Tesla - Ongoing Privacy Issues / Security

[TDUK101]

Hello all,

Those who read my posting a few months back elsewhere might be fed up of this topic...and to be honest I'm fed up of chasing Tesla - perhaps they are hoping they'll wear me down, but the sales person (UK) still insists that no-one has any idea who at Tesla is responsible for this stuff or how to escalate it.

It relates to a list of questions I asked about 18 months ago when I was on the waiting list; as time went on, the list grew, but I've now distilled it back to the 10 most important questions and I simply cannot get any official answers from Tesla.

Seeing as Musk's office knows how to fully exploit the tweet of a cute 10 year old or those that coincide with an information release, one can assume they triage all tweets and choose to ignore the majority.

Anyway, if you care, here is the list:
www.london404.blogspot.com

And if you don't care, that's fine - I don't need any more fanbois telling me not to be paranoid or taking offence that I'd just assume Tesla are somehow perfect and beyond question

Michael.

 

[BluestarE3]

Why is the poll binary? Why not options such as "mostly comfortable", "somewhat comfortable", "somewhat uncomfortable", "mostly uncomfortable", etc.? Are you 100% comfortable with the pervasive CCTV presence in the UK and what law enforcement agencies are doing with that data?

 

[TDUK101]

Fair point... nothing is 100%... Not sure how I edit the post...

 

[Swift]

Fair point... nothing is 100%... Not sure how I edit the post...

Maybe try clicking more, then edit. Not sure if that works on the poll.

 

[TDUK101]

Can't see 'more'

 

[TexasEV]

Dismissing people who don't share the degree of your concerns as "fanbois" serves to shut down discussion, not promote it.

 

[TDUK101]

Dismissing people who don't share the degree of your concerns as "fanbois"

That's not what I said, or meant. It's the dismissing of my concerns on the basis of blind loyalty that is unconstructive.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

That's not what I said, or meant. It's the dismissing of my concerns on the basis of blind loyalty that is unconstructive.

Luckily that happens much less on TMC these days, the community has grown and matured marvellously IMO.

I guess Tesla having made more than a few missteps has helped balance out viewpoints as well. A silver lining.

 

[Canuck]

Fair point... nothing is 100%.

It seems to me that you are 100% not satisfied with Tesla"s privacy policy which is why you worded the poll the way you did, and then took a shot at people who disagree with you. Sounds like a fair way to do a poll to me..

 

[BluestarE3]

That's not what I said, or meant. It's the dismissing of my concerns on the basis of blind loyalty that is unconstructive.

Well, maybe you didn't mean it that way, but your exact words were:

And if you don't care, that's fine - I don't need any more fanbois telling me not to be paranoid or taking offence that I'd just assume Tesla are somehow perfect and beyond question

That comes across as assuming everyone who doesn't care/worry about this is automatically a "fanboi". People compromise some of their privacy all the time with search engines, smartphones, social media, and devices such as Alexa. Maybe they feel the benefits of using them outweigh the risks or maybe they're oblivious to fact they are being tracked. Either way, just because they "don't care" enough to stop using them doesn't make them "fanbois".

Maybe "I don't care" (with no qualifiers) could be one of the poll options?

 

[BluestarE3]

Fair point... nothing is 100%... Not sure how I edit the post...

Since you're a new member with few posts, you have limited capabilities on these forums. Even for veteran members, the time window to edit may have lapsed already. Do you see a REPORT option at the bottom of your opening post? If so, click it and ask the moderators if they could make your desired changes to your poll and/or post.

 

[Nosken]

For me, and it is only my opinion, the fun I get driving the Tesla, far outweighs any privacy/security concerns I would have.
Yes, being secure and private would be wonderful, but, today, that seems less achievable. Also, by enumerating your concerns, aren't they accentuating the vulnerabilities for possible exploit?

It's all balancing of the risk versus the reward.
I have some friends that are afraid of flying, and I reminded them, the driving to the airport is exponentially more risky than flying on a plane.
Kind of like in Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid, when they're getting ready to jump off the cliff, one of them is reminded that they can't swim, and then he is told, "Are you crazy?-the fall alone will probably kill you"

 

[Tam]

...paranoid...

The best way not to be tracked is get a technology that is not trackable.

If you get one that is capable of tracking you, it doesn't matter what a company promise/commitment/contract is, wikileaks or someone else can get your info some day, some how.

 

[Jason S]

I think Tam has the right of this.

Does Michael use a debit or credit card? Facebook? Google? Mobile phone? Ever look at the privacy policies on those? TMC prolly makes no promises on privacy either.
I think I'm mostly on the "no worries" side of this -- haven't looked into their privacy policy and figure I have more important things to worry about.

 

[davidc18]

5. Does your telematics record my speed in real time? For example, are you able to tell that a driver was driving over the speed limit at a particular time and location and report that information onto me (the owner) or 3rd parties (law enforcement, insurance companies etc.). Under what circumstances would you reveal such information to those 3rd parties and for how long is that information kept?

Sales person responded : " As per the OM, Tesla does not disclose the data recorded in your vehicle to any third party except when: • An agreement or consent from the vehicle’s owner (or the leasing company for a leased vehicle) is obtained. • Officially requested by the police or other authorities. • Used as a defense for Tesla in a lawsuit. • Ordered by a court of law. • Used for research purposes without disclosing details of the vehicle owner or identification information. • Disclosed to a Tesla affiliated company, including their successors or assigns, or our information systems and data management providers. ". Not much of an answer there and not that they open with "does not disclose" but then includes in their exceptions any company affiliated to Tesla - affiliated is a very broad definition. No answer given on real-time reporting or how long data is kept for etc.

6. In media reports of accidents, I have noted that Tesla sometimes issue statements about the circumstances to defend the company. What is the exact policy on this – for example, would you publically reveal any information about an incident involving my car without specific permission from me?
Sales person referred to the answer to No.6, but I'm not sure that there was any law suit actually filed at the stages when various claims were refuted by their telematics data.

they have proven (numerous times) that they can and will disclose information without your consent. They also clearly consider all the data they collect from your vehicle as belonging to TESLA.

You can also refuse to update the software (which I have done). I think the real answers are in the owners manual where they spell out what happens when you "opt out" of connecting to TESLA. Just remember that TESLA will continue to operate to promote and protect the interests of TESLA and only TESLA. (IMO).

 

[TDUK101]

the fun I get driving the Tesla, far outweighs any privacy/security concerns

Accepted, and add to that the 'service' you get, say, in the case of Google. You give up all sorts of privacy and data in return for Google's free service - it's a trade you can consider worthy, and plenty has been written about 'the death of privacy' and why bother fighting it.

But there are limits, and there should be limits - collecting data for its own sake, because they can where it provides little value to them but exposes their users to risk. Take the example of storing WiFi passwords - Tesla have NO need to take those from your car and upload them except for the purposes of accessing your network without permission, or if they are compromised someone else doing the same.

In time, government might have to catch up with legislation to cut down on unreasonable data slurping, except it would be difficult to define and, frankly, the governments are probably delighted that we're surrendering our freedom. #orwell

enumerating your concerns, aren't they accentuating the vulnerabilities for possible exploit?

Doubtful; the blackhats are far ahead of the rest of us.

 

[TDUK101]

The best way not to be tracked is get a technology that is not trackable.

Right now, that is feasible. Eventually it will be almost impossible to go off the grid. Do Tesla or any other information collector not have a responsibility to not only protect our data, use it on a need-to-know basis and ensure us that they have suitable controls and an audit trail in place? Tesla might be ahead of others on cybersecurity but no-one and nothing is completely secure. You can't steal my WiFi WPA2 keys from Tesla if they don't have them in the first place (for example). Sure, I can set up a specific VLAN for my car, but how many people understand that?

 

[Tam]

Do Tesla or any other information collector not have a responsibility to not only protect our data..

Companies may say things that are pleasing to your ears but the fact that you are willing to use a trackable technology is defeating your own prudent instinct.

For example, your boss may say that your work e-mail is very secured and protected but he himself can read your private work e-mail without even you knowing it and he doesn't even need to know your password of your work e-mail.

So, in this case, if you don't want your boss to read your work private e-mail, you should follow your instinct and use a third party e-mail system (they way that Hillary Clinton did) and not demanding your boss to reassure you that your work e-mail is really and real, real, really private!

The same way with Apple who fights for your privacy against government request to access your Iphone (as in Riverside, CA terrorist case.)

Very nice gesture but the government just paid the money for a third party and accessed your Iphone anyhow, without any help from Apple.

The moral story is: If you want to keep your phone untrackable, you do not buy an Iphone even if Apple promises to keep your info private.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Tesla does not disclose the data recorded in your vehicle to any third party except when: • An agreement or consent from the vehicle’s owner (or the leasing company for a leased vehicle) is obtained. • Officially requested by the police or other authorities. • Used as a defense for Tesla in a lawsuit. • ... but I'm not sure that there was any law suit actually filed at the stages when various claims were refuted by their telematics data. they have proven (numerous times) that they can and will disclose information without your consent. They also clearly consider all the data they collect from your vehicle as belonging to TESLA.

I think this here is the important part.

We can never protect ourselves fully against data breaches or government interventions, but there are differences in the company policy and culture on how they interact with out data. Those we should understand and decide on how to deal with them.

Apple, for example, has been shown to go to lengths to protect the privacy of its customer's encrypted content. Even fighting the government.

Tesla, on the other hand, has been shown to loudly volunteer their customer's driving data to any media that will listen to them, when it seems to be in Tesla's best interest PR-wise (e.g. after a crash).

Clearly there are differences in company policies on how they treat customer privacy issues.

Unfortunately, there is precedent to conclude Tesla in particular does not care about their customer's privacy as a policy.

One, of course, has to decide if they are willing to live with that. Many people are. But it also doesn't help to pretend all companies would be similar - they are not.

 

[Tam]

...Tesla, on the other hand, has been shown to loudly volunteer their customer's driving data...

True.

I still don't understand for those who value privacy but still drive a Tesla as history has demonstrated that it has widely released drivers' data repeatedly and here are just a sample:

1) BBC Top Gear
2) New York Times reporter Broder
3) Wisconsin Anesthesiologist doctor Robert Montgomery...

Stop asking innocent questions! It's very simple: the big brother Tesla is watching you, period!