Tesla Product Announcement at noon

[Garlan Garner]

I agree, and I rather suspect that everybody on the forum does as well. Unfortunately it's not us that you have to convince!!! I suspect that, at some point, Tesla will have to allow this. What they're doing isn't really quite kosher and at some point some regulatory agency will have something to say about it, I'm certain.

If I had to guess, I'd bet that the issue is Tesla's rather extreme market segmentation and pricing strategy. If you can buy a 2 year old used 90kwh battery for 10K and put it into a new 60D, why pay the huge price difference between a 60D and 90D? They're exactly the same car after all. This issue will go away as the product line matures. Tesla needs to further differentiate the high and low end - with clear visual cues and features that only exist on the higher end vehicles. In the meantime they're doing what they can to protect their margins, dicey though it may be.

Regardless of anything people here have to say, I believe that Tesla is doing a fantastic job as far as model pricing and features are concerned. I would doubt that anyone in this forum would had all of the necessary ingredients to do what Tesla/Elon has done in such a short time. If you had it...you should have done it yourselves. Much of what Tesla is doing right now is what they had to do to get to this point in the first place. They need to make money. People ( rich people in my estimation ) are buying their cars in droves. Its beautiful. There are many comments in this forum that focuses on a single aspect of the company or the business.
It's just astounding when folks say things like "Tesla should". If you were so brilliant...why don't you start a company like Tesla and do it. Lets sit back and watch that show. I have a business and there are so many reasons that things are done that look foreign to the causal outside observer, but make perfect business sense.
Tesla has even gone so far as to say "why" they do certain things that I would never have let get out there, but it seems to work in their favor. Things like "Thanks MS and MX buyers because you helped finance the M3 line". Now even a new one "Thanks to all of the 100D buyers and upgraders because you are financing the next battery for the M3". Maybe their honesty broods confidence in their customers.

 

[sandpiper]

Regardless of anything people here have to say, I believe that Tesla is doing a fantastic job as far as model pricing and features are concerned. I would doubt that anyone in this forum would had all of the necessary ingredients to do what Tesla/Elon has done in such a short time. If you had it...you should have done it yourselves. Much of what Tesla is doing right now is what they had to do to get to this point in the first place. They need to make money. People ( rich people in my estimation ) are buying their cars in droves. Its beautiful. There are many comments in this forum that focuses on a single aspect of the company or the business.
It's just astounding when folks say things like "Tesla should". If you were so brilliant...why don't you start a company like Tesla and do it. Lets sit back and watch that show. I have a business and there are so many reasons that things are done that look foreign to the causal outside observer, but make perfect business sense.
Tesla has even gone so far as to say "why" they do certain things that I would never have let get out there, but it seems to work in their favor. Things like "Thanks MS and MX buyers because you helped finance the M3 line". Now even a new one "Thanks to all of the 100D buyers and upgraders because you are financing the next battery for the M3". Maybe their honesty broods confidence in their customers.

No doubt you're correct - although I'm not sure what it had to do with my comment. Tesla's current pricing strategy is required; they need to do differential pricing. But I stand by my point that it's unsustainable in it's current form. Unlike with larger automakers, there is very little substantive difference between the top and bottom end. A 60D is pretty much the same car as a P100D that is 3x the price. And there really isn't much difference in incremental production cost - maybe $8000 worth of cells/pack/fuse, a larger rear motor, and then some frippery. Generously let's say $15,000 difference in incremental production cost.

That Tesla can charge what they do for the higher end cars is testament to their success. But competition will come, and when it does the ability do such extreme differential pricing on essentially the same car will evaporate. They need to come up with another way to sell both 60K and 170K cars; battery capacity alone won't do it. And I suspect this business of software enabling features that are already built in, doesn't make for good PR.

Also... as to being critical of Tesla policies. People here are fans - me included. Without going so far as to imagine that I've offered anything that Tesla hasn't considered, I expect that Tesla monitors these forums to gain some insight as to what effect their policies are having on the opinions of their greatest supporters. We are a canary in the coal mine, and it's wise to watch the canary. And so I figure that constructive criticism is of more value than mindless fawning adoration.

 

[AZ Desert Driver]

What they're doing isn't really quite kosher and at some point some regulatory agency will have something to say about it, I'm certain.

I did not follow this logic. Using an ICE analogy, I should be able to replace my V6 with another junkyard V6 to repair a blown engine. Or, I might shoehorn in a big V8 and put a blower on that monster. Engine swap requires some skill, and special parts to fit and attach as needed. I think battery swap would be the same. I don't see Regulatory Body getting involved with ICE swaps, so why on battery swaps?
OK- that the physical side of a mature industry with junkyards full of parts and a tribe of mechanics capable of this. Tesla does not have enough history to have a junkyard. Every battery is special, valuable and a resource worthy of management. Why sell a battery for $1000 when you can sell it for $10,000? More on point - the content of a pack is breakthrough engineering, and I would not want my company secrets to be easily revealed to my competitors. yeah- patents have been released, but patents don't reveal all the engineering secrets.
My prediction ----years from now, battery swap may be common. For now, 18650 packs will evolve into 20-71 packs; fuse contactors will evolve in metallurgy and "old" packs will be undesirable. Junkyards with obsolete designs will quickly become recycled into raw materials. Junkyards of replaceable packs are way, way off in the future. Regulators won't have much to say.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Once you get your car and have had it a while you will begin to understand the comments about Tesla's transparency and communication issues.
Secondly, we all love our cars but if you are annoyed by the focus on specific issues and speculative comments you are probably in the wrong place.

Oh no... absolutely not. I am well seasoned about transparency and communication issues. However they have benefited Tesla more they that have been found to be detrimental.
You will see later on in life that not everything is black or white.

I'm not annoyed at all with over 1600 posts since April to prove it. . I'm much to old to be annoyed by a forum. That's just Ludicrous.

 

[Garlan Garner]

No doubt you're correct - although I'm not sure what it had to do with my comment. Tesla's current pricing strategy is required; they need to do differential pricing. But I stand by my point that it's unsustainable in it's current form. Unlike with larger automakers, there is very little substantive difference between the top and bottom end. A 60D is pretty much the same car as a P100D that is 3x the price. And there really isn't much difference in incremental production cost - maybe $8000 worth of cells/pack/fuse, a larger rear motor, and then some frippery. Generously let's say $15,000 difference in incremental production cost.

That Tesla can charge what they do for the higher end cars is testament to their success. But competition will come, and when it does the ability do such extreme differential pricing on essentially the same car will evaporate. They need to come up with another way to sell both 60K and 170K cars; battery capacity alone won't do it. And I suspect this business of software enabling features that are already built in, doesn't make for good PR.

Also... as to being critical of Tesla policies. People here are fans - me included. Without going so far as to imagine that I've offered anything that Tesla hasn't considered, I expect that Tesla monitors these forums to gain some insight as to what effect their policies are having on the opinions of their greatest supporters. We are a canary in the coal mine, and it's wise to watch the canary. And so I figure that constructive criticism is of more value than mindless fawning adoration.

I would have to disagree that current pricing has to be changed.

The MS is falling within the pricing platform of it's current ICE competition and beyond - just nicely.

The MS is allowed in the conversation with the Porsche 918 as far as 0-60 performance
The MS is allowed in the conversation with the BMW 7 and I8 series as far as size is concerned.
The MS is allowed in the conversation with all high end US made cars and destroys them on many levels such as Safety, performance, technology...and such.

To me that is factual adoration. I love that an AMERICAN car company has folks in other countries grasping for its product. A product that isn't contributing to the atmospheric poison that is air pollution. Outside of the Corvette...what other American Car are people in ...lets see..... Australia clamoring for?

I'm a fan of Tesla - absolutely I am....but I'm a factual fan.

 

[msnow]

Oh no... absolutely not. I am well seasoned about transparency and communication issues. However they have benefited Tesla more they that have been found to be detrimental.
You will see later on in life that not everything is black or white.

I'm not annoyed at all with over 1600 posts since April to prove it. . I'm much to old to be annoyed by a forum. That's just Ludicrous.

okay, well you made a lot of inaccurate assumptions here so I'll just leave it at that.

 

[Garlan Garner]

okay, well you made a lot of inaccurate assumptions here so I'll just leave it at that.

Thanks

 

[supratachophobia]

Regardless of anything people here have to say, I believe that Tesla is doing a fantastic job as far as model pricing and features are concerned. I would doubt that anyone in this forum would had all of the necessary ingredients to do what Tesla/Elon has done in such a short time. If you had it...you should have done it yourselves. Much of what Tesla is doing right now is what they had to do to get to this point in the first place. They need to make money. People ( rich people in my estimation ) are buying their cars in droves. Its beautiful. There are many comments in this forum that focuses on a single aspect of the company or the business.
It's just astounding when folks say things like "Tesla should". If you were so brilliant...why don't you start a company like Tesla and do it. Lets sit back and watch that show. I have a business and there are so many reasons that things are done that look foreign to the causal outside observer, but make perfect business sense.
Tesla has even gone so far as to say "why" they do certain things that I would never have let get out there, but it seems to work in their favor. Things like "Thanks MS and MX buyers because you helped finance the M3 line". Now even a new one "Thanks to all of the 100D buyers and upgraders because you are financing the next battery for the M3". Maybe their honesty broods confidence in their customers.

I don't think they've done at bad job overall persay. But wherever I say "Tesla should....", It's because of a few reasons.

1. My ideas are awesome, but I don't have a car company.
2. Tesla needs to keep moving forward, yet they have so much on their plate. Who better to take suggestions from on what to focus, than their loyal ownership base which helped them succeed?
3. They create an environment where they are actively seeking feedback. Now, they are tight lipped on individual responses, but they do listen and that precedent is set.

 

[supratachophobia]

My guess is that Tesla doesn't want to do that because there would be more demand for upgrades to 40s/60s/75s than there will be for upgrades to 85s/90s.

So what they will probably end up doing is using the returned 90, and 85 if they let them upgrade, kWh ludicrous packs for a combination of loaner batteries for warranty purposes and to upgrade a 40/60/75 that gets turned in and becomes part of the CPO program. Since they essentially get the 90 kWh pack for free and all they have to do is apply a software change and a few dollars of badging changes and they can sell it as a Model S 90, giving them the most profit possible and only having to warranty the battery for the least amount of time. And then still having the old 60/75 kWh pack available for warranty loaners or recycling.

I disagree. I think defined upgrade options later on down the road will increase sales rather than canlbalize them. Think of all the people worried about how their packs are going to fair, or worrying about being upstaged after 1 year of ownership? Cell phones have paralyzed us in this aspect so that we are upgrading every year.

 

[Chopr147]

On the pricing, I am a happy camper! But that's because I have a 60D. If I were to buy a P90D or now 100 I may not be quite as happy

 

[WarpedOne]

1. My ideas are awesome, but I don't have a car company.

Elon's ideas in 2003 were also awesome and he also did not have a car company.

2. Tesla needs to keep moving forward, yet they have so much on their plate. Who better to take suggestions from on what to focus, than their loyal ownership base which helped them succeed?

Tesla is moving forwar but not by following their fans but their fans are following them.
When Tesla creates EV truck, they will absolutely publish its 0-60 time

3. They create an environment where they are actively seeking feedback. Now, they are tight lipped on individual responses, but they do listen and that precedent is set.

Everyone listens and everyone decides how to act on what was heard.

 

[Garlan Garner]

I don't think they've done at bad job overall persay. But wherever I say "Tesla should....", It's because of a few reasons.

1. My ideas are awesome, but I don't have a car company.
2. Tesla needs to keep moving forward, yet they have so much on their plate. Who better to take suggestions from on what to focus, than their loyal ownership base which helped them succeed?
3. They create an environment where they are actively seeking feedback. Now, they are tight lipped on individual responses, but they do listen and that precedent is set.

I'm just having a conversation with you...I'm not really disagreeing. I have a different perspective on some insignificant parts.

I agree that they should listed to their loyal ownership concerning what the ownership wants in a car. The problem for me is that loyal ownership wants things the benefit themselves. And that's fine. Nothing wrong with that at all. I don't believe for one moment that they are being selfish.
However as we may all know...Tesla would tank if they followed all of the advice and desires in this forum or from their loyal customers. For example: Who in this forum would have placed a $20k price tag on the 100D upgrade?
Now I do understand that the $20k is not only for battery. I went on the Tesla website and configured a 100D and there are "options" that are now standard in the 100D that weren't on other versions ...so it's really difficult to know how much of the $20k is for the battery. Anywhoo... For whatever reason Tesla made the $20k upgrade cost that much....they did it. The only thing I heard without question is that part of the cost is for the development of something else that has to do with a battery.

I agree and love that Tesla has created an environment to communicate with their customers as other car manufacturers have.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Elon's ideas in 2003 were also awesome and he also did not have a car company.


Tesla is moving forwar but not by following their fans but their fans are following them.
When Tesla creates EV truck, they will absolutely publish its 0-60 time


Everyone listens and everyone decides how to act on what was heard.

I agree 100%

 

[Garlan Garner]

On the pricing, I am a happy camper! But that's because I have a 60D. If I were to buy a P90D or now 100 I may not be quite as happy

Great post.

 

[Garlan Garner]

I remember Elon Musk on a TV show with the president of Panasonic next to him and he said something really interesting to me - ( as far as this discussion goes ).

He said "We have always had the ability to make a car that goes 300 - 400 miles, however we have to first of all find out if anyone would buy it". Then he proceeded to say that pretty much everything in the car could remain the same except for the battery, however the cost of producing the battery at that time would price the car beyond the target audience.
One more thing he said that was as interesting as the first statement was.... If we price the MS beyond that which people can afford, then the M3 would not even be possible.

With that said...I would suspect that bundling the new 100D battery with all of the mandatory options now included on that model must be an acceptable price range that Tesla believes would attract their target audience base so that they can continue fund the M3.

I've got my popcorn and I'm waiting to see.......


I'm waiting to see the price of the MS and MX that is not produced to get funding for something else. How much would that model cost?

 

[sandpiper]

I did not follow this logic. Using an ICE analogy, I should be able to replace my V6 with another junkyard V6 to repair a blown engine. Or, I might shoehorn in a big V8 and put a blower on that monster. Engine swap requires some skill, and special parts to fit and attach as needed. I think battery swap would be the same. I don't see Regulatory Body getting involved with ICE swaps, so why on battery swaps?
OK- that the physical side of a mature industry with junkyards full of parts and a tribe of mechanics capable of this. Tesla does not have enough history to have a junkyard. Every battery is special, valuable and a resource worthy of management. Why sell a battery for $1000 when you can sell it for $10,000? More on point - the content of a pack is breakthrough engineering, and I would not want my company secrets to be easily revealed to my competitors. yeah- patents have been released, but patents don't reveal all the engineering secrets.
My prediction ----years from now, battery swap may be common. For now, 18650 packs will evolve into 20-71 packs; fuse contactors will evolve in metallurgy and "old" packs will be undesirable. Junkyards with obsolete designs will quickly become recycled into raw materials. Junkyards of replaceable packs are way, way off in the future. Regulators won't have much to say.

What's not quite kosher is to say "I won't sell you a new 2016 V6 (yes with 50 more HP) to install in your car, unless you give me your perfectly good 2014 engine - and no I won't pay you anything for it. And no you can't sell it to anybody else.". That's all despite the fact that the mounts & external connections are exactly the same.

If I want, I'm quite sure I can hire a GM shop to replace the base engine in my car with a higher end one - assuming it's compatible. Yes I will pay for all of the parts and labour. And then I can turn around and sell the old engine to anybody I please for whatever the market will bear.

I don't blame Tesla for trying to control this. Heck I'd do the same. But I don't think it will stand indefinitely. They should plan for it.

 

[sandpiper]

I'm waiting to see the price of the MS and MX that is not produced to get funding for something else. How much would that model cost?

You'll be waiting forever. There will always be another new product to develop and fund. Or the company will stagnate and die.

 

[supratachophobia]

I'm just having a conversation with you...I'm not really disagreeing. I have a different perspective on some insignificant parts.

I agree that they should listed to their loyal ownership concerning what the ownership wants in a car. The problem for me is that loyal ownership wants things the benefit themselves. And that's fine. Nothing wrong with that at all. I don't believe for one moment that they are being selfish.
However as we may all know...Tesla would tank if they followed all of the advice and desires in this forum or from their loyal customers. For example: Who in this forum would have placed a $20k price tag on the 100D upgrade?
Now I do understand that the $20k is not only for battery. I went on the Tesla website and configured a 100D and there are "options" that are now standard in the 100D that weren't on other versions ...so it's really difficult to know how much of the $20k is for the battery. Anywhoo... For whatever reason Tesla made the $20k upgrade cost that much....they did it. The only thing I heard without question is that part of the cost is for the development of something else that has to do with a battery.

I agree and love that Tesla has created an environment to communicate with their customers as other car manufacturers have.

I like conversation. I think what is sometimes overlooked by myself and others is that a feature that benefits current ownership is the feature that either draws a new buyer in off the street or pillages them from the sale of another car brand without that feature. I think those are the features that Tesla should prioritize. And I would say they do for the most part, albeit slowly at times.

 

[supratachophobia]

I'm waiting to see the price of the MS and MX that is not produced to get funding for something else. How much would that model cost?

That will never ever happen unfortunately. Keep in mind that Tesla's needs to keep pricing these items up because if they don't, they dilute resale value of current cars. It's not the best option, to be sure. But it's the only one that does the least amount of damage. They still have lower priced options at the bottom end of the product line, and then of course, model 3.

 

[Garlan Garner]

You'll be waiting forever. There will always be another new product to develop and fund. Or the company will stagnate and die.

Yep. - Unless the M3 or Tesla will get to the point where the M3 can fund itself.