Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
I think there are two primary issues dragging down the stock, not counting the ongoing short wars\TSLAQult thing. Hyperchange and dual mandate: The pace of change the the dual mission of driving the transition to renewable energy fast as possible, and staying marginally profitable to avoid a return to markets for funding and hyperchange, like the store closing and move to online sales, the daily continual improvement in the manufacturing process and car design, changes to supply chain and logistics. Tesla is doing all of these things on an agile basis, while the rest of the industry is using legacy change processes that may take a year or two of planning to make minor logistics or supply changes, or update vehicle components mid-year, or making constant production line changes for processes that would be static for Ford and GM. Change is perceived as risk, until the opportunity is captured in results. Constant change is constant risk and
Regarding the store closures, Elon says Model 3 rollout was the last bet the company move, but it is not the last bet the quarter move he'll make. If it doesn't work out, they will adjust strategy and continue forward. This pace of change is just more than the market can comprehend and so it identifies the change as risk. This is very much like Netflix' move to streaming and I recall Netflix falling about 50% after the change.
Net present value is the risk adjusted value of future earnings, so adding risk subtracts from present value. This is true even if the change will create more future value until the future value add can be understood. This is not the way our mind works perhaps, because we are confident that there is demand for the cars and we believe Elon's stats that 80% of cars are already bought online. I think there will be tweaking of this strategy, but confident they'll have time to adjust before any hit to sales that would result in having to slow production or add significantly to inventory.
Today's tizzy about the Model Y comes on the heels of the 3 rollout just hitting stride and is part of Tesla's long term strategy, but is part of the plan to continue to grow 50-75%, which is not possible by industry standards. We've known and Elon has targeted March reveal since they went pencils down on the design. The fact that the street thinks this is a sign of weakness, when it was announced last year that the announcement would be mid-March is another sign of willful ignorance, or Tesla PR not doing a good enough job of signaling change. I'm not sure if they should do more public relations on the work they are doing to drive efficiencies? The new Grohmann production systems at GF1 were required to do the SR, both technically to build the new pack and financially to build the pack efficiently enough for the 35,000 price. Wall Street may choose ignorance, which seems to be thematic of most Tesla coverage, but Tesla could do 8-K's providing forward guidance to highlight target dates. Phil Lebeau and Tom Randall try to be objective on the media side, the rest of the industry seems to parrot a lot of TSLAQult inspired concerns.

The important question is if there is something Tesla can do to reduce perceived risk by the investment community. Long term this may not matter, but I think the doubt spreading may affect short term sales to some degree and certainly is a significant source of negative press.

  1. Shorts have made 8-K's a big deal. Does Tesla legal need to be more aggressive and use the 8-k to signal upcoming plans? This would give Elon more twitter freedom as well. It could be seen as a negative, giving the competition more insight into future plans, but they have had 8 years advance warning and done very little in response.
  2. More press tours of the GF1, Fremont and Shanghai. Maybe the Willy Wonka thing is better, maintaining mystery about production and Tesla-Magic, but shining light on this new machine that is changing the world is needed? This is a big short theme, that they doubt Tesla has any secret sauce, they don't out innovate, they just cheat somehow. I have not seen any press articles on the new Grohmann line behind the new SR pack.
  3. A more activist legal stand against libel? I'm not sure this is practical and you would not want to do anything that would take Elon's time. Can they hire a social media and legal team to go after scurrilous and false claims on the Internet. Should they dox people working for other companies, if they exist, or lobbyists using twitter to spread false narratives? Regardless of whether shorts are colluding, they are working together to create a negative echo chamber. These channels become insulated over time as groups mute each other out and can become powerful. Twitter and facebook may not be able to solve this themselves, public people like Elon and Tesla will need to learn how to fight these fires. They won't just go away.
  4. Public service advertising. Not products, but marketing the Tesla mission. They don't have to swoon over environmentalism, but can target ads on channels like Pubic Television, sponsoring News Hour. I'd start there and maybe work outwards. Never touting products, but touting Tesla's mission to drive the transition to renewable energy. Make America Green Again. A lot of well informed people don't know how much cleaner an EV is versus ICE.
I am not sure Elon has the enough incentive to protect the share price now that they don't need stock based capital raise. Seriously, Amazon share price had been in the dumps for years despite of their sure footing in online sales and cloud computing, and there are negative reports about employee crying and killing themselves. I don't remember Bezos did much about that.
 
Isn't most of that G&A? i.e. accounting, finance, human resources, facilities administration, public relations, investor relations, data processing, insurance, legal, executive management (From March 21, 2018, when the grant was approved by our stockholders, through December 31, 2018, we recorded stock-based compensation expense of $174.9 million related to the 2018 CEO Performance Award.) severance and litigation expenses, etc.--CEO award is non-cash, but the rest is mostly cash consumption.

Generally the "S" part of "SG&A" is the big one for a major manufacturer. But of course, I don't have the breakdown. I just don't find it at all implausible that the sales cuts would halve SG&A.

The price cut is sales.
 
Nafnlaus on Twitter

upload_2019-3-4_19-19-23.png
 
The same way they are selling new vehicles, online. The downside is that used car buyers traditionally have wanted to inspect the vehicle in person before making a final payment. If Tesla can provide full disclosure as to the vehicle condition while offering a moneyback guarantee, then an in-person inspection should not be necessary. In general, buying used cars online is becoming more common. Personally, I am quite happy with this, as I never cared for the hassle of driving around to multiple car sellers in hopes of landing a good deal. I want to be able to buy virtually everything online!

As I’ve never purchased used before I found the experience unsettling. This is just a viewpoint of how I felt and may not reflect the market. They sent me pictures of a vehicle I was excited to buy, I saw the wear but it wasn’t clear to me the extent of it. They told me that there is an expense related to transporting the vehicle from the lot to the service center. As such even if I picked it up from the closest SC to the vehicle I could only ask for my $2500 deposit back if the wear on the vehicle is inconsistent with the pictures. Otherwise it would be forfeit. A couple pictures had damage that was unclear to me. I asked for additional pictures of that specific damage, they said it was not possible. I went from being excited to walking away.

Perhaps I am more finicky than most as buying used already makes me worry, but this was my experience.
 
Or alternatively a new design on S/X is coming soon and they are trying to clear the inventory of the older style/spec at a discount so those that buy now get a price break despite "missing out" on the newest tech that's about to be revealed. Pure speculation but could explain what seems like an otherwise bizarre drop in prices as you point out.

Perhaps. The way Elon handed it on last week's call left me with the impression the price drop is permanent:

Something that I should - I forgot to mention. We're also also reducing the Model S and Model X prices and transitioning to online only. It effectively reduces our costs by about 5% maybe 6% and so we've applied that to S&X as well as to Model 3. So the S&X is also more affordable.

Anyway, my original point was conventional thinking is to use price drops as a demand lever too prop up sagging demand, so that is perhaps one reason for the negative sentiment on Wall Street.
 
I really don't get why there is so much speculation about S and X refresh. Elon has stated so many time that this will not happen.
I think it would be nice, but at this time it would be a waste of resources, and those resources are affected to more important things right now (Model Y, Pickup, China GF, Solar roof, etc).

Market action :

- I think it is a bad signal sent to big investors that they are closing stores. In the long haul, TSLA will probably prove that it was a good decision but for now, there is lot of unanswered question on how will they proceed and what will happen with the percentage of ''not-online'' sales. I do believe Tesla will make it work so that they will not lose sales but how? That I don't know and I think that as long as this point is not clearer, share price will suffer.

- I did not had the time to read all the posts of the last 100s pages (some here, some there) and sorry if I missed any info on this but, there seems to be a collective amnesia since the last 3-4 days on TMC about March 11th event... While I do agree that SEC might be more about enrichment of Short sellers in TSLA case, I can't toss away that Elon have to respond to court. This pending SEC story is something that affects the stock price A LOT, just like it did last fall. So let just hope that the judge will give Elon a free pass on this one, but that is unfortunately far from granted.

Good thing about this : TSLA shares are on sale!
 
A couple pictures had damage that was unclear to me. I asked for additional pictures of that specific damage, they said it was not possible. I went from being excited to walking away.
I am hoping that issues like this will be solved by offering better quality, higher definition images and perhaps videos of each car to prospective buyers.
 
  • Like
Reactions: neroden
Yah no. It’s there label on themselves. They attribute problems in their country to allowing foreign car companies into the US in the seventies. I’m not sure how they do it but they see Tesla as a foreign company. Like I said. Nice folks but set in their ways. Early seventies, late sixties.

That's pretty lunatic, given that Tesla is now one of only three American car companies. I don't think you can communicate with lunatics.

The deposits are about $280 million right now (so NOT a lot compared to Tesla's multi-billion dollar cash account); Tesla can use the cash, but it's accounted for as a liability (something owed) until the cars are paid for and delivered (or the deposits are refunded). There will be a lot fewer deposits soon as cars get delivered.
 
I'm definitely not in the 'bankwuptcy' camp but Tesla's moves over the last week leave me puzzled and the stock is taking a royal beating right now.

There are different vectors all contributing to one result- total domination in the EV and transportation. To list a few:
- quality/desirability of product
- demand
- cost

First, TSLA developed highly desirable products. Being priced as they were (and the niche therefore), it was important to maintain healthy demand. Incentives as free supercharging, referral programs, fancy (Apple store like) stores all played an important role maintaining the demand. However, they were not "for free"- they were adding cost to the product.

With TSLA going mainstream, lowering the cost, becomes an incentive (by itself) for higher demand. Therefore, the other "more costly" drivers for that, were naturally removed.

Elon is very open about his plans and it all make sense, when you look long term. Cost will be the defining metric, when the EV king gets crowned.

All TSLA does is working towards that goal (without compromising on the product itself). Battery cost, vertical integration, design for manufacturing, 'Alien dreadnought', etc. all lead to this desired result. Constant progress, constant innovation, constant improvement, all with cost in mind.

After all, Ferrari is superb car, but the most profitable companies from the ICE era were the cost driven, mass producer specialists- Toyota & VW.

Bottom line / TLDR: It's all about focus.
 
Musk reducing prices of 3, S and X drives additional demand while sacrificing margins gained from going to a purely online sales model, i.e. passing along savings to the customer.

Does this make sense economically when you're trying to squeeze incremental buyers for future production? Yes.
Is it a demand lever? Yes.
Does it harm future profits? No - net flat.
Does it increase Tesla's market share? Yes.
Will it help in the case of future incremental revenue from existing Tesla owners? Yes.
Does it reduce TOTAL revenue for similar production in the future? Maybe - but doubtful, b/c the customers willing to buy at a higher cost have already done so.

So, what is the problem?
 
I really don't get why there is so much speculation about S and X refresh. Elon has stated so many time that this will not happen.
I think it would be nice, but at this time it would be a waste of resources, and those resources are affected to more important things right now (Model Y, Pickup, China GF, Solar roof, etc).

That's not accurate at all. Elon has stated there are no plans to switch the S/X to 2170 batteries. Even when asked about S/X refresh on latest earnings, he said "we won't comment on future products"

Plus you're forgetting about the renders/concepts of the S/X that leaked a while back which looked very legit. There is at the very least a interior refresh coming, we just don't know when.
 
How is it that the 35k model 3 is still showing 2-4 weeks for delivery. With the pent up demand and the backlog of RSVP holders - I’m trying to find the logic here. Thoughts?

The delivery "estimates" on the website are always wrong. They are simply placeholders. This has been true for the last 5 years. I am getting used to it by now. If you want to call it false advertising, fine, maybe it is.
 
True.

If by "faster" they mean higher current (which determines the need for liquid cooling), then it does make some sense, since 200kW at 400V is a current of 500A, while 350kW at 800V is a current of 437.5A.

Except that current is not speed. Electrons travel at the same rate through annealed copper regardless of current level (ignoring zero). They could make the electrons faster by using hard drawn copper or silver though...

Speed of electricity - Wikipedia
 
With apologies to everyone who knows these things by heart.... Wikipedia, apparently from a textbook definition, defines economic demand as "...the quantity of a good that consumers are willing and able to purchase at various prices during a given period of time".

*Sigh* Technically, that's "quantity of demand", not "demand". Yes, professional economics terminology is obtuse.

Anyhow I think Musk meant something partway in between "addressable market" and "demand". I'm not sure if "addressable market" is exactly right, but if not maybe there's already a good marketing or econ term for this?

Economics students would refer to "demand", meaning "the demand curve", but it's an obtuse terminology. I hope there's a better marketing term.
 
  • Helpful
Reactions: lklundin