Tesla may build Gigafactory at home in California after all - Phoenix Business Journal
I like what Simon had to say.
I like what Simon had to say.
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Tesla Gigafactory Investor Thread
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I think Texas should win, because it is the best state to do business in; or very close to the best. If none of the states gave any incentives to Tesla then Texas would win without a doubt and California would lose to 49 other states. There was an article today that ranked California as the worst state to do business in.
That said, even though I am from Texas, I really don't care if Texas wins or not; its not like we need the jobs here as much as the other states do. I just hope that Tesla does the right thing and makes the best decision for all stakeholders.
Also, since states are fighting over Tesla by trying to outdo one another with incentives, I think that China might threaten to slap anti-subsidy tariffs on all Tesla vehicles and battery packs for energy storage to show the US how hypocritical it is when it puts tariffs on Chinese products. Even the WTO sides with China.
Just some food for thought. Don't be surprised to see China looking to put tariffs on Tesla vehicles if these state incentives are indeed huge, and it sounds like they will be...
That said, even though I am from Texas, I really don't care if Texas wins or not; its not like we need the jobs here as much as the other states do. I just hope that Tesla does the right thing and makes the best decision for all stakeholders.
Also, since states are fighting over Tesla by trying to outdo one another with incentives, I think that China might threaten to slap anti-subsidy tariffs on all Tesla vehicles and battery packs for energy storage to show the US how hypocritical it is when it puts tariffs on Chinese products. Even the WTO sides with China.
Just some food for thought. Don't be surprised to see China looking to put tariffs on Tesla vehicles if these state incentives are indeed huge, and it sounds like they will be...
Sorry, but I fail to see why Tesla would want to benefit a state that has been a thorn in their side since the beginning. Not to mention higher shipping costs and longer delays because of the distance.
People think that California has a stifling regulatory environment but they fail to realize that there is a reason Tesla was founded right here in the Golden State. CA promotes EVs while Texas does not, in large part because of regulation.
People think that California has a stifling regulatory environment but they fail to realize that there is a reason Tesla was founded right here in the Golden State. CA promotes EVs while Texas does not, in large part because of regulation.
Serious question: Does the promotion of EVs cover a battery factory or the facility that only makes the vehicles? I see potential problems with environmental groups in Cali that I do not think you would see in Texas or Nevada. I have always felt Cali will eventually get a battery factory. They may even be in the group of 2-3 states that simultaneously break ground. I just believe they will not have the first functioning factory.
Tesla is not making a decision to "benefit a state". They are making a decision to benefit themselves.
Texas is an extremely business friendly state, whereas California for example is not (and that is why it wasn't mentioned as a candidate initially).
If Texas wins it is because it is good business for Tesla and not because Elon wants Texas to benefit. Fortunately for us Elon is not short-sighted like some of the anti-Texas arguments that keep popping up.
Texas has very strong dealership laws in place and if you understand politics, then it isn't that easy to change these laws because lobbies fight hard. Elon is not going to hold a grudge over Texas for this reason. He is all about business and will do what is best for Tesla.
Texas is an extremely business friendly state, whereas California for example is not (and that is why it wasn't mentioned as a candidate initially).
If Texas wins it is because it is good business for Tesla and not because Elon wants Texas to benefit. Fortunately for us Elon is not short-sighted like some of the anti-Texas arguments that keep popping up.
Texas has very strong dealership laws in place and if you understand politics, then it isn't that easy to change these laws because lobbies fight hard. Elon is not going to hold a grudge over Texas for this reason. He is all about business and will do what is best for Tesla.
Thanks for implying my argument is short-sighted, which I can assure, it is not. I see no further point debating this with you.
I am not a 'Sleepy apologist' but there have been several comments that Tesla (Elon) should punish Texas for their caving to dealership pressure/anti direct sales position. The wording of his comment does not appear to be directed at a single individual. I do believe IF Tesla is faced with two equal 'deals' that it would make sense to award the GFactory to the state that is/has been more tesla friendly. However, most of us here are stockholders as well as vehicle owners. From that perspective I want tesla to take the best deal so we can get the least expensive batteries. From a business sense it is best to have a short memory and not hold grudges.
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Exactly this. I was making a general observation.
There have been people suggesting the Elon should make Texas believe that they are in the running just to screw with them and then pull the plug last minute on Texas.
Unless you do business selling cars without a dealership, then it sucks.
San Antonio option for the GF would be good. Elon could sell car shells (no battery) in Texas (no dealership needed); then add the GF battery with fast swap post sale, sold by the GF consortium - done
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Yeah that's just dumb. Not thinking he's going there sleepy. He's got a lot invested in the SpaceX port there etc. Just not in his character it seems to me. He'll do the best thing for the company
California's Business Environment
Many criticize the business environment in California. Let's consider California's business history. In the interest of brevity we'll keep the list short.
Disney
Apple
Intel
McDonalds
Qualcomm
Hollywood (the entire movie industry)
Tesla
I tried to limit the list to firms that have absolutely "changed the world".
Many criticize the business environment in California. Let's consider California's business history. In the interest of brevity we'll keep the list short.
Disney
Apple
Intel
McDonalds
Qualcomm
Hollywood (the entire movie industry)
Tesla
I tried to limit the list to firms that have absolutely "changed the world".
bollar
Disgruntled Member
I think Musk is more strategic than that. Texas is already one of Tesla's largest markets, despite limited investment on Tesla's part and I t has the possibility to be much larger. I expect the state's offer will eventually offer a concession on dealerships, similar to what we've seen in New Jersey and Pennsylvania. But I don't think Texas will play that card until we're getting close to the end of the selection process.
A special message for the guy who would break California into 6 states - LA Times
On his website, Six Californias, Draper writes, “California needs a reboot. Our public schools have gone from the top in the nation to 47th. We are ranked 50th out of 50 for the worst business climate in the United States …. Our state needs a massive investment in infrastructure and a streamlined process to help grow and keep business. Our state needs our help.”
I cannot disagree...
Even the LA Times writer can't disagree with that...
ev-enthusiast
Active Member
BMW joins Tesla Motors in race for high grade automotive battery cell supply.
As BMW is currently a bit surprised about initial sales of their i3 beeing bigger than expected (i3 vehicles sold in H1 2014: 5400, i8 deliveries started in June), they signed a multi-billion dollar contract with their existing supplier Samsung SDI on Tuesday in Seoul.
Battery supply by Samsung SDI to be expanded about 25% for 2016 compared to prior plannings.
Samsung batteries to be used in all-electric vehicles as well as in hybrids.
BMW takes different approach compared to Tesla and partners with supplier Samsung SDI and does not build a facility on their own, but that was to be expected from BMW.
For a car currently build at BMW there is only about 20-25% of the work done at a BMW plant, most of the work is done by the suppliers.
Bottom line:
BMW is planning for a big battery cell demand in the next two years, thus Tesla's expensive Gigafactory plans no longer appear to be extraordinary.
Links (sorry, in German):
Neue Batterietechnik: BMW schließt Milliardendeal mit Samsung - Industrie - Unternehmen - Handelsblatt
BMW setzt bei Batteriezellen für E- und Hybridautos weiter auf Samsung
Link (google translate):
Google Übersetzer
Google Übersetzer
As BMW is currently a bit surprised about initial sales of their i3 beeing bigger than expected (i3 vehicles sold in H1 2014: 5400, i8 deliveries started in June), they signed a multi-billion dollar contract with their existing supplier Samsung SDI on Tuesday in Seoul.
Battery supply by Samsung SDI to be expanded about 25% for 2016 compared to prior plannings.
Samsung batteries to be used in all-electric vehicles as well as in hybrids.
BMW takes different approach compared to Tesla and partners with supplier Samsung SDI and does not build a facility on their own, but that was to be expected from BMW.
For a car currently build at BMW there is only about 20-25% of the work done at a BMW plant, most of the work is done by the suppliers.
Bottom line:
BMW is planning for a big battery cell demand in the next two years, thus Tesla's expensive Gigafactory plans no longer appear to be extraordinary.
Links (sorry, in German):
Neue Batterietechnik: BMW schließt Milliardendeal mit Samsung - Industrie - Unternehmen - Handelsblatt
BMW setzt bei Batteriezellen für E- und Hybridautos weiter auf Samsung
Link (google translate):
Google Übersetzer
Google Übersetzer
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Assuming BMW builds 15,000 i3's and i8's in 2014, that's 360,000 kWh or 0.36 GWh. Let's add in another 40,000 kWh for plug in hybrids (way too high, but a nice round number) to 0.40 GWh. Let's assume BMW wants to increase buying Samsung SDI's batteries by 25% each year. So by the end of 2017, that's 0.78 GWh. Even at that point, it's not at even a 1 GWh capacity level.
In contrast, Nissan's battery plant in Smyrna, TN has a nameplate capacity of about 1.4 GWh, even though it isn't clear when it will hit that level. So to match Nissan's existing TN plant, BMW would have to increase battery purchases by about 50% each year. That's not even Nissan's only battery plant.
Tesla's current purchase level from Panasonic, before the increase coming this year, is roughly 2.8 GWh, or 7 X BMW's current purchase level from Samsung SDI. Tesla wants to hit 35 GWh in cell production in their first Gigafactory in 2020, or 88 X the current BMW purchase level, and 45+ X the announced expansion level. Even if by 2017, Tesla's Gigafactory #1 pumps out 1/3 nameplate capacity, it would be 15X BMW's announced expansion.
Bottom line: BMW's announced battery purchase plans are far from extraordinary and are not in the same league as Tesla's Gigafactory plans.
An impressive list, Jack, however McDonald's as an earth shaker really needs to be credited to Illinois.
In 1955 Ray Kroc of Illinois bought the name and fast service system from the McDonald brothers who had opened a restaurant in California in 1940. The first McDonald's restaurant under Kroc's corporation was in Des Plaines, Illinois and is now a museum. He then began franchising like crazy, which was what really brought about the fast food revolution. The corporate headquarters is in Oak Brook, Illinois.
ev-enthusiast
Active Member
Techmaven, thanks for your math.
It is difficult for me to estimate the future sales numbers of the BMW i brand vehicles for the next years. I do not know BMW ramp up plans. I have only the numbers of H1 2014.
What I know is that they can scale up easily in their plant in Leipzig and that a family sedan called i5 is already in the works.
So far I agree on your math for this year:
BMW: 0.40 GWh
Tesla: 2.8 GWh
Sure, factor 7 is a big difference, but I expected the difference to be even bigger. It is less than factor 10, same magnitude.
To my opinion the multi-billion dollar deal between BMW and Samsung SDI shows BMW's growing confidence in the electric vehicle market and corresponding battery cell demand.
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A new development:
Can the world Quartz
It seems that NMC will not get the promise of improvement they thought it will. This is a pretty big blow to GM(with LG chem) and BMW(with Samsung)
Can the world Quartz
It seems that NMC will not get the promise of improvement they thought it will. This is a pretty big blow to GM(with LG chem) and BMW(with Samsung)
dhanson865
Well-Known Member
McDonalds?
Anything you want to attribute to McDonals as it is today has nothing to do with the guys in California it was the dude in Illinois that pushed McD all around...
The seminal "Golden Arches" were first built in San Bernardino, California.
I will always consider Ray Kroc a favorite son of San Diego. A Padres thing.
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