Tesla Radar Speculation

[enemji]

Hmm Radar can't see

How can it see painted signs and painted road lanes?

 

[enemji]

Radar is not supposed to “see“ the road. It’s supposed to “see” objects in front of you, and determine their distance. Your position seemed to be that radar/LIDAR/etc. would be useless in low visibility situations because they couldn’t “see the road”. I was pointing out that radar can be very useful in low visibility situations.

Driving requires you to see the road lanes and signage, not just avoid slamming into another object.

 

[enemji]

Show me a L5 train on a railroad first before anyone goes claiming they know how to build a L5 automobile that runs in uncontrolled roads.

 

[dramsey]

Driving requires you to see the road lanes and signage, not just avoid slamming into another object.

Which is why radar isn’t your only sensor. You suggested radar was useless because it couldn’t see the road. I pointed out that’s not what it’s for, and it can be very useful otherwise, which is probably why it‘s so common on cars these days.

 

[enemji]

Which is why radar isn’t your only sensor. You suggested radar was useless because it couldn’t see the road. I pointed out that’s not what it’s for, and it can be very useful otherwise, which is probably why it‘s so common on cars these days.

As of now, Radar is useless in zero visibility conditions where a camera cannot see. Sure the radar will tell you that there is no object ahead of you, but it will not tell you if you are on the road or off the road, let alone that you are going in the right lane or not.

 

[diplomat33]

As of now, Radar is useless in zero visibility conditions where a camera cannot see. Sure the radar will tell you that there is no object ahead of you, but it will not tell you if you are on the road or off the road.

Being able to detect objects in zero visibility is still very useful. So radar is not useless in zero visibility conditions. Just because radar can't see the road, does not make it useless. It can still serve other useful purposes. And the HD map can tell you where the road is even in zero visibility.

 

[diplomat33]

Show me a L5 train on a railroad first before anyone goes claiming they know how to build a L5 automobile that runs in uncontrolled roads.

The SAE levels only apply to vehicles on roads. They don't apply to trains. So a L5 train makes no sense.

 

[enemji]

Being able to detect objects in zero visibility is still very useful. So radar is not useless in zero visibility conditions. Just because radar can't see the road, does not make it useless. It can still serve other useful purposes. And the HD map can tell you where the road is even in zero visibility.

For once I will have to disagree with you. Sadly.
Detecting objects is useless unless combined with the ability to actually drive. Without that I would just be sitting in a parking lot hoping something shows up on the radar screen and makes it useful.

 

[Dewg]

Being able to detect objects in zero visibility is still very useful. So radar is not useless in zero visibility conditions. Just because radar can't see the road, does not make it useless. It can still serve other useful purposes. And the HD map can tell you where the road is even in zero visibility.

I agree with @diplomat33 that RADAR has usefulness in certain situations. As I said before, if you are talking about adaptive cruise control with a lead car, RADAR can help you continue driving with low visibility. With pinpoint GPS accuracy and HD maps, you could even maintain your lane in zero visibility - but again you'd have to have a lead car. Without a lead car, you'd need a camera to be able to see something in order to continue driving, such as signal lights at intersections. With a lead car, they'd stop at the red light and your car would stop behind them with RADAR.

 

[diplomat33]

Detecting objects is useless unless combined with the ability to actually drive. Without that I would just be sitting in a parking lot hoping something shows up on the radar screen and makes it useful.

But you can combine detecting objects with the ability to actually drive. So it is not useless. You can combine radar with other things like HD maps to be able to drive. Your error is that you think that since radar-only can't actually drive then it is useless. But no one sensor can do everything. Just because a sensor can't do everything, does not make it useless. Radar can still serve a useful purpose and it can be combined with other sensors to actually drive.

 

[Tam]

As of now, Radar is useless in zero visibility conditions where a camera cannot see. Sure the radar will tell you that there is no object ahead of you, but it will not tell you if you are on the road or off the road, let alone that you are going in the right lane or not.

I encountered thick fog coming down the Tejon Pass Mountain on I-5N and my Lucid Grand Touring didn't lose its Highway Assistance function (Tesla's equivalent TACC+AutoSteer). It couldn't see the lanes but it was deploying Tesla's platooning or just following the leader like sheeps and forgetting about lanes. The ICE driver in front leads the way.

Tesla radar is very bad at stationary obstacles but it is excellent with moving obstacles. In the dark, drivers might get distracted and fail to detect motorcycles in front but if the radar was deployed, it's likely three fatal collisions would have been prevented:

Thursday, 07/07/2022 04:47AM Riverside, CA
Sunday, 07/24/2022 01:10AM Draper, UT
Saturday, 08/27/2022 02:00AM Boca Raton, FL

 

[enemji]

But you can combine detecting objects with the ability to actually drive. So it is not useless. You can combine radar with other things like HD maps to be able to drive. Your error is that you think that since radar-only can't actually drive then it is useless. But no one sensor can do everything. Just because a sensor can't do everything, does not make it useless. Radar can still serve a useful purpose and it can be combined with other sensors to actually drive.

Radar as it exists today, can only be used as a secondary, and not the primary, for the intended purpose of driving a vehicle on a city/highway road.

So if the primary purpose is not being fulfilled, what is the purpose of fulfilling the secondary???

 

[enemji]

I encountered thick fog coming down the Tejon Pass Mountain on I-5N and my Lucid Grand Touring didn't lose its Highway Assistance function (Tesla's equivalent TACC+AutoSteer). It couldn't see the lanes but it was deploying Tesla's platooning or just following the leader like sheeps and forgetting about lanes. The ICE driver in front leads the way.

Tesla radar is very bad at stationary obstacles but it is excellent with moving obstacles. In the dark, drivers might get distracted and fail to detect motorcycles in front but if the radar was deployed, it's likely three fatal collisions would have been prevented:

Thursday, 07/07/2022 04:47AM Riverside, CA
Sunday, 07/24/2022 01:10AM Draper, UT
Saturday, 08/27/2022 02:00AM Boca Raton, FL

How does it follow the leader if it cannot see? Or does it have LiDAR?

 

[diplomat33]

Radar as it exists today, can only be used as a secondary, and not the primary, for the intended purpose of driving a vehicle on a city/highway road.

You are missing the point. Yes, radar is secondary. But a sensor does not have to be the primary in order to be useful. A sensor can be the secondary and still be useful. You seem to think that a sensor has to be the primary and be able to do all the driving in order to be useful. That is a "vision-only" way of looking at things. That is the wrong way to look at things. No sensor can do all the driving perfectly. Yes, some sensors are primary and some are secondary but they work together to make self-driving more reliable.

So if the primary purpose is not being fulfilled, what is the purpose of fulfilling the secondary???

The purpose of being secondary is to be a back-up for safety critical tasks. Radar is excellent at position and velocity detection in conditions where cameras fail. So radar can detect an object that a camera will miss. For example, when driving in rain or fog, cameras might not see a car and you might hit it, but radar will help you avoid the crash. So radar increases safety. That is a very useful purpose. Now you will probably say "what does it matter it prevents a collision, if it can't see the road?" My point is that other sensors will see the road. It is still useful to have radar that prevents the collision. What would be the point of seeing the road if you crash into an unseen object? Of course, you need to see the road but you also need to avoid the crash. Radar will help you avoid the crash. That is very useful.

 

[enemji]

You are missing the point. Yes, radar is secondary. But a sensor does not have to be the primary in order to be useful. A sensor can be the secondary and still be useful. You seem to think that a sensor has to be the primary and be able to do all the driving in order to be useful. That is a "vision-only" way of looking at things. That is the wrong way to look at things. No sensor can do all the driving perfectly. Yes, some sensors are primary and some are secondary but they work together to make self-driving more reliable.



The purpose of being secondary is to be a back-up for safety critical tasks. Radar is excellent at position and velocity detection in conditions where cameras fail. So radar can detect an object that a camera will miss. For example, when driving in rain or fog, cameras might not see a car and you might hit it, but radar will help you avoid the crash. So radar increases safety. That is a very useful purpose. Now you will probably say "what does it matter it prevents a collision, if it can't see the road?" My point is that other sensors will see the road. It is still useful to have radar that prevents the collision. What would be the point of seeing the road if you crash into an unseen object? Of course, you need to see the road but you also need to avoid the crash. Radar will help you avoid the crash. That is very useful.

My viewpoint was presented to answer to an earlier post where it was indicated that if we had radar we would be able to drive in zero visibility weather. My viewpoint is not addressing the general usability of radar.

 

[Tam]

How does it follow the leader if it cannot see? Or does it have LiDAR?

That's the function of "platooning" that Tesla talked about when introducing the Semi. Fully platooning might require all the sensors, including LIDAR. In Lucid's case, it currently only uses Radar and not Lidar. It works by keeping a constant distance from the lead car and autosteers according to that measurement. Minimal curves are fine, but it might not autosteer blindly (using length instead of cameras) fast enough to keep up with the lead car in sharper turns.

Prior the Lucid, I have used current Tesla cars that have Autopilot and radar to do crude Platooning:

Turn on your Autopilot in clear weather, but if you expect that fog is ahead, override the Autosteer but do not turn off TACC. If it then becomes foggy and unusable by the cameras, the TACC will continue to work to keep distance from the lead car. But you still have to steer manually.

 

[enemji]

That's the function of "platooning" that Tesla talked about when introducing the Semi. Fully platooning might require all the sensors, including LIDAR. In Lucid's case, it currently only uses Radar and not Lidar. It works by keeping a constant distance from the lead car and autosteers according to that measurement. Minimal curves are fine, but it might not autosteer blindly (using length instead of cameras) fast enough to keep up with the lead car in sharper turns.

Prior the Lucid, I have used current Tesla cars that have Autopilot and radar to do crude Platooning:

Turn on your Autopilot in clear weather, but if you expect that fog is ahead, override the Autosteer but do not turn off TACC. If it then becomes foggy and unusable by the cameras, the TACC will continue to work to keep distance from the lead car. But you still have to steer manually.

I have ”done” this platooning with my 2022 M3LR in night as well as heavy rains. The vision worked flawlessly.

 

[Jjrss]

I have ”done” this platooning with my 2022 M3LR in night as well as heavy rains. The vision worked flawlessly.

Ive had it freak out on several occasions in moderate rain, and outright full panic "take control now" in heavy rains that never affected the car when radar was still active (2021 April MYLR 7 Seater).

It also randomly slows 5~10 miles in dry weather around large white box trucks, activates wipers on bone dry windshield and fails to keep distance with lead cars... none of which happened when the radar was still active.

I live in Washington... radarless Tesla doesnt mix well with the climate here.

 

[enemji]

Ive had it freak out on several occasions in moderate rain, and outright full panic "take control now" in heavy rains that never affected the car when radar was still active (2021 April MYLR 7 Seater).

It also randomly slows 5~10 miles in dry weather around large white box trucks, activates wipers on bone dry windshield and fails to keep distance with lead cars... none of which happened when the radar was still active.

I live in Washington... radarless Tesla doesnt mix well with the climate here.

Never had anything like that happen with me. Which parameter is the cause? Location? Altitude? Age of car? HW Version?

 

[Jjrss]

Never had anything like that happen with me. Which parameter is the cause? Location? Altitude? Age of car? HW Version?

Standard I-5 corridor between Seattle and Portland.

Maybe its that yours doesnt have passenger lower lumbar? All the sensors are the same minus the added weight of a dead radar (plus the year and a half of driving it with it actually working, without all of the radarless quirks)