Tesla Sales Banned in New Jersey... hopefully not for long!

[malcolm]

It will be sooner than Model E.

Sales to overseas markets are anticipated to grow considerably, especially China.

Even if eventually all 50 states manage to prohibit direct vehicle sales, Tesla can still sell cars direct.

It just won't be to Americans

http://www.streetinsider.com/Analys...is+Small+Part+of+the+Pie+-+Baird/9274200.html

 

[apvbguy]

What if Elon owned them personally rather than Tesla?

since elon still owns a huge amount of stock it isn't possible

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Seems like it'd be cheaper to fight one federal battle than 50 state battles.

10th amendment

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When people are told by government that they aren't allowed to have something,

nobody has said that people in NJ cannot buy or own a tesla, all that was said that tesla cannot sell to vehicle direct to the consumer

 

[brianman]

Seems like it'd be cheaper to fight one federal battle than 50 state battles.

You're assuming they win that fight.

As it stands today, some states are "troublesome" (to Tesla) and "annoying" (to customers) but citizens can still manage to get the car. If federal went "not a good way", then the entire country could be a no-fly zone. That's a pretty big gamble. Better to play small ball and build public awareness and support before taking the gamble.

 

[ckessel]

You're assuming they win that fight.

As it stands today, some states are "troublesome" (to Tesla) and "annoying" (to customers) but citizens can still manage to get the car. If federal went "not a good way", then the entire country could be a no-fly zone. That's a pretty big gamble. Better to play small ball and build public awareness and support before taking the gamble.

Losing a federal case to sell doesn't suddenly cause Tesla to be excluded from every state.

There's no gamble at all. Either they win and can sell in every state or they lose and they're in the exact state by state situation they're in now.

 

[dsm363]

You're assuming they win that fight.

As it stands today, some states are "troublesome" (to Tesla) and "annoying" (to customers) but citizens can still manage to get the car. If federal went "not a good way", then the entire country could be a no-fly zone. That's a pretty big gamble. Better to play small ball and build public awareness and support before taking the gamble.

That's a risk but it's much harder for the dealership lobby to buy off federal judges (and illegal) than local officials with campaign dollars.

 

[JNH3171]

Rally to New Jersey to show we won't put up with their dirty tactics!

Tesla is under attack in New Jersey! Yesterday we received news that Governor Christie’s administration has gone back on its word to delay a proposed anti-Tesla regulation so that the matter can be handled in the legislature. Rather than stick up for New Jersey consumers, the Administration and the New Jersey Motor Vehicle Commission are thwarting the legislature at the behest of a special interest group looking to protect its monopoly at the expense of New Jersey consumers. Instead, the Administration has decided to expedite Rule Proposal PRN 2013-138 that would curtail Tesla’s sales operations and jeopardize our existing retail licenses in the state. Tesla could be forced to shutter all operations in the state as early as this afternoon!

You can show your support by contacting the Governor or your local State Legislator, and let them know that you want Tesla to stay and grow in New Jersey!

Other ways to show support:

Please join us and other Tesla Advocates at the New Jersey Motor Vehicle Commission’s meeting to help defeat this regulation.

What:New Jersey Motor Vehicle Commission Meeting

When:Tuesday, March 11th at 2pm

Where:New Jersey Motor Vehicle Commission

225 East State Street

Trenton, NJ 08608

There needs to be an east coast rally to decend on NJ and show that we won't put up with this. My Tesla colleagues up here in New England are ready to join the fight by massing as many Tesla owners as possible by showing up at the NJ state house, and the homes and locations of Chris Christie, Jim Appleton (NJ Car) and ask them to talk to us. One of my colleagues had a great idea, lets block (or at least drive real slow) on the GWB with Teslas rather than orange cones and barricades. Plan a date, plan the rally map, and put the word out and we will be there.

 

[mitch672]

Seems like it'd be cheaper to fight one federal battle than 50 state battles.

As had been pointed out before, if Tesla takes this to the state courts, then ultimately to the Supreme Court too early, they risk getting the dealer protection laws overturned before they have large amounts of product to sell. This would only help the existing manufacturers such as GM, Ford and others setup direct sales models, helping them... Maybe they see no need to assist existing manufacturers, timing is everything...

 

[apvbguy]

Losing a federal case to sell doesn't suddenly cause Tesla to be excluded from every state.

you need to have a federal case to lose a federal case. right now there is no case

 

[brianman]

Losing a federal case to sell doesn't suddenly cause Tesla to be excluded from every state.

There's no gamble at all. Either they win and can sell in every state or they lose and they're in the exact state by state situation they're in now.

I think we just see things differently here. There are much bigger stakes if this goes federal than the current challenges they're seeing in states right now. It could very well end up them being excluded from selling on the entire continent. I, for one, probably wouldn't be buying a Tesla if it had to be imported by boat.

 

[apvbguy]

I think we just see things differently here. There are much bigger stakes if this goes federal than the current challenges they're seeing in states right now. It could very well end up them being excluded from selling on the entire continent. I, for one, probably wouldn't be buying a Tesla if it had to be imported by boat.

could you explain to me how would tesla being banned from selling vehicles in the US happen?

 

[Curt Renz]

10th amendment

US Constitution, Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3 (Commerce Clause):

The Congress shall have power...
To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;

I've been working on this issue with my US Senator Dick Durbin who is the majority whip. He may get together with others regarding possible legislation. Durbin is the one who first encouraged our other senator from Illinois to run for president. Obama always responded personally to my emails when he was in the senate. Now I'm using Durbin as an intermediary.

 

[dsm363]

Tesla Sales Banned in New Jersey

could you explain to me how would tesla being banned from selling vehicles in the US happen?

Couldn't one federal case could ban all direct sales if it didn't go their way? Their only option at that point would be traditional dealership model.

 

[ckessel]

I think we just see things differently here. There are much bigger stakes if this goes federal than the current challenges they're seeing in states right now. It could very well end up them being excluded from selling on the entire continent. I, for one, probably wouldn't be buying a Tesla if it had to be imported by boat.

You'll have to back that up. How would exclude Tesla from the entire continent (presumably you mean the US, not the actual continent)?

There's no federal law on the books excluding Tesla's direct sales. Taking it though the court as a violation of, say, the commerce clause, doesn't suddenly add a law if the lawsuit fails.

 

[rolosrevenge]

- In an informal poll, over 80% of NJ citizens (or at least those who read the NJ paper) voted to be allowed to buy direct from Tesla.
- People world-wide are aware of what is going on in NJ.
- A couple of NJ legislators are now talking about getting this overturned.
- In the meantime, NJ citizens are free to drive a arguably short distance and visit Tesla showrooms right across the state line. No laws against purchase.

So because of Tesla's 'in your face' response, we have world-wide publicity about what the dealerships are about - meaning citizens in other states are more informed than they would have been, when the same starts to happen there. The NJ kerfuffle will be something that no other governor or state legislator will want to repeat.

Tons of free publicity.

Inevitably, Tesla will be selling in NJ.

Huge positive publicity Tesla, huge negative publicity dealerships, temporary inconvenience to consumers while they vote with their feet out of state. Tesla has a supply constraint, not demand constraint. Losing a few sales while they fight this battle isn't an issue.

Of course, the alternative was they could have played typical NJ politics, quietly made it happen, and continued to fight each state quietly (read 'expensively') as the dealership lobby brought full force to bear. I'm of the school that sometimes the curtain needs to be ripped back, way back, to let the sun shine in so everyone can see what's going on.

Short-term this might have seemed to some to have been the foolish route to go. My opinion is it will prove out to have been a brilliant strategy.

My thoughts exactly.

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[/I]and with the Indian tribes;

And that my friend, is why Tesla will never be banned in the continent. You'll see Tesla stores like casinos in the tribe areas! You'll just have to go to Mukleshoot Tesla and Tulalip Tesla to get your car.

 

[bonnie]

Inevitably, Tesla will be selling in NJ.

please share with me when you believe that this will happen, because short of the courts getting involved or the legislature changing the statutes Tesla cannot sell cars in NJ

"Inevitably" doesn't imply a date. If you got that from my post, then I must not have been clear enough. It's like electric cars. Inevitably, electric cars will be accepted as a viable form of transportation by the general public. (I don't know what day that is, but I believe that it is inevitable.) Or another example: It is inevitable that we all will die. It doesn't mean we are dead today. It means it is sure to happen.

Regarding NJ, I think it's highly likely that courts and/or legislatures at either state or national level will become involved. I think it's also likely that local legislators, seeing the sentiment of their constituents, will be smart to introduce the bill and show themselves as 'standing up for the people, against business interests'.

This may help in understanding what I meant to convey:

 

[apvbguy]

US Constitution, Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3 (Commerce Clause):

The Congress shall have power...
To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;

I've been working on this issue with my US Senator Dick Durbin who is the majority whip. He may get together with others regarding possible legislation. Durbin is the one who first encouraged our other senator from Illinois to run for president. Obama always responded personally to my emails when he was in the senate. Now I'm using Durbin as an intermediary.

you must be confused, this is the 10th amendment;
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

what this means, in a layman's interpretation is that as long as the decision by the NJ MVC does not impact on trade amongst the states, then the federales have NO JURISDICTION to intercede in the matter.
I'll refrain from politics, except for saying your friends in high places have zero ability to affect this as things stand today.

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Couldn't one federal case could ban all direct sales if it didn't go their way? Their only option at that point would be traditional dealership model.

what federal case is there right now???

 

[SteveG3]

When Elon Musk spoke about this at Tesla Live, he got emotional and suggested that if Tesla wins this battle it will be ultimately from the efforts of the American people.

so as suggested in various points posted here recently, I think the strategy may largely be, during this time of supply constraint, continue to go state to state, win or lose, public outrage builds, which builds the persuasiveness of Tesla's case, whether with state or federal institutions, legislative or judicial.

in other words, a poll in nj.com today with 82% pro-Tesla voting may well be a harbinger of a national poll in USA Today two years from now with 90+% pro-Tesla. I suspect 90+% public outrage suffices to trump lobbying.

 

[Curt Renz]

you must be confused, this is the 10th amendment;
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

what this means, in a layman's interpretation is that as long as the decision by the NJ MVC does not impact on trade amongst the states, then the federales have NO JURISDICTION to intercede in the matter.
I'll refrain from politics, except for saying your friends in high places have zero ability to affect this as things stand today.

The US Constitution's Commerce Clause does delegate these matters to the US Congress. The NJ MVC is interfering with the manner in which commerce is conducted between a California manufacturer and New Jersey consumers.

 

[dsm363]

you must be confused, this is the 10th amendment;
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

what this means, in a layman's interpretation is that as long as the decision by the NJ MVC does not impact on trade amongst the states, then the federales have NO JURISDICTION to intercede in the matter.
I'll refrain from politics, except for saying your friends in high places have zero ability to affect this as things stand today.

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what federal case is there right now???

Please. This was brought up as an example of why it might be risky for Tesla to make it a federal case right now. We both know there isn't a federal case at the moment.

 

[apvbguy]

When Elon Musk spoke about this at Tesla Live, he got emotional and suggested that if Tesla wins this battle it will be ultimately from the efforts of the American people.

so as suggested in various points posted here recently, I think the strategy may largely be, during this time of supply constraint, continue to go state to state, win or lose, public outrage builds, which builds the persuasiveness of Tesla's case, whether with state or federal institutions, legislative or judicial.

in other words, a poll in nj.com today with 82% pro-Tesla voting may well be a harbinger of a national poll in USA Today two years from now with 90+% pro-Tesla. I suspect 90+% public outrage suffices to trump lobbying.

like I noted many pages ago, you are probably correct, but it will be a long, tedious and costly undertaking. while the public detests the concept of lobbying the guys who have the power to alter the way business is conducted seem to not be very inclined to end how the lobbyists do their thing.

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The US Constitution's Commerce Clause does delegate these matters to the US Congress. The NJ MVC is interfering with the manner in which commerce is conducted between a California manufacturer and New Jersey consumers.

that has yet to be stated by any one and it has to be proven to be true.
all NJ has stated is that the CA manufacturer cannot sell their product directly to the public.
this is the crux of the matter, if tesla wants to get involved with trying to call this a restraint of trade they can but in order to get to the supremes there are a lot of steps that need to be followed