of hurt legally, and it is a ticking time bomb.

They can refuse warranty work, and refuse even to provide new software updates. But turning off Supercharging, or worse, DC fast charging in general, is setting them up for a nasty class-action.

DC fast charging I absolutely agree on since it is a capability of the car that does not depend on Tesla providing any service to you. But Supercharging and LTE I assume the terms make clear that it is a service they provide to owners at their discretion. You call it a feature, but it's actually a service they pay for and provide to owners for free. Supercharging especially there is precedent for since not all new owners get it free. Free towing and free maintenance are other examples of services that I am sure they can revoke under specific conditions.
 
  • Disagree
Reactions: ElectricIAC

bkp_duke

Well-Known Member
May 15, 2016
5,033
16,027
San Diego, CA
DC fast charging I absolutely agree on since it is a capability of the car that does not depend on Tesla providing any service to you. But Supercharging and LTE I assume the terms make clear that it is a service they provide to owners at their discretion. You call it a feature, but it's actually a service they pay for and provide to owners for free. Supercharging especially there is precedent for since not all new owners get it free. Free towing and free maintenance are other examples of services that I am sure they can revoke under specific conditions.

Actually, that's not how Tesla phrased the terms when they sold these "features". LTE - 4 years (no qualifications), and to their credit they do NOT turn this off under most cases. Supercharging - lifetime, with no qualifications on the earlier cars.

Again, the law is clear, and precedent has been set previously. This is just something Tesla is doing that is not legal.
 

hacer

Active Member
Apr 13, 2016
1,060
4,371
Clarksville, MD
...
EDIT - do you KNOW what it takes to crack the case of the battery? There is NO POSSIBLE WAY to crack the battery case without huge frame damage around the battery itself. Again, comments from people who have never actually done any of this.
Car goes airborne, lands the center of the car on the corner of a concrete barrier etc. Minimal frame damage with full piercing of battery pack. Not impossible at all. You could do damage to the battery pack with improperly lifting the car by the battery during your repair process, also without frame damage.
 

hacer

Active Member
Apr 13, 2016
1,060
4,371
Clarksville, MD
And in that situation the car would NOT start. Plain and simple. The BMS would note a massive coolant problem, damaged (zero volt) cells, etc. and not engage high voltage.

More armchair quarterbacking by people with no actual experience.
I didn't claim at all that the car would run, operate or fail to throw codes in those cases. I was simply pointing out the ridiculous false statement that you made that it was impossible to damage the battery without damaging the frame.

Getting back to the question of inspections, electrical connections that carry high currents require that they maintain low resistance at all interconnects. Slight contamination (a bit of oil for example) or improper torque or forces on connections can lead to high resistance. Out of an abundance of caution, Tesla measures the voltage drop across many (but not all!) of the high-voltage connections to shut the system down if there is too much heating.

Bad electrical connections are a major cause of house fires which is why in most all jurisdictions across the world, electrical work is required to by done with a permit, by a licensed electrician, followed by an independent inspection. Also that all electrical work be done following arcane rules that go well beyond the minimum needed for safety. Despite this, there are still large numbers (51,000/year in the USA) of electrical fires in homes every year often because some do-it-yourself project was done by someone who didn't know what they don't know.

That you think every single high-current connection in a Tesla is software protected for fault conditions proves that you don't know what you don't know.
 
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