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Tesla tech is great, but other companies are starting to push

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Other manufacturers enjoy the benefits of long established manufacturing facilties, supply chains, dealer networks and often deeper pockets than Tesla. It is clear that they have been reacting to Tesla's success and there is already some competition for Tesla. However, for me, Tesla currently has one huge advantage: the Tesla Supercharger network. Whenever heading on a journey outside my local area, I don't worry about which cables are in the car or whether I need to join particular regional charging networks - I know I can just use Superchargers along the way. I just get in the car, tell the navigator where I am going and drive.
 
Tesla currently has one huge advantage: the Tesla Supercharger network.
I think we are all in agreement on this. The big question is, how long will that one huge advantage hold? VW and their partners are investing billions just in the US (not a hyperbole, $2B to be spent, part of VW dieselgate settlement) in installing a supercharger network capable of even faster charging (350KW) than current Tesla superchargers (120KW). Possibly Tesla Supercharger v3 will be faster, but that would be a whole new rollout.

This is not some pie in the sky talk from carmakers. This is already funded and rolling out ($2B is no chump-change). Here is their current rollout status. (coming soon are in the process of construction, planned site I think is stage 1 to be completed by mid-2019, but not 100% sure):
ElectrifyAmericaRollout.png



Some sources:
VW vows to build massive electric car charging network across US
Welcome to Electrify America | Commitment
Welcome to Electrify America | Locations
 
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I couldn't disagree more... FSD is the future of transportation and whoever can get there first will have a huge market advantage. Sure, some people "want" to drive but most of us would rather kick back and take a nap...

Not all of the world is the same.
"Some" people is quite a bold statement. What's your point of reference? My evidence is as anecdotal as yours, but no one I know is interested in self-driving cars, other than when stuck in traffic jams. I have seen polls about the subject and again, the vast majority of people who were asked about it stated that FSD was either of no or very little interest to them.
So to say it would be a "huge market advantage" is quite an exaggeration. And even if it were, all automakers are pursuing the subject. From what I have seen of prototypes by BMW, Audi, Merc, Volvo, Jaguar, etc. nothing Tesla currently offers seems any more impressive.
 
I... installing a supercharger network capable of even faster charging (350KW) than current Tesla superchargers (120KW). Possibly Tesla Supercharger v3 will be faster ...

I get so tired of reading this crap about 350KW being faster.

It is irrelevant to todays technology and is nothing more than a marketing coup for VAG that too many people who should know better are falling for. This is exactly like Tesla saying the P85D had 691hp, which was also BS.

No currently availble EV battery technology can take 350KW (into a 100KWH battery) without risking degradation. If if could - do you really believe that Tesla would not already be there?

That said there is nothing wrong with future proofing and maybe at some point in the future with LTO or supercaps or the like but for now it has no relevance other than perhaps one charger can charge 2 or 3 cars at the same time.
 
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I feel everyone else is 4-6 years behind Tesla.

I know a new crop of EVs are coming out but I have a feeling Tesla has something very special planned for the Model S on the horizon. Then everyone will again be 4-6 years behind Tesla.

Couldn't disagree more.
Unless Tesla have a brand-new battery technology hidden in the Gigafactory that no one knows about yet, nothing they offer is 4-6 years ahead of the competition. Hell, I ordered an e-Golf out of frustration because my Model 3 delivery estimate has by now been pushed back four times, to over one and a half years later than it was initially. But tell you what, regardless of the timeframe, the e-Golf is superior to even a Model S in so many ways that matter to me. Sure, the Model S (and 3) has more range, sure it is faster. But that is about it. Nothing else that matters is better. Build quality, features, creature comforts, the 44K Euro e-Golf I ordered blows the 100K Euro Model S out of the sky. It even has more room in the backseats than the Model S!

I am certain that the Model 3 will be better in many aspects than a Model S, but as long as Tesla still can't deliver any of them, there is no advantage over legacy automakers. At least I can get an e-Golf, i3, Ioniq, i-Pace now.
A Model 3 is no different than a Porsche Taycan. As far as we in Europe are concerned both don't exist yet. And both will be available from about mid 2019 onwards.

By the way, I am already excited about the first comparison tests between the Taycan and the Model S, once the former becomes available.
If those tests conclude that the Model S even then is 4-6 years ahead, I will draw my hat and concede that I was wrong, but somehow I have my doubts...
 
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I get so tired of reading this crap about 350KW being faster.

It is irrelevant to todays technology and is nothing more than a marketing coup for VAG that too many people who should know better are falling for. This is exactly like Tesla saying the P85D had 691hp, which was also BS.

No currently availble EV battery technology can take 350KW (into a 100KWH battery) without risking degradation. If if could - do you really believe that Tesla would not already be there?

That said there is nothing wrong with future proofing and maybe at some point in the future with LTO or supercaps or the like but for now it has no relevance other than perhaps one charger can charge 2 or 3 cars at the same time.
  1. Even if the speed advantage is not usable at fist, near-par with today's Tesla supercharger network loses Tesla the one big advantage they have
  2. The Taycan is speced out to charge >120KW (also 800V), so there should be at least one car which can use it. For a long time, Model S was the one and only car that could charge at 90KW+, so that Model S drivers could boast it over Leaf drivers. Porsche drivers will be able to boast over Model S/X/3 drivers in a similar fashion.
 
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Uh, my wife’s 2012 335i interior is holding up better than my 2016 MS and it has 10k more miles on it. I think Tesla really ought to improve material quality a bit.

The interior of Ford trucks are amazing. I had an Expedition that I kept 6 years, over 100K miles, and used for kids and many home projects. The interior was essentially unchanged from new when I sold that SUV.

More expensive and durable fabric is not enough to improve interiors. The seating apparently must be properly designed to support that fabric.

It's odd to me that Musk is sometimes proud about aspects of Tesla that are actually just "good enough". Tesla doing seats in house is simply a failure of establishing a relationship with a skilled subcontractor.

But I do think that tesla's position of using simple interiors will continue to be a good choice. I don't see any reason that Tesla can't continue to improve.
 
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I think we are all in agreement on this. The big question is, how long will that one huge advantage hold? VW and their partners are investing billions just in the US (not a hyperbole, $2B to be spent, part of VW dieselgate settlement) in installing a supercharger network capable of even faster charging (350KW) than current Tesla superchargers (120KW). Possibly Tesla Supercharger v3 will be faster, but that would be a whole new rollout.

This is not some pie in the sky talk from carmakers. This is already funded and rolling out ($2B is no chump-change). Here is their current rollout status. (coming soon are in the process of construction, planned site I think is stage 1 to be completed by mid-2019, but not 100% sure):
View attachment 316310


Some sources:
VW vows to build massive electric car charging network across US
Welcome to Electrify America | Commitment
Welcome to Electrify America | Locations

I don't believe the Electrify America charging network will be in the same class as Tesla's Superchargers. There will likely be fewer chargers per location, fewer locations, and probably more down time. Superchargers are core to Tesla's business. How well will the Electrify America chargers be managed? I expect problems.

I don't think the luxury end of EV matters much going forward. The price/value of Rav4, Camry, Civic etc is much higher and more of a problem for Tesla compared to a BMW M5. BMW is a niche company. Tesla probably will get to BMWs size, and they will still be a niche company.

IMO the end of the beginning of the EV revolution is from about now to about 2023. The majors are mostly positioned to build tens of thousands of units per year and not worry too much about travel chargers. That will probably work well for Tesla and also the majors.
 
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I don't think the luxury end of EV matters much going forward. The price/value of Rav4, Camry, Civic etc is much higher and more of a problem for Tesla compared to a BMW M5. BMW is a niche company. Tesla probably will get to BMWs size, and they will still be a niche company.

I couldnt disagree more. One of the primary reasons Tesla has enjoyed the success it has is that it proves that the electric car platform can have performance as good or better than the ICE platform. Insofar that is why many car enthusiasts migrated to the tesla platform. Personally the "carbon footprint" of my vehicle has ZERO impact on my decision to purchase a tesla. Its performance, luxury, capability, and to an extent, cost. Had Tesla not checked every box, I would have turned a cheek and continued to consider other luxury brands S-Class, 7-Series, A8, etc. Had Tesla failed in achieving the performance/luxury thresholds needed to capture buyers in this market segment, it would have been relegated to the success of the Volt, Insight, and other eco-commuters who have popularity only in metro areas along the coasts.

What has caused me to take pause is the build quality (or lack therof) with Tesla. The leather is of poor quality and wears terribly. The interior doesnt have the luxury feel of a comparably priced BMW, Audi, or MBZ. BMW and Audi have done well embracing similar design elements of modern simplicity, but have far suprassed Tesla in terms of achieving a sense of elegance and quality. Mercedes Benz and BMW are not "niche" manufacturers and do quite well catering towards the auto buyer who can spend north of $40K USD. Being that Tesla currently competes in this market segment, it would be wise for them to understand & address the strengths of competitors, and the company's current weaknesses rather than to reinvent themselves to become a force against the likes of Toyota, Honda and GM.
 
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Wow, lots of future predictions here which explains the long thread. With future predictions, it's impossible to be wrong or right. I'll believe all these glorious claims of the competition releasing legitimate electric cars and charging infrastructure when it actually happens. In the meantime, I'm happily suffering in my poorly appointed Model S (lol) and enjoying the mature supercharger network. So will ~ 450k waiting Tesla customers.
 
I couldnt disagree more. One of the primary reasons Tesla has enjoyed the success it has is that it proves that the electric car platform can have performance as good or better than the ICE platform. Insofar that is why many car enthusiasts migrated to the tesla platform. Personally the "carbon footprint" of my vehicle has ZERO impact on my decision to purchase a tesla. Its performance, luxury, capability, and to an extent, cost. Had Tesla not checked every box, I would have turned a cheek and continued to consider other luxury brands S-Class, 7-Series, A8, etc. Had Tesla failed in achieving the performance/luxury thresholds needed to capture buyers in this market segment, it would have been relegated to the success of the Volt, Insight, and other eco-commuters who have popularity only in metro areas along the coasts.

What has caused me to take pause is the build quality (or lack therof) with Tesla. The leather is of poor quality and wears terribly. The interior doesnt have the luxury feel of a comparably priced BMW, Audi, or MBZ. BMW and Audi have done well embracing similar design elements of modern simplicity, but have far suprassed Tesla in terms of achieving a sense of elegance and quality. Mercedes Benz and BMW are not "niche" manufacturers and do quite well catering towards the auto buyer who can spend north of $40K USD. Being that Tesla currently competes in this market segment, it would be wise for them to understand & address the strengths of competitors, and the company's current weaknesses rather than to reinvent themselves to become a force against the likes of Toyota, Honda and GM.

You are looking at the past, I am looking at the future. Of course Tesla hit a home run with the upscale buyer of the new, new thing.

The typical car buyer can be observed by simply driving down the road and looking at that the vast sea of cars that go unnoticed. In the context of this thread, my point is the the vast majority of those buyers are not interested in secondary car tech. They are interested in the utility of owning a car. The interests and desires of Maserati owners are entirely unimportant on the 100 million per year new vehicle market.

In 2025 the $25K EV Honda Accord will outperform today's ICE Honda Accord. EVs being better to drive is not a Tesla exclusive feature.
 
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My thoughts are only: You won't get me in the door of any other long range EV maker until they have banks of maintained fast chargers comparable to Tesla's supercharger network. Until then, …
I have similar thoughts. There is no competition on the basics as a whole: range, performance, and palatable long-distance charging. Until that changes, there is no competition -- for this customer. Which means that everything I see in other cars that Tesla doesn't have makes me want them in my next Tesla rather than making me want a non-Tesla. Until the other companies internalize this and compete on the basics, they don't exist to me as a customer.

A (perhaps weak) metaphor: It's like all the other companies are selling desktop or server upgrades, and I'm buying a laptop. Until they put all that cool stuff in a laptop, it's irrelevant to me as a customer.
 
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I think we are all in agreement on this. The big question is, how long will that one huge advantage hold? VW and their partners are investing billions just in the US (not a hyperbole, $2B to be spent, part of VW dieselgate settlement) in installing a supercharger network capable of even faster charging (350KW) than current Tesla superchargers (120KW). Possibly Tesla Supercharger v3 will be faster, but that would be a whole new rollout.

This is not some pie in the sky talk from carmakers. This is already funded and rolling out ($2B is no chump-change). Here is their current rollout status. (coming soon are in the process of construction, planned site I think is stage 1 to be completed by mid-2019, but not 100% sure)

That's interesting - and like you say, could remove Tesla's advantage. I have been surprised that other major manufacturers had not already embarked on their own versions of Tesla's Supercharger network. I know some manufacturers in Europe have chargers at some of their dealers but this seems a bit "hit and miss" and not with the scale or charging speed offered by Tesla.
 
My friend pulls up his car on his phone and can look around it where parked. Very cool!! I do not need that feature, but other than "Autopilot", being electric and turning on my AC remotely, I lose in almost every tech category. A loaded model S is $30k more money, without still much needed, blind spot monitor, top view cameras, HUD and some type of decent phone/media interface. Thoughts...
Absolutely right, not bashing the Tesla product but in an objective comparison Tesla has a ways to go to compete with the other high end offerings. Can't wait to see some of the EV offerings from BMW, Audi & Merc.
 
I don't believe the Electrify America charging network will be in the same class as Tesla's Superchargers. There will likely be fewer chargers per location, fewer locations, and probably more down time. Superchargers are core to Tesla's business. How well will the Electrify America chargers be managed? I expect problems.
And what is the basis of your belief that of the competition being inferior? For example, the existing locations and plans are for same or larger size deployments as superchargers. So you predict that they will go back and rip out a bunch of chargers from existing locations to make you right, and change their plans to make your prediction happen? Unless you have some logic why you think there will be less chargers per location than already built or planned, you are just demonstrating ignorance of the competition, a.k.a. "head in the sand" syndrome.

The majors are mostly positioned to build tens of thousands of units per year and not worry too much about travel chargers.
All the majors are talking charging. Electrify America is getting billions from all the majors. So your prediction about them not worrying about travel chargers has failed already, unless of course you mean they will build all superchargers and ignore what Tesla calls destination chargers, i.e. L2 chargers at hotels and other destination venues. If the latter if your prediction, it's possible, but doesn't matter much. With wide availability of superchargers, especially charging at 350KW, the need to destination chargers diminishes rapidly.
 
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What does your car do today that it didn't do 4 years ago? Do other $100K cars from 5 years ago do that too (and likely have been able to do since they were new)? :)
First Q:Accelerates slightly faster, opens/closes my garage doors, gained some speech recognition capabilities, updated it's internal maps without intervention, gained a new mapping engine, calculates power remaining for trips, does nav routing accounting for SOC & supercharging, has refined GUI interface, gained exit profiles, gained new charging profiles, added valet mode, gained new integration features with the mobile app, etc...

Second Q: Immaterial to my point, but for many of those, no... because routing your 100K BMW through superchargers on a trip wouldn't make much sense, now would it?
 
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VW and their partners are investing billions just in the US (not a hyperbole, $2B to be spent, part of VW dieselgate settlement) in installing a supercharger network capable of even faster charging (350KW) than current Tesla superchargers (120KW). Possibly Tesla Supercharger v3 will be faster, but that would be a whole new rollout.

This is not some pie in the sky talk from carmakers. This is already funded and rolling out ($2B is no chump-change). Here is their current rollout status. (coming soon are in the process of construction, planned site I think is stage 1 to be completed by mid-2019, but not 100% sure):

I believe this to be incorrect. While the portion of the settlement apportioned to electric vehicle programs is $2bil, noto all of that is being "spent installing a supercharger network capable of even faster charging (350KW) than current Tesla superchargers (120KW)".

That money covers Level 2 chargers, some city chargers (of unknown power capability), as well as fast DC chargers. What's more, we've already seen some of the EA chargers that have 50KW plugs, so not faster than a supercharger.

What's more, the program is targeting 240 fast charger locations on highways, but the program is slated to run 10 years.

According to this article the Senior Program Director at the National Association of State Energy Officials (NASEO) feels that, "Powers estimates that Electrify America’s investment will cover only about 10-15% of the infrastructure needed for a fully functioning national EV market."

How well EA executes remains to be seen, IMO.
 
I get so tired of reading this crap about 350KW being faster.

It is irrelevant to todays technology and is nothing more than a marketing coup for VAG that too many people who should know better are falling for. This is exactly like Tesla saying the P85D had 691hp, which was also BS.

No currently availble EV battery technology can take 350KW (into a 100KWH battery) without risking degradation. If if could - do you really believe that Tesla would not already be there?

That said there is nothing wrong with future proofing and maybe at some point in the future with LTO or supercaps or the like but for now it has no relevance other than perhaps one charger can charge 2 or 3 cars at the same time.
Indeed.

What's more, the 350KW chargers are rated at 1000V. Even 800V cars are still on the horizon, I'm not aware of anybody planning 1KV EV's... so given that packs have to taper their current off as their SOC's (and hence voltages) get in the upper ranges, it's not clear that a 350 KW charger will be able to deliver anywhere near it's rated output to any vehicle in the near future, even if it had a 250KW battery.
 
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I believe this to be incorrect. While the portion of the settlement apportioned to electric vehicle programs is $2bil, noto all of that is being "spent installing a supercharger network capable of even faster charging (350KW) than current Tesla superchargers (120KW)".

That money covers Level 2 chargers, some city chargers (of unknown power capability), as well as fast DC chargers. What's more, we've already seen some of the EA chargers that have 50KW plugs, so not faster than a supercharger.

What's more, the program is targeting 240 fast charger locations on highways, but the program is slated to run 10 years.

According to this article the Senior Program Director at the National Association of State Energy Officials (NASEO) feels that, "Powers estimates that Electrify America’s investment will cover only about 10-15% of the infrastructure needed for a fully functioning national EV market."

How well EA executes remains to be seen, IMO.
Read a bit more. EA's budget it $2B, not all from VW. You can buy a bunch of chargers for 2 billion.
 
Indeed.

What's more, the 350KW chargers are rated at 1000V. Even 800V cars are still on the horizon, I'm not aware of anybody planning 1KV EV's... so given that packs have to taper their current off as their SOC's (and hence voltages) get in the upper ranges, it's not clear that a 350 KW charger will be able to deliver anywhere near it's rated output to any vehicle in the near future, even if it had a 250KW battery.
Porsche is saying Taycan will have 800V/350KW charging support. Considering VW is the major investor in EA, I would think they would push for 800V/350KW.