Tesla tech is great, but other companies are starting to push

[whitex]

@whitex I feel your pain on the 691hp issue. Fortunately and thanks to this forum I got suspicious just in time, did the math realised it was BS and went for 85D instead. You will find on that thread that I called out Tesla on that issue as I will any company the misrepresents its postion of products.

I do think there is a world of differnence though to VAG, one of the largest automotive companies in the world, and the sheer magnitude of their corruption through multiple levels of managemnt, the damage to the atmosphere which is still ongoing and literally to peoples lives.

Like you I also dislike Tesla/Elon's excessive claims about the capabilities of AP, heck mine has even reverted to randomly trying to dive down left hand turns it sees, so L4/5 FSD remains a distant future goal and not with the current hardware but no way does this match VAGs corporate mafeasance and I just treat claims as ambitions and no more.
Whilst it in no way affects the magnitude of the crime, remember that you guys in the US got $2B remedy, in the UK we got nothing despite the fact we have vastly more VAG diesels on the road than you had in the whole of the US. I have to sit in traffic with these (and other) manufacturers diesel belching soot at me every single day. Even more gallign to me is that I used to drive some of their diesels and even complained at them about their economy claims which even I could see were flat out false - a hint at the time perhaps of the wider issue?
Further the ones that VAG have supposedly modified are apparently running even worse and showing a noticeable drop in power. Go figure.

Tesla claims of 681hp was not just ambitions. They knew the car would have needed a 50% power boost to reach those numbers, but they sat silently on it until P85D was out of production (while JB tried to bamboozle everyone how electric horses are different). It seems VW had a similar problem, they just happen to have the option to give people the advertised power at a cost of increased emissions. Had Tesla had such an option, maybe they would have taken it too, we'll never know. Of course WV had much bigger impact because they sell many more cars than Tesla.

PS) If you believe Elon, at least you can breathe clear of any VW emissions in your bio-hazard mode equipped Tesla. Funny thing, when I watched the live reveal of the bio-hazard mode Elon actually joked "in case you're stuck in traffic behind a VW diesel" - apparently that line was edited out from the video Tesla later released.

 

[cookie99]

Wow, a fancy 3D stitched picture of your car in a parking lot. That sounds like something that will be useful exactly once, showing it off to somebody right after you get the car and right before you promptly forget it even exists.

As for the interior, no thanks. Show me a 2012 BMW interior that looks as good as a 2012 Model S interior looks today. They age terribly.

i'll do you one better.. i got a 2010 that seemed to age better than the model S... =/

 

[thegruf]

@whitex

Number or deaths due to deceitful 691hp claim for P85D = 0
Number of deaths due to excess diesel emissions = 38,000
- ref artcile below

Impacts and mitigation of excess diesel-related NO_<i>x</i> emissions in 11 major vehicle markets

"These excess emissions (totalling 4.6 million tons) are associated with about 38,000 PM2.5- and ozone-related premature deaths globally in 2015, including about 10 per cent of all ozone-related premature deaths in the 28 European Union member states."

... and you really want to keep comparing Tesla occasional (and regrettable) stupidity with VW/Audi/Porsche Global Corporate considered, calculated, wilfull and structural malfeasance?

I say again Tesla did wrong, but VAG were orders of magnitude different in their behaviour, and I am disgusted every day at their lack of punishment by worldwide authorities, the US being the only exception of note, and even then they are using their fine to their advantage with EV infrastructure.

 

[whitex]

@whitex

Number or deaths due to deceitful 691hp claim for P85D = 0
Number of deaths due to excess diesel emissions = 38,000
- ref artcile below

Impacts and mitigation of excess diesel-related NO_<i>x</i> emissions in 11 major vehicle markets

"These excess emissions (totalling 4.6 million tons) are associated with about 38,000 PM2.5- and ozone-related premature deaths globally in 2015, including about 10 per cent of all ozone-related premature deaths in the 28 European Union member states."

... and you really want to keep comparing Tesla occasional (and regrettable) stupidity with VW/Audi/Porsche Global Corporate considered, calculated, wilfull and structural malfeasance?

I say again Tesla did wrong, but VAG were orders of magnitude different in their behaviour, and I am disgusted every day at their lack of punishment by worldwide authorities, the US being the only exception of note, and even then they are using their fine to their advantage with EV infrastructure.

The article you linked requires payment to read. I'm not sure how to interpret 38,000 PM2.5 (is it pars per million ^-2.5?) nor can I see how that was calculated, or what was used for the proof of causation, or what is that damage per vehicle sold, but I'll grant you, VW cheating had a large impact, and was definitely wrong. Personally I think some high level people who knew at VW should be held liable. I wouldn't buy their diesels, but would buy their EV if it's the best available option at the time.

 

[dmode]

I am genuinely curious what the Tesla software team is focused on (and perhaps how big this team is). Is it entirely dedicated to Autopilot and FSD ? I mean, there are so many gimmicky low hanging features (like the 3D view) that can delivered in a few months, not sure why Tesla just doesn't thrown in a few low effort but high impact gimmicky features in each of their releases. I used to do that as a Product Manager in my previous company. It will always get press and get kudos from customers. Small things they can throw in (just from the top of my head) - integration with audible, spotify, any other music streaming app, expanded voice commands (change climate, change settings, change autopilot speed etc), useless FB/Twitter integration, live surround camera views while parking or changing lanes, blind spot chimes, text message readout etc. etc. Tesla can roll these things out relatively quickly, while any minor updates to Autopilot and FSD takes months and years.

Just give us the low hanging fruits.

 

[thegruf]

@whitex - good discussion. Happy to respect your view,
Although I'm not one for bearing grudges I would take some convincing to buy a VAG vehicle again as I am not clear that their corporate mentality has changed, a few token heads rolled maybe but not the culture. fortunately there will soon be a wider choice of EVs, but TEsla in spite of their faux pas have earned a degree of respect and loyalty from me for the risks they have taken to get to where they are today.
Mind you much more claptrap from Elon on twitter could erase that loyalty very quickly indeed.

PM2.5 are 2.5micron particles btw; so this is referring to diesel soot essentially (also increasingly petrols with direct injection) and brake dust too contains PM2.5s. There is evidence that the combination of PM2.5s and NOx is particularly difficult for the respiratory system, added to which further evidence is now suggesting a link between metallic particles from combustion/catalytic convertors may be significant in degenerative brain disease. All good reason to push BEVs.

 

[thegruf]

I am genuinely curious what the Tesla software team is focused on (and perhaps how big this team is). Is it entirely dedicated to Autopilot and FSD ? I mean, there are so many gimmicky low hanging features (like the 3D view) that can delivered in a few months, not sure why Tesla just doesn't thrown in a few low effort but high impact gimmicky features in each of their releases. I used to do that as a Product Manager in my previous company. It will always get press and get kudos from customers. Small things they can throw in (just from the top of my head) - integration with audible, spotify, any other music streaming app, expanded voice commands (change climate, change settings, change autopilot speed etc), useless FB/Twitter integration, live surround camera views while parking or changing lanes, blind spot chimes, text message readout etc. etc. Tesla can roll these things out relatively quickly, while any minor updates to Autopilot and FSD takes months and years.

Just give us the low hanging fruits.

I agree.

I think we can easily underestimate just how demanding it has been for Tesla to release the Model 3.
Clearly AP2 has been a total mare to date, and seems to have been subjected to a number of re-writes.

Another factor of course is the competition have been nowhere so that doesnt pressure Tesla too hard either.

But sure, with V9 coming and some of the major projects under control lets all hope for some new toys.

 

[whitex]

@whitex - good discussion. Happy to respect your view,
Although I'm not one for bearing grudges I would take some convincing to buy a VAG vehicle again as I am not clear that their corporate mentality has changed, a few token heads rolled maybe but not the culture. fortunately there will soon be a wider choice of EVs, but TEsla in spite of their faux pas have earned a degree of respect and loyalty from me for the risks they have taken to get to where they are today.
Mind you much more claptrap from Elon on twitter could erase that loyalty very quickly indeed.

PM2.5 are 2.5micron particles btw; so this is referring to diesel soot essentially (also increasingly petrols with direct injection) and brake dust too contains PM2.5s. There is evidence that the combination of PM2.5s and NOx is particularly difficult for the respiratory system, added to which further evidence is now suggesting a link between metallic particles from combustion/catalytic convertors may be significant in degenerative brain disease. All good reason to push BEVs.

I fully respect people's choices, and by no means am I trying to convince you to buy a VAG car. I was just stating that I would buy the Taycan or other EV products from them if they prove to be of value to me. I would also buy a Tesla for the same reason, even though I feel I was completely mislead with the P85D (I didn't even mention here that the 85KWh battery is actually only 81KWh battery with 77KWh usable) - that made me lose all trust into anything promised by Elon. So today, I look only at what is available and verifiable on delivery day. So far Tesla has been my top choice for cars, but then again it hasn't been much of a horse race yet.

PS> At least on the Taycan, I can be reasonably sure they won't be cheating on the emissions tests.

 

[born2run]

On another note but related...it isn’t just the raw tech it’s the experience. Tesla has really nailed that. I have been in, driven and experienced a lot of Mercedes, BMW’s and Audi’s - none of them have the in vehicle experience tesla does. The map experince alone is so much better than these ridiculous antiquated nav systems that don’t use google and you have to scroll a wheel...

Again - it isn’t just the raw horsepower (which is also awesome) it is the end to end experience. Like jobs - Elon also seems to care about this and has put a premium on it such that our overall driving experience far exceeds anything else on the market today.

 

[HX_Guy]

I agree on the experience. My wife has a fully loaded 2017 Mercedes E300...interior is gorgeous, has the dual 12” screens, the massaging seats with active side bolsters, the surround view (and even selectable cameras so you can see the font camera view or side camera view on their own), even sprays perfume through the AC vents from a fancy looking perfume bottle in the glove box. Its really nice to drive, but whenever my wife dries my car, she still gushes about how it feels. Its something special still, even if its less polished and rattles 10X more than the Mercedes.

Now I guess imagine if Tesla could have their driving experience, but also add in some “cool” features. *Mind blown*

 

[whitex]

On another note but related...it isn’t just the raw tech it’s the experience. Tesla has really nailed that. I have been in, driven and experienced a lot of Mercedes, BMW’s and Audi’s - none of them have the in vehicle experience tesla does. The map experince alone is so much better than these ridiculous antiquated nav systems that don’t use google and you have to scroll a wheel...

Again - it isn’t just the raw horsepower (which is also awesome) it is the end to end experience. Like jobs - Elon also seems to care about this and has put a premium on it such that our overall driving experience far exceeds anything else on the market today.

Have you been in a latest Audi? As for experience, the old MCU on my 2015 is starting to feel like my ancient iPad, still works but it's old and slow. It's been getting slower since I got it (or I could say since 2013 when I got my first one, same MCU), with occasional updates that sped up a little, but never to what it was back in 2013. I can turn on headlights way faster and more conveniently in an 8 year old Lexus than in a 3 year old Tesla. The new MCU that my wife has is better (faster, like getting a new cell phone), but the lack of physical controls and having take your eyes off the road to navigate through multiple menus to do things like turn headlights on or raise/lower the suspension does not in any way beat a simple physical switch which can be used with muscle memory and doesn't feel like an old cell phone after 3 years. What the Tesla cars have that wows people who don't drive it regularly is the very large screen - that's it. Once you get over that wow factor, you realize the experience isn't the greatest. Put an ICE engine in the a Model S/X/3 and you wouldn't be able to sell a whole lot of them based on the experience, looks, or whatever. What sells Tesla is the amazing drivetrain, and a damn oversized cell phone to control everything (ironic because its actual cell phone integration is from last century).

 

[born2run]

Have you been in a latest Audi? As for experience, the old MCU on my 2015 is starting to feel like my ancient iPad, still works but it's old and slow. It's been getting slower since I got it (or I could say since 2013 when I got my first one, same MCU), with occasional updates that sped up a little, but never to what it was back in 2013. I can turn on headlights way faster and more conveniently in an 8 year old Lexus than in a 3 year old Tesla. The new MCU that my wife has is better (faster, like getting a new cell phone), but the lack of physical controls and having take your eyes off the road to navigate through multiple menus to do things like turn headlights on or raise/lower the suspension does not in any way beat a simple physical switch which can be used with muscle memory and doesn't feel like an old cell phone after 3 years. What the Tesla cars have that wows people who don't drive it regularly is the very large screen - that's it. Once you get over that wow factor, you realize the experience isn't the greatest. Put an ICE engine in the a Model S/X/3 and you wouldn't be able to sell a whole lot of them based on the experience, looks, or whatever. What sells Tesla is the amazing drivetrain, and a damn oversized cell phone to control everything (ironic because its actual cell phone integration is from last century).

I disagree.

 

[whitex]

I disagree.

No problem. You thinking that Model S/X/3 would be selling just as much because of the experience even if they had an ICE engine probably puts you in the minority, but doesn't mean you're wrong. Of course will not know until the other manufacturers get fast and smooth EV drivetrains, at which point the experience will be the only differentiator so sales will tell us whether you are right about the experience appeal to the masses.

 

[sauce]

My thoughts are only: You won't get me in the door of any other long range EV maker until they have banks of maintained fast chargers comparable to Tesla's supercharger network. Until then, while I like the things you mention, and some I would really want, none of them come even close to outweighing the advantage Tesla's supercharger network gives us. So even with everything you mention, if it comes in a vehicle that I have to reply on public chargers to go anywhere outside of my home town, it's basically a useless vehicle to me since I have the Tesla option. And I've done travelling before there was one supercharger in Canada and relying on public chargers to get you anywhere is not something I will ever go through again. So I have no interest in it at all, and that's a shame because we need real competition for Tesla - but for me it's only real competition when we compare apples to apples and not to oranges, which everything else is until they have a comparable fast charging network, which likely won't be anytime soon.

It took reading up to page 5 to get to that answer. I couldn't agree more with @Canuck.

I though the Supercharging network paired with Tesla's support of our vehicles both software and warranty-wise were the main selling point for most people.

Yet I'm kind of puzzled by the rather superfluous demands for mostly 2nd, 3rd and 4th rate tech niceties and gimmicks (except for 360 camera view). It is all nice but somewhat to strongly beside the point of why we bought the car. How some have come to forget this is beyond me.

In this sense, Tesla is still ahead by 10 years of any other manufacturer. Until anyone else implements a worthy charging network, Tesla is in no danger of losing my business and the vast majority of you folks as well and you all know it full well.

 

[whitex]

It took reading up to page 5 to get to that answer. I couldn't agree more with @Canuck.

I though the Supercharging network paired with Tesla's support of our vehicles both software and warranty-wise were the main selling point for most people.

Yet I'm kind of puzzled by the rather superfluous demands for mostly 2nd, 3rd and 4th rate tech niceties and gimmicks (except for 360 camera view). It is all nice but somewhat to strongly beside the point of why we bought the car. How some have come to forget this is beyond me.

In this sense, Tesla is still ahead by 10 years of any other manufacturer. Until anyone else implements a worthy charging network, Tesla is in no danger of losing my business and the vast majority of you folks as well and you all know it full well.

First, the other guys are building up a charging network (see my post earlier this thread) - well funded and planned to be almost par with current Tesla (except supports 350KW charging) by mid-2019, which is when the other guys' EV's like Taycan are scheduled to start selling.

Second, people bought Tesla's when the supercharger network was in its infancy with much less public chargers availability than today, so why wouldn't people buy other guys' EV's today? I got my first original Model S60 in 2013 and sold it two years later without it seeing a single supercharger as there really wasn't any around where I live (supercharging was enabled on it, for ChaDeMo, though the adapter was so delayed it came just as I was selling the car, so the new owner was the first to make use of the $2,000 option). It didn't stop me from buying a second Tesla. My very first supercharger visit was in 2016, on my second Model S already.

 

[sauce]

@whitex, that makes you someone special: an early adopter, and without particular need for Superchargers.

As for implementation of VAG group's 350kW network, I have no doubt it will happen, and when it does, I'm pretty sure it'll be exciting to consider the Taycan. That being said, let's revisit this thread next year, see where they're at with the rollout of their 350kW charger network.

If, by any chance they miraculously develop their network to the point where it rivals Tesla's, that doesn't necessarily make Tesla's obsolete, especially that Porsche caters to a niche market, while with the 3, Tesla's main market ground will remain unrivaled.

 

[whitex]

@whitex, that makes you someone special: an early adopter, and without particular need for Superchargers.

As for implementation of VAG group's 350kW network, I have no doubt it will happen, and when it does, I'm pretty sure it'll be exciting to consider the Taycan. That being said, let's revisit this thread next year, see where they're at with the rollout of their 350kW charger network.

If, by any chance they miraculously develop their network to the point where it rivals Tesla's, that doesn't necessarily make Tesla's obsolete, especially that Porsche caters to a niche market, while with the 3, Tesla's main market ground will remain unrivaled.

You should have been here in the early days. If you suggested that Teslas are useless and only for early adopters until supercharger network is in place, you would have gotten flames into oblivion.

As for competition superchargers, I don't think anyone suggested that something like EA charging network will make Tesla's obsolete, only that it will take away Tesla's big advantage, so they will need to compete on just the cars alone. Note btw that while spearheaded by VW, there are other automakers which are funding EA, and it uses non-proprietary standards so they will all be able to share.

 

[thegruf]

I was going to give this amusing debate a rest, but oh dear @whitex - you still expecting 350KW charging in your Tincan?

suggest a read up of the specs

One thing at a time though

... people bought Tesla's when the supercharger network was in its infancy with much less public chargers availability than today, so why wouldn't people buy other guys' EV's today? ...

why would they now buy without an existing network - when Tesla already have in place a proven Supercharger network when the competition don't yet. The world has moved on and will continue to do so, but for now Tesla has a considerable lead, whilst other live off vaporware and promises.

However, why are Electrify America (funded by VW's fine no less) allowed to install charging points that are not compatible with the presently biggest selling EVs in the US, aka their main rival Tesla and curiously compatible with upcoming VW cars. The point of a penalty is to punish a company not to force it to jump up the ladder at the expense of local competition. Somebody really lost the plot on this and allowed VW to use their fine to their own cometitive advantage.Nuts.

So, back to your magical 350KW.

the CCS standard has max 350A at max 1000V = 350KW
(interestingly the ABB chargers top at at 920V - so there's a cop out from the off)

Porsche are stating an 800V battery pack.
Oops, that 20% off max volts so you're down to 280KW already.

But then you cannot charge at max current at max pack voltage (ie when the pack is full), so maybe 90% of pack voltage in that case.
Now you're down to 250KW at absolute best. Likely more like 200-220KW max and tapered. Maybe better than Tesla, maybe not, maybe just a trade off on pack life and a risk taken on depreciation

Reality will be to see these Tincans charged from empty to full and any caveats that Porsche throw in about degradation with excessive fast charging and/or strategies to limit charging. My guess might save you 10 minutes on a 200 mile charge, useful possibly but not the game changer VAG Porsche would have the gullible believe. Personally I'd rather have another latte.

Not quite so special after all, but then if you will get sucked in by VAG Porsche BS

 

[electracity]

A Tesla with a 400 mile range using current superchargers may be competitive with a Taycan with a 250 mile range and access to true 350kw chargers. Competitive here being minutes per year spent at public charging stations.

I think this is Tesla's competitive position. Evolutionary improvements in real charge rates while offering very high range EVs for people who find such capability useful. I wouldn't be surprised if newer superchargers are capable of more than 145kw.

At the end of the day the range of the EV and its average charge rate when under 80% is what matters. I agree with the post above that the Taycan will look better in specs than in the real world.

But I also think that the Taycan will be a great car.

 

[whitex]

why would they now buy without an existing network - when Tesla already have in place a proven Supercharger network when the competition don't yet.

Because there is a large group of people who get by without the supercharger. If they got by and still raved about Tesla when the superchargers were but a dream, they can do it again if they get a car that they like more.

However, why are Electrify America (funded by VW's fine no less) allowed to install charging points that are not compatible with the presently biggest selling EVs in the US, aka their main rival Tesla and curiously compatible with upcoming VW cars. The point of a penalty is to punish a company not to force it to jump up the ladder at the expense of local competition. Somebody really lost the plot on this and allowed VW to use their fine to their own cometitive advantage.Nuts.

I like conspiracy theories as much as the next guy, but the simple answer is that they chose to use open standards rather than developing their own. Yes, Tesla was at a disadvantage because there was no open standards >50KW at the time, but it is what it is. EA is building an open network and that's why multiple manufacturers are contributing. Power of collaboration.

the CCS standard has max 350A at max 1000V = 350KW
(interestingly the ABB chargers top at at 920V - so there's a cop out from the off)

Porsche are stating an 800V battery pack.
Oops, that 20% off max volts so you're down to 280KW already.

But then you cannot charge at max current at max pack voltage (ie when the pack is full), so maybe 90% of pack voltage in that case.
Now you're down to 250KW at absolute best. Likely more like 200-220KW max and tapered. Maybe better than Tesla, maybe not, maybe just a trade off on pack life and a risk taken on depreciation

You are confusing a few things:

1. The power going out is not the power going into the batteries. There are loses. When Tesla supercharger is putting out 120KW, there is no 120KW going into the battery.
2. When charging at 350KW at 1000V at the battery, that's a large of current. The resistance of wiring causes a fairly large voltage drop, hence the output of the charger has to be higher. When putting out 350KW the current at 1000V would have to be 350A. A 0.57Ohm wiring resistance would drop the voltage at the battery to 800V. (google Ohm's Law for more info)
3. 350KW is like Tesla 120KW. It's the highest charging rate the charger can put out. So you'll charge at 350KW about as often as Teslas charge at 120KW. If your argument about a latte holds, ChaDeMo would be sufficient for you since above 60% or so you're barely going 50KW at superchargers, so just have another latte to compensate for getting to 60% a little slower.

You are right that the actual proof will be in when the car comes out. Will it charge faster than Tesla, by how much? Will it be able to sustain performance longer without overheating (I don't track my Tesla, yet I've hit the perf limits when going through some mountainous terrain). To be honest, I don't even care if it hits 350KW, half would do just fine. 99.9% of my charging happens at home at 20KW or less. When it comes out, I will compare the Porsche to Tesla at that time (sans any Elon "coming soon" promises), and get the car I like better.