Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[Paul_SF]

Good luck getting 12.5k in taxes back when your household making 100k or less. Sometimes I wonder if these senetors even understand taxes and math.

Of course they don’t. They don’t have to. /s

 

[traxila]

Good luck getting 12.5k in taxes back when your household making 100k or less. Sometimes I wonder if these senetors even understand taxes and math.

In this case, they understand the math perfectly.

 

[Yuri_G]

Good luck getting 12.5k in taxes back when your household making 100k or less. Sometimes I wonder if these senetors even understand taxes and math.

Isn't the EV credit going to a point of sale credit this time?

 

[CHGolferJim]

In this case, they understand the math perfectly.

Perhaps The Accountant can supply the specific language, but it depends on what type of credit is written into the legislation (if it ever passes). There is a type of credit that would be effective at point of sale, or soon thereafter, that doesn’t require a particular level of tax due.

 

[2daMoon]

Good luck getting 12.5k in taxes back when your household making 100k or less. Sometimes I wonder if these senetors even understand taxes and math.

It seems to be clear that they do understand those things.

Doing it this way they get credit for "supporting" the initiative and the result is very little cost when few qualify to receive the "benefit" they have carefully arranged.

It is a win, win from their point of view that focuses more on reelection than being a positive force for desperately needed change.

 

[thx1139]

Why is the wider senate voting on means testing of EV credits when those aren’t in the bipartisan bill and in the reconciliation package it is a straight republican no. Why would republicans votes matter here if they vote against the actual bill?

Because that is what they do. They altered the ACA as well and 0 voted for it. They will alter this as well and then wont vote for it, but will take credit for all the new projects and jobs in their states. They did it with the COVID recovery stimulus.

 

[Singuy]

It seems to be clear that they do understand those things.

Doing it this way they get credit for "supporting" the initiative and the result is very little cost when few qualify to receive the "benefit" they have carefully arranged.

It is a win, win from their point of view that focuses more on reelection than being a positive force for desperately needed change.

Then you are assuming voting Americans understand taxes enough to understand what is going on with this scheme...hahahahaha. That was a good laugh.

 

[traxila]

Perhaps The Accountant can supply the specific language, but it depends on what type of credit is written into the legislation (if it ever passes). There is a type of credit that would be effective at point of sale, or soon thereafter, that doesn’t require a particular level of tax due.

“Republican Senator Deb Fischer of Nebraska proposed prohibiting people making more than $100,000 a year from claiming EV tax credits and to end tax credits for EVs that cost more than $40,000 -- levels that would exclude many of the electric vehicles on the market or planned to come to the…”

The language here is clear, this is based on tax credits. Like the previous exhausted tax credits (for Tesla and GM) you only get the money back if you paid it in US federal taxes. Furthermore, the ceiling of 40K, while possibly advantageous for Tesla, is a joke for the overall EV market which this is supposed to subsidize and encourage.

Obviously the details remain to be worked out, but it is simple to see what the attack plan is for the status quo. Make sure that only middle class incomes will be subsidized to buy ‘cheap’ BEVs, cause you know, ‘for da people!’. The fact that this combination will apply to only a small percentage of buyers, especially the BEV price tag, sounds terrific to them.

 

[thx1139]

“Republican Senator Deb Fischer of Nebraska proposed prohibiting people making more than $100,000 a year from claiming EV tax credits and to end tax credits for EVs that cost more than $40,000 -- levels that would exclude many of the electric vehicles on the market or planned to come to the…”

The language here is clear, this is based on tax credits. Like the previous exhausted tax credits (for Tesla and GM) you only get the money back if you paid it in US federal taxes. Furthermore, the ceiling of 40K, while possibly advantageous for Tesla, is a joke for the overall EV market which this is supposed to subsidize and encourage.

Obviously the details remain to be worked out, but it is simple to see what the attack plan is for the status quo. Make sure that only middle class incomes will be subsidized to buy ‘cheap’ BEVs, cause you know, ‘for da people!’. The fact that this combination will apply to only a small percentage of buyers, especially the BEV price tag, sounds terrific to them.

If this was enacted would it effect the existing tax credit. In other words all of a sudden all manufacturers, but Tesla and GM would lose the $7500 tax credit without restrictions and it be replaced with these new price and income limits. If so this will hurt the other manufacturers more then it helps the industry.

 

[StarFoxisDown!]

“Republican Senator Deb Fischer of Nebraska proposed prohibiting people making more than $100,000 a year from claiming EV tax credits and to end tax credits for EVs that cost more than $40,000 -- levels that would exclude many of the electric vehicles on the market or planned to come to the…”

The language here is clear, this is based on tax credits. Like the previous exhausted tax credits (for Tesla and GM) you only get the money back if you paid it in US federal taxes. Furthermore, the ceiling of 40K, while possibly advantageous for Tesla, is a joke for the overall EV market which this is supposed to subsidize and encourage.

Obviously the details remain to be worked out, but it is simple to see what the attack plan is for the status quo. Make sure that only middle class incomes will be subsidized to buy ‘cheap’ BEVs, cause you know, ‘for da people!’. The fact that this combination will apply to only a small percentage of buyers, especially the BEV price tag, sounds terrific to them.

to be clear though…..this is a republican proposing this and they have zero weight/leverage in this matter. This would go directly in the face of what Biden and Senate Democrats have already publically stated. I give this a less than 5% chance of actually being approved when the bill is written out to be voted on

Gotta remember how politics are played. It’s obvious the Republicans are trying to “say” they support climate change by providing an amendment that clearly cripples the EV credit( except for hilariously only Tesla). They know it won’t get taken up by Democrats but they can say to their voters in their states that “see I support climate change”.

They did the very same thing many times in the infrastructure bill that just passed

 

[canoemore]

“Republican Senator Deb Fischer of Nebraska proposed prohibiting people making more than $100,000 a year from claiming EV tax credits and to end tax credits for EVs that cost more than $40,000 -- levels that would exclude many of the electric vehicles on the market or planned to come to the…”

The language here is clear, this is based on tax credits. Like the previous exhausted tax credits (for Tesla and GM) you only get the money back if you paid it in US federal taxes. Furthermore, the ceiling of 40K, while possibly advantageous for Tesla, is a joke for the overall EV market which this is supposed to subsidize and encourage.

Obviously the details remain to be worked out, but it is simple to see what the attack plan is for the status quo. Make sure that only middle class incomes will be subsidized to buy ‘cheap’ BEVs, cause you know, ‘for da people!’. The fact that this combination will apply to only a small percentage of buyers, especially the BEV price tag, sounds terrific to them.

Frustrating, of course. But it would make it all the sweeter if this passes and Tesla says, "Oh, by the way, in 1 year everyone can buy this 30k Model 2. We were only going to charge 25k, but Congress thought they'd be clever so we thought we'd pad our margins."

 

[Nolimits]

This would replace the $7500 current incentive program, yes? So rivian will be hurting as well. What a cluster.

 

[StarFoxisDown!]

This would replace the $7500 current incentive program, yes? So rivian will be hurting as well. What a cluster.

It would cripple all auto makers…..except for Tesla…and would actually go a long way in giving Tesla an easy path to domination considering Tesla already has their costs so low. It would be complete game over here in the US

 

[ZeApelido]

A: "EV's aren't affordable!"

B: "Well let's help by subsidizing them until costs can be brought down enough to make them affordable"

A: "Great idea! So all EVs will get a tax credit?"

B: "No, only the affordable ones."

 

[traxila]

to be clear though…..this is a republican proposing this and they have zero weight/leverage in this matter. This would go directly in the face of what Biden and Senate Democrats have already publically stated. I give this a less than 5% chance of actually being approved when the bill is written out to be voted on

Gotta remember how politics are played. It’s obvious the Republicans are trying to “say” they support climate change by providing an amendment that clearly cripples the EV credit call ( except for hilariously only Tesla). They know it won’t get taken up by Democrats but they can say to their voters in their states that “see I support climate change”.

They did the very same thing many times in the infrastructure bill that just passed

I am in your corner, but let us not forget that this is a non binding amendment that passed with a majority vote.

 

[Pezpunk]

what an awesome way to encourage EV adoption, by only incentivizing manufacturers to produce cars they can't possible make a profit selling.

 

[Knightshade]

“Republican Senator Deb Fischer of Nebraska proposed prohibiting people making more than $100,000 a year from claiming EV tax credits and to end tax credits for EVs that cost more than $40,000 -- levels that would exclude many of the electric vehicles on the market or planned to come to the…”

The language here is clear, this is based on tax credits. Like the previous exhausted tax credits (for Tesla and GM) you only get the money back if you paid it in US federal taxes.

Not quite.

The current EV credit is like that- because it's non-refundable.

You don't get it if you don't have enough tax liability.

MANY tax credits- including a number of proposed replacement EV ones- ARE refundable- you get the full amount regardless of tax liability.

Being point-of-sale or not is an entirely separate issue BTW since someone asked about that.


As I said before- we won't know what the final credit looks like until there's an actual voted-on final bill.

This stuff can be amended/changed, sometimes drastically, right up until it's passed.



That said- this was a non-binding voting (Why legislatures even HAVE these baffles me) and apart from just a couple of the votes all the yeas were people who will be voting no on th final one anyway.

 

[Hock1]

Whenever a new model or significant upgrade has rolled out, the most expensive version has always been shipped first. This allows Tesla to be profitable after having spent a ton of money developing and ramping up production. It's just plain business good practice.

I'm fully aware of that. Why do you think I mentioned exactly that as a possibility? (rhetorical)

 

[Pezpunk]

At the risk of going off topic, I would like to expand upon my situation and say that, even though I am a Tesla fanboy through and through and would never buy any car other than a Tesla, I am miffed by the fact that there is no way for me to find out why we have to wait 8 or 9 months to get the car. This will be the third S that I have bought since 2013. I ordered this SLR for my wife who has recently fallen ill. There have been problems with each of the two Ss to date that I have not made a big deal of because, all things considered, it is still the best car I've ever owned. In any case, I wonder what the issue is. Is it because I ordered 19" wheels and they don't have them; is it because they have thousands of orders for much higher margin Plaids and they don't want to build a car that, since my order, has gone up in price by $10,000. It could be anything, but I don't think it is unreasonable for me to know the answer, as a dedicated owner and stakeholder.

8-9 months? pfff. found out this morning that my Model S Plaid will take a year and a half from order (September 2020) to delivery (February 2022 allegedly). It's fun watching so many others -- some with identical configurations and much, much later order dates -- get August delivery dates while i'm told to wait another 6 months on top of the year i've already spent in line, though.

 

[traxila]

If this was enacted would it effect the existing tax credit. In other words all of a sudden all manufacturers, but Tesla and GM would lose the $7500 tax credit without restrictions and it be replaced with these new price and income limits. If so this will hurt the other manufacturers more then it helps the industry.

The OEMs are still having wet dreams about BEVs going away and going back to business as usual. They will only stop with this nonsense when the ICE market is crushed completely. There is little doubt in my mind that the ICE industry overall in alliance with the OILs are behind this ‘brilliant’ plan to stop or delay the BEV momentum. They would love this form of tax credit.

Pretty much how it always works when disruption happens. Deny and delay and all the rest. The script for this playbook has been used successfully many times.