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Exactly.

In fact, Tesla bears and shorts who, desperate to reduce demand, will soon be banging drums over and over, declaring "the $25,000 Model 2 is around the corner, we expect the reveal this month" etc. - hoping people will put off ordering from the existing product line. We should expect endless speculative renders+coverage from insideevs.com and other sites that depend on clicks.

In 2013 I went from a Honda Civic to my Model S, because that was the only Tesla available. When a $25,000 Tesla is available, it will surely eat into sales of the 3+Y.

With an overflowing order book relative to production, it seems it wouldn’t eat into sales but possibly reduce the waitlist. If the benefit is that you can essentially kill PHEVs, which many legacies intend to use as their lifeline, I think the mission benefits from that tradeoff, no?
 
Then don't write a 500 word reply :p .
To fully cover this topic would take 100's of thousands of words.

Remember that will all of Elon's ambition he only hopes to reach 20% market penetration by 2030 - where is the other 80% going to come from? If these are the only subsidies on the table then it is better to get them than not.
The only question you posed is above and it is about a future where EV's do not get a huge tax credit.

The basic answer is two-fold: not every ICE maker will go bankrupt, only the most bloated and inefficient. Any projection of 20% market share by 2030 would be in a world with subsidies to legacy makers. Ark Invest is projecting 25% market share by 2026! That projection must be understood to be in a scenario with likely subsidies. Tesla could have well over 50% by 2030 and the more efficient makers who don't go bankrupt can pick up the slack. It might be Rivian too, we don't know yet. One thing is for certain: Cars will be a much better value and will be built with a much lower carbon footprint in a future world arrived at without subsidies! Subsidies as large as those being proposed pervert capitalism and its inherent efficiencies.

Secondly, I don't think many of the legacy makers will go broke much before 2026, even without this bill. Over the next 5 years they will crank out tens of millions of new ICE cars, many of which will be sold at a large loss near the end. These cars won't even be at their half-life by 2030. And that's without this bill, with it the results are much worse. The crime here is there will be a surplus of newer ICE cars no one will want, at least not at the cost to produce them. But they will sell for much below the cost to produce and be put into service anyway. It would be a terrible corruption of the efficiency capitalism is known for.

Here's what US auto sales look like between 1976 and 2020:
1639009606181.png


In a world without US EV subsidies, I expect new car sales to decline to 12 million/year for at least 3-4 years before rising EV production can reverse the trend.

The demand for new ICE cars will also drop off naturally (that's why the least efficient makers will go bankrupt). Newer cars last longer than old cars. They are better protected from corrosion and have more modern engines and transmissions that are built to higher tolerances. Also, looking through the decade we should see fewer cars totalled in accident, DUI is declining, tires are better than ever, the cars are more maneuverable and safer with more electronic interventions dropping the accident rate, the ratio of EV's is rapidly growing with less of them being taken out of the fleet due to blown transmissions, engines, etc. The US has been a laggard in BEV adoption and that will continue with the proposed subsidies but it would eventually reverse without subsidies so the US would get a slightly higher percentage of global EV production.

The answer to your question is that free-markets have a way of working through disruptions. Anyone claiming we couldn't get to work if legacy makers go bankrupt doesn't know what they are talking about. It's a red herring.
 
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The tax rebate would increase demand for Tesla. But Tesla clearly has enough demand and could probably decrease prices with $10k anytime they want and still be profitable once Berlin and Austin is fully ramped and with FSD and insurance adding strong margins. But competition won’t be able to make EVs profitable in big volume without the subsidy. Short term this means fewer EVs being produced, but long term it means Tesla will be more dominant and very quickly their 50-80%/year growth will make up for their lack of competition. Tesla makes EVs way more efficiently than GM/Ford, it is just wasteful for the economy to have competition if competition is gonna be so bad. So I think Elon has decided that he will go for the nuclear option, electrify the entire world without any help from legacy industry. And I think Biden has underestimated how Elon would react to being bullied. Elon has a powerful weapon on his side, truth and many of his 60M followers are voters. At some point Biden will realize that the unions are much smaller than Elon’s following and alienating them probably was a very bad idea…
 
The open ended nature of this thing is one of my big concerns too.

Resetting the cap to another 200k units would bother me a lot less. The cost estimate is laughably low and Tesla will break through the entire estimated cost in less than 3 years.

There are a lot of ways they could have put a cap on this but they didn’t bother. I’m surprised this didn’t get flagged when they audited it.
There's no cap because it's designed as a "stealth" bailout for Ford, GM, and to a lesser degree Stallentis. I honestly believe that the authors don't understand Tesla and their ability to produce vehicles in volume. :rolleyes:
 
I've been quietly chewing on how the US Gov't might respond to a Model 2 and early timing... considering those EV incentives are part of the BBB plan. As someone pointed out yesterday (sorry, like 100 pages ago) the incentives seemed to be providing a sweet spot for GM as if by design, and with little motivation to create a bigger battery than the bare minimum.

How an early reveal could alter the BBB would be wishful. But if Hybrids + rebates don't offer a lower entry price, say around $25K... Is Elon trying to tank the BBB in it's current form? Help me out, I'm not a numbers guy ;)

An early reveal of Model 2/C is speculation at this stage.

IMO it is possible that CATL is making 4680 LFP cells in the new factory, I hope they are.
Bu these 4680 LFP cells could go into Model Y and Megapacks as well as Model 2/C.

Assuming the Model 2/C did exist for $25K, I think it would detract from sales of low end PHEVs of the kind that BBB may perhaps support GM selling.
Model 2/C would also reduce a lot of entry level ICE sales.

Behind the scenes BBB can't be an unlimited amount of money, if it is funded by borrowing, then the debt ceiling would need to be raised.
So in all probability they are going to chew through funds allocated to BBB much faster than they expect, this also happens if Model 2/C isn't revealed soon.

We don't really know what is being built at GF Shanghai, but my guess is that everything that has been built so far is to expand Model 3/Y production, not for Model 2 production. Model 2 production probably needs new stamping, new paint, new casting, new body shop, and new GA.

So IMO Model 2/C has a minimal impact on BBB, and there is no real linkage.

Elon waring with the Biden administration is an unfortunate distraction. The core problem seems to be a strong disagreement on unions, and the UAW in particular, which seems impossible to resolve.
 
With the $ inflation for past 20 months, I strongly feel there WILL NOT be 25K whatever Tesla car.
Even if this gets announced and manufactured fairly soon, it will easily be 35K minimum.

People now pay ~60K for MY and are happy to get it.

I even feel that there will not be 50K CT. Yes, the 50K CT from 2 years ago will easily be 60K+ when available.
 
Theres no point in CATL making 4680 LFP cells.

That would reduce the energy density and add cost to use a system with no actual advantage for LFP cells?
IMO the advantage is using standard 4680 cells for everything eventually.

I would also question whether 4680 LFP cells could charge faster and more efficiently than prismatic LFP cells, and if when used with a structural battery pack the resulting car is lighter.

On structural batteries made with prismatic cells, this is the right thread for the discussion:- Investor Engineering Discussions

Basically my thoughts are that the structural elements of the Blade battery might not come from the cells, if you disagree, please respond in that other thread.
 
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With the $ inflation for past 20 months, I strongly feel there WILL NOT be 25K whatever Tesla car.
Even if this gets announced and manufactured fairly soon, it will easily be 35K minimum.

People now pay ~60K for MY and are happy to get it.

I even feel that there will not be 50K CT. Yes, the 50K CT from 2 years ago will easily be 60K+ when available.
$25k Tesla is for China market first. Demand is different there.

It’s likely it won’t happen until after Berlin is able to supply Europe with Model Y and Model 3 though.
 
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Reading a bunch of TMCers discussing about why this generational genius who majored in Economics is wrong about Economics is hilarious. He knows his stuff regarding the general permanence of federal spending programs, the ludicrous underestimation of costs, and efficient capital allocation. He doesn't fall for the Modern Monetary Theory pixie dust either, which I figured folks here would notice.

Elon is the smartest dude in the room within his area of expertise and Economics is one of those and climate change is another. I'm gonna stick with him.
 
There's no cap because it's designed as a "stealth" bailout for Ford, GM, and to a lesser degree Stallentis. I honestly believe that the authors don't understand Tesla and their ability to produce vehicles in volume. :rolleyes:
Perhaps they buy the BS that GM and Ford are saying about their production coming online and beating Tesla within 5 years.

I suspect GM/ Ford/ Washington haven’t figured out the scope of replicating what Tesla has done yet.
 
Reading a bunch of TMCers discussing about why this generational genius who majored in Economics is wrong about Economics is hilarious. He knows his stuff regarding the general permanence of federal spending programs, the ludicrous underestimation of costs, and efficient capital allocation. He doesn't fall for the Modern Monetary Theory pixie dust either, which I figured folks here would notice.

Elon is the smartest dude in the room within his area of expertise and Economics is one of those and climate change is another. I'm gonna stick with him.

He's also, occasionally, wrong.
 
I dont understand why everyone on this forum doesn’t see this exact situation (No capping of EV subsidy) as the best possible thing imaginable, for both fighting climate change and for their Tesla investment.
Off the top of my head …
1-Tesla is back ordered for months and is not having trouble finding buyers
2-Shortage of battery manufacturing is the biggest problem for everyone
3-Encouraging continued production of hybrids is not a good thing for TSLA or the environment
4-The Government should not be in the business of picking winners (ie the union stuff, the effective bailout of GM/Ford)
5-Offering incentives when demand outstrips supply seems odd

The government *can* be helpful in developing new industries - for example, if this money had been used to offer tax incentives for battery production and/or battery raw material production or even a ”trade in your ICE clunker for a full electric EV and we’ll give you $$$ to get it off the road“ program - both the message and the result might be better.

The political optics of giving $7500 to Tesla/Audi/Porsche buyers or another $4500 “because union” diminishes the environmental point and increases the anger and resentment of Gascar drivers.

Leaving this program open ended just makes it worse ….
 
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Perhaps they buy the BS that GM and Ford are saying about their production coming online and beating Tesla within 5 years.

I suspect GM/ Ford/ Washington haven’t figured out the scope of replicating what Tesla has done yet.
Agree, how quickly Tesla can scale and the number of units they can bring to the market is severely underestimated.

I think Elon despises people saying Tesla had been successful because of subsidies and Tesla is gonna get so much in the EV tax credit, that even he thinks it's unfair.

Unfortunately he cannot come out and say that. So the best talking point is to point out that incentives are not needed, and may be find a way to put oil cos under the spotlight.
 
To fully cover this topic would take 100's of thousands of words.


The only question you posed is above and it is about a future where EV's do not get a huge tax credit.

The basic answer is two-fold: not every ICE maker will go bankrupt, only the most bloated and inefficient. Any projection of 20% market share by 2030 would be in a world with subsidies to legacy makers. Ark Invest is projecting 25% market share by 2026! That projection must be understood to be in a scenario with likely subsidies. Tesla could have well over 50% by 2030 and the more efficient makers who don't go bankrupt can pick up the slack. It might be Rivian too, we don't know yet. One thing is for certain: Cars will be a much better value and will be built with a much lower carbon footprint in a future world arrived at without subsidies! Subsidies as large as those being proposed pervert capitalism and its inherent efficiencies.

Secondly, I don't think many of the legacy makers will go broke much before 2026, even without this bill. Over the next 5 years they will crank out tens of millions of new ICE cars, many of which will be sold at a large loss near the end. These cars won't even be at their half-life by 2030. And that's without this bill, with it the results are much worse. The crime here is there will be a surplus of newer ICE cars no one will want, at least not at the cost to produce them. But they will sell for much below the cost to produce and be put into service anyway. It would be a terrible corruption of the efficiency capitalism is known for.

Here's what US auto sales look like between 1976 and 2020:
View attachment 742141

In a world without US EV subsidies, I expect new car sales to decline to 12 million/year for at least 3-4 years before rising EV production can reverse the trend.

The demand for new ICE cars will also drop off naturally (that's why the least efficient makers will go bankrupt). Newer cars last longer than old cars. They are better protected from corrosion and have more modern engines and transmissions that are built to higher tolerances. Also, looking through the decade we should see fewer cars totalled in accident, DUI is declining, tires are better than ever, the cars are more maneuverable and safer with more electronic interventions dropping the accident rate, the ratio of EV's is rapidly growing with less of them being taken out of the fleet due to blown transmissions, engines, etc. The US has been a laggard in BEV adoption and that will continue with the proposed subsidies but it would eventually reverse without subsidies so the US would get a slightly higher percentage of global EV production.

The answer to your question is that free-markets have a way of working through disruptions. Anyone claiming we couldn't get to work if legacy makers go bankrupt doesn't know what they are talking about. It's a red herring.

Agree. GM and Ford still sell a significant amount of vehicles outside of the US. As of 2020, GM sold more cars in China than they did in the US. China really is the big kid on the block. These companies have a long way to fall from grace. Tesla obtaining 25% market share, with the advancement of Chinese EV players and EV startups and declining ICE OEM, by 2030 (approx. 20M) is Tesla's stated goal, and most here on TMC believe this to be achievable, with or without incentives. Tesla is only at +-3% today.

<China was the largest single target market for General Motors in 2020. During the 2020 fiscal year, the Detroit company and its associations sold some 2.9 million motor vehicles to customers in China, the world's largest automobile market.>Google

<Overall, G.M. sold 2.5 million cars and light trucks in 2020, down from nearly 2.9 million a year earlier. Auto sales fell sharply last spring as consumers stayed away from dealerships because of the coronavirus pandemic.>Google