Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[madodel]

I don't know. It seems to me that a better way to tax unrealized gains would be to tax loans that are taken out against unrealized gains. It might not generate as much revenue from a few billionaires in a single pop, but it would probably get a lot more wealthy individuals paying their fair share of taxes who borrow against their unrealized assets as a tax shelter.

How about at least stop letting really rich people who borrow against there assets to take the interest as a tax deduction just to avoid paying capital gains tax? It is ridiculous that billionaires are paying zero or less than 1% tax on their income just because they hide it as equity. This keeps up and all the angry violent people may catch on to what is really going on and do something about it and historically that has never ended well. I don't get to deduct any interest on my taxes (I have no mortgage). Why do they?

 

[Captkerosene]

Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large numbers.

It's not that simple. I would guess that the best economic result for UAW workers would be a "full pay till the last day" approach to negotiations. The chances of changing the outcomes for their companies are very slim. Management, other employee groups, shareholders, bondholders, dealers and the government all have an interest in the company's success. The economics principle embodied here is the "tragedy of the commons." Without a powerful central governing body, individuals will act in their own self interest thus depleting resources faster than they are generated. (Same reason why pilots at airlines will risk their employers viability before taking pay cuts.) It's both the smart thing to do and the thing that could contribute to eventually costing the UAW's members their jobs.

 

[DragonWatch]

Lucent?

Thank you ~ I am not know for my spelling.

 

[UnknownSoldier]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1453479688832180228

Today's reminder that the United States spent over $4.4 TRILLION on the disastrous wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. And then the politicians wonder why Americans are tired of them constantly trying to take more to spend. None of us even got to vote on whether we wanted to go to war or not.

 

[LYTRIDR]

Interesting paper, thanks for posting it.

I still think comparison of corporate federal tax law to individual federal tax law isn't appropriate because the Constitution restricts only the "direct", individual taxes in this manner. All the examples from the Duke paper were examples of ways an individual can receive something of value *without* it counting as income, and the beef they had with it was based on it failing the equal protection clause. I didn't see anything suggesting that mere unrealized capital gains appreciation can be construed as income. Also, there's extensive SCOTUS precedent establishing that appreciation of land and buildings, at least, is not income taxable without apportionment per Amendment 16. Business equity such as Elon's stocks include the value increase of land and buildings.

Just a few points.

Corporate personhood protects the political speech of corporations. If corporations then have constitutional rights, how could the 16th amendment not also equally apply?

Land and buildings seem fundamentally different than a business, especially in the context of corporate personhood. re:Citizens United. I know of no legal concept where a building may claim any rights under the constitution, corporations can. They also grow more valuable in ways land and buildings cannot.

In no way do I think it is settled law that this mark to market definition of income is constitutionally sound, however, it is far from proven that it is unconstitutional either.

If you want to make the argument that Republicans dislike it and they have a 6-3 majority on the Supreme Court, therefore it is unconstitutional, I’d entertain that idea. Based on the information presented so far, I think we cannot make definitive claims.

 

[mejojo]

Today's reminder that the United States spent over $4.4 TRILLION on the disastrous wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. And then the politicians wonder why Americans are tired of them constantly trying to take more to spend. None of us even got to vote on whether we wanted to go to war or not.

Not only that....expensive wars ended but Military Industrial Complex gets funding increases anyway.

 

[RobDickinson]

Oh dear Bluecruse OTA update is delayed until Q1 2022 so they can catch up to the competition.

 

[AudubonB]

TODAY'S MODERATOR "TO-BE-READ-BY-ALL":

Since none of you appears able to let another have the Last Word, I shall have it: In that it appears the "Unrealized Capital Gains Tax" proposal will not be moving forward in this Congressional Session, all discussion on same likewise no longer will occur in this thread.

 

[RobDickinson]

So.. how about that stock price!?

 

[Curt Renz]

Not only that....expensive wars ended but Military Industrial Complex gets funding increases anyway.

Here's a portion of General Eisenhower's final speech as President in 1961. He meant to coin the term Military-Industrial-Congressional Complex, but shortened it for the final draft.

 

[Thumper]

Ordered an SLR today for next summer road trips.
PS: I have many cogent and insightful political opinions which I will not share with you in this thread. You’re welcome.

 

[larmor]

So.. how about that stock price!?

Tesla's master plan remains unrealized.

 

[Gigapress]

Just a few points.

Corporate personhood protects the political speech of corporations. If corporations then have constitutional rights, how could the 16th amendment not also equally apply?

Land and buildings seem fundamentally different than a business, especially in the context of corporate personhood. re:Citizens United. I know of no legal concept where a building may claim any rights under the constitution, corporations can. They also grow more valuable in ways land and buildings cannot.

In no way do I think it is settled law that this mark to market definition of income is constitutionally sound, however, it is far from proven that it is unconstitutional either.

If you want to make the argument that Republicans dislike it and they have a 6-3 majority on the Supreme Court, therefore it is unconstitutional, I’d entertain that idea. Based on the information presented so far, I think we cannot make definitive claims.

Starting to get way outside my expertise, but ...

Corporations do not have all the Constitutional rights of natural persons. For instance, they do not have the 5th amendment protection against self-incrimination. So the 16th amendment does not necessarily apply equally to a corporation and a natural person.

On the other hand, upon further research I see that corporate tax is actually a type of direct tax, so then maybe the mark-to-market thing could carry over to individuals.

Direct Tax Definition, History, and Examples

A direct tax is a tax paid directly by an individual or organization to the entity that levied the tax, such as the U.S. government.

www.investopedia.com

At this point I'd say I'm confused about the law, but that it'd require directly overturning the Macombs case precedent, and ultimately I think there are other good reasons it's unlikely to pass Congress anyway. I tried. I will stick to engineering.

Yes, the practical reality of the current SCOTUS makeup is another consideration in ultimately predicting Elon will retain control of his Tesla/SpaceX/Boring/Neuralink equity.

 

[Tommy O]

Lots of boring tax law bickering in here that I can't get on with when I'm sitting here STILL trying to get Tesla to sell me the car I ordered (my third Tesla) back in May of this year. Yeah, the Hertz deal will definitely delay delivery to some customers, but considering the $4.2B deal for 100k SR+ model 3s, they're paying more than I am, and I'm including the $750 for direct delivery to my house. Seems like the deal was inked sometime after my order...

Anyone have that chart of price changes over time handy?

 

[Drax7]

Today's reminder that the United States spent over $4.4 TRILLION on the disastrous wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. And then the politicians wonder why Americans are tired of them constantly trying to take more to spend. None of us even got to vote on whether we wanted to go to war or not.

One trillion equates to 1 million , million dollar homes.
that makes up a pretty nice subdivision.

have to question the government, it’s not working

 

[Tommy O]

Saw some posts about Benedict Evans and his bearish prognostications for Tesla. He rightfully shut down assertions that Tesla is a company to invest in because they sell batteries, which was a common argument in reply to his tweets. But that's a big strawman.

Tesla is a company to invest in because they control the market for batteries. They're not a monopsony, but their power to direct batteries into their products at preferential pricing is unmatched. During the shareholder's meeting this year, Elon mentioned the battery companies asking if Tesla was simply going to put them in the grave. He told them "no" and said they'd have business for years.

It's near absolute control of the market for battery cells for EVs.

 

[ZachF]

Spending is THE problem. Guys accumulating, sitting on, and then passing to their kids $300B is also A problem. Guess what.....it's not black and white. And I would argue that extreme inequality is a far far greater threat to American and human society than debt. It's un-American.

Lets also not forget Elon is not an insignificant percentage of that government spending. Yes he's saving us billions in spite of ourselves, but that's just less wasteful military spending. Launching Space Force crap into orbit is, in it's entirety, wasteful.

This is not a great look for Musk. Not terrible, just not great. He has 1/7th the wealth of the entire bottom 50% of the nation, and that'll get far far worse once inflation hits and this housing bubble pops.

I've had a short fuse with folks here the last few days with all the they're-gonna-tax-my-millions-that-landed-in-my-lap talk. I walked through a volunteer run covid testing/vaccination site in North Philly on Monday and it was one of the most depressing things I've ever seen. I live adjacent to extreme poverty every day so I see plenty, but on occasion in Philly you get to see something so wrong it makes you sick all week.

If we can't talk TSLA investment, lets at least focus on price movements in long Chevron puts.

It’s almost entirely the government’s fault that income inequality is rising. Part of it is the federal reserve, with the rich getting first access to freshly created money, and the other part is poor trade policy allowing the rest of the world to dump excess savings into the US. ( see the book “Trade Wars are Class Wars”)

Martin Wolf: what trade wars tell us

A new book looks at why global conflicts owe more to divisions within countries than between them

amp.ft.com

 

[Wicket]

Arkk down another 2% today and more ah despite tsla bounce. Goes to show the value of diversification when your #1 position and thing you are vastly excited about is roughly 4x the size of a myriad of companies you barely think about. I know there are fans of this but count me out.

Sometimes you really have to cut the surface area of things you focus on. Take me for instance. I have no idea about constitutional limits to taxation and given now the practical matter of it, intend to remain that way. I do however intend to figure out how to evade California's clutches.

 

[Tommy O]

Arkk down another 2% today and more ah despite tsla bounce. Goes to show the value of diversification when your #1 position and thing you are vastly excited about is roughly 4x the size of a myriad of companies you barely think about. I know there are fans of this but count me out.

Sometimes you really have to cut the surface area of things you focus on. Take me for instance. I have no idea about constitutional limits to taxation and given now the practical matter of it, intend to remain that way. I do however intend to figure out how to evade California's clutches.

Ark does great research. But then, I guess because they feel it's prudent and what everyone else expects them to do, they invest in a lot of crap companies to "diversify" or something.

I wish they had something like a Star, Medallion, Whatever Fund that consisted only of publicly traded companies that they've done deep dives into. Which is a very small number, from what I'm tracking. They post all of this online. Could be wrong.

Hope they do well, Cathy is amazing. Personally will never invest in Ark funds.

 

[Singuy]

Arkk down another 2% today and more ah despite tsla bounce. Goes to show the value of diversification when your #1 position and thing you are vastly excited about is roughly 4x the size of a myriad of companies you barely think about. I know there are fans of this but count me out.

Sometimes you really have to cut the surface area of things you focus on. Take me for instance. I have no idea about constitutional limits to taxation and given now the practical matter of it, intend to remain that way. I do however intend to figure out how to evade California's clutches.

Out of Arkk's top 10 holdings.

Tesla had a small gain, SHOP being flat, and Spotify had a 8% green day. The rest all took a dump with Twilio leading the charge.