Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
All right, you who so promptly flagged with a Disagree: Why? Would you care to elaborate, or did you mistakenly believe this is not a discussion forum, but Twitter?
It's just the bias on a forum such as this. People tend to disagree more with negative Tesla comments.

I had about 80% Disagree 10% Agree and 10% other emoticons (Rough estimate) on a post I made earlier last week about how big money doesn't really want to be buying TSLA right now, it's now down another 10%-15% from that time of posting. I guess the 80% that disagreed weren't big money.
 
All right, you who so promptly flagged with a Disagree: Why? Would you care to elaborate, or did you mistakenly believe this is not a discussion forum, but Twitter?

Maybe because your "simple reason" for being "leery" of Cybertruck's performance is deficient in logic. Why should Tesla do another unveiling of Cybertruck when they already have more orders than they can fill in probably years? Talking up a product you can't deliver yet has no benefit and some risk of Osborneing Model Y.

Also, a defect in Tesla's second-generation platform seems weak reasoning for suspecting the same defect in their fourth or fifth generation vehicle, given what we know about Tesla's rate of engineering innovation.

Also, your anecdote about Rivian engineers is reasoning-by-analogy. Tesla is not Rivian.
 
It's just the bias on a forum such as this. People tend to disagree more with negative Tesla comments.

I had about 80% Disagree 10% Agree and 10% other emoticons (Rough estimate) on a post I made earlier last week about how big money doesn't really want to be buying TSLA right now, it's now down another 10%-15% from that time of posting. I guess the 80% that disagreed weren't big money.
No, it was just 'cause I can't stand hedge fund managers and analysts... plus negative posts about Tesla that are incorrect because they're not well researched.
 
Alexandra Merz's excellent article on rationale and propects of Tesla stock buyback.


Logically, if it were to happen, it could be soon (low SP and tax changes next year).
There are also the new shares from Elon's CEO plan to deal with. Though I predict those 304 million shares (9.7% of current outstanding down from 12% when created) will wait as long as possible to be executed (January 20, 2028).
 
I disagreed with you because Tesla has learned A LOT from the early days of the S & X, as shown by how well the doors work on the X currently. Plus, as illustrated in the vid that Kanweg posted, the exoskeleton construction by default is going to eliminate many of the issues with which you're concerned. If you haven't yet watched it, I highly recommend that you do. The advantages that the exoskeleton provides is truly a game changer. And now that they have or will shortly have the needed gigapress in Austin, I feel they can definitely get the bugs out by mid 2023.

Sorry (not sorry) for the post above, I couldn't resist digging on a Mod for once.
I am delighted, entranced and supremely enthusiastic about the CT's exoskeleton and I fully believe it will be a game changer. At the same time, I also understand it has absolutely zero ramifications on how well or how poorly a suspension will perform.
 
It's just the bias on a forum such as this. People tend to disagree more with negative Tesla comments.

I had about 80% Disagree 10% Agree and 10% other emoticons (Rough estimate) on a post I made earlier last week about how big money doesn't really want to be buying TSLA right now, it's now down another 10%-15% from that time of posting. I guess the 80% that disagreed weren't big money.
I disagreed because the world is a "peak-anxiety" at present, which means "low-rationality".

We should think for ourselves. So I don't care what so called "big money" is dong.
 
Maybe because your "simple reason" for being "leery" of Cybertruck's performance is deficient in logic. Why should Tesla do another unveiling of Cybertruck when they already have more orders than they can fill in probably years? Talking up a product you can't deliver yet has no benefit and some risk of Osborneing Model Y.

Also, a defect in Tesla's second-generation platform seems weak reasoning for suspecting the same defect in their fourth or fifth generation vehicle, given what we know about Tesla's rate of engineering innovation.

Also, your anecdote about Rivian engineers is reasoning-by-analogy. Tesla is not Rivian.
The final two sentences are appropriate discussion points. I was bragging about that...partly to re-establish my creds* and partly to bring up a further point upon which I did not elaborate but will here: a suspension designed for normal roads can fail spectacularly in off-road conditions; with the reverse one can get a vehicle that is awful to handle on highways - for example, my BJ40 LandCruiser.

*We also have hosted:
- the GM engineer who was responsible for bringing to light the Chevy Bolt;
- the very senior Ford engineer who listened carefully to why I have been enthusiastic about Tesla, and who, the following morning, obviously thought I was naive with my response to whether I still held all my TSLA shares after having watched them quintuple. That was, of course, around 2016;
- the mechanical engineer for Mercedes who refuses to believe that wind + solar can supplant coal power in northern Germany, and whose overall opinion of Mr Musk is that he is at best deluded and at worst both a fraud and a horrible human being.

They have been working on the CyberTruck for several years now and while your points may have been valid in 2020 and even last year, I think we're way past that now.

And as for your first point, I can't wait to see a few in the Baja 1000 or Barstow to Vegas... It's going to be epic!
You may be right...or you may not. "I think we're way past that" is wishful thinking rather than demonstrative of....anything.

Let's approach this another way. "Once bitten, twice shy" also is an understandable attitude for humans. And Tesla got bitten pretty badly when Franz twice shattered the CT's windows. But does that give Tesla a pass for not showing any further progress? After all, they have done so with batteries, with AI, with FSD - but not with the truck? That's not a happy observation.
No, and no.
You contradict yourself.
 
Amongst all this fear about China demand, I find it interesting that there’s little talk about Tesla paying Giga Shanghai employees 3x normal pay to work thru a holiday week where they would normally be off so they can keep production going.

Does that honestly sound like a factory experiencing demand issues? Doesn’t sound like it to me…
It almost seems like Tesla is playing a game of chicken with the Chinese consumer.

We are going to hold off for on reducing prices until we absolutely need to. Tesla management must be feeling confident about exports+ China domestic sales. OTOH the Chinese consumer seems to be better informed about prices than let’s say the American consumer.

My guess is we will not see any price cuts until Nov 1st.
 
  • Like
Reactions: petit_bateau
No, it was just 'cause I can't stand hedge fund managers and analysts... plus negative posts about Tesla that are incorrect because they're not well researched.
I disagreed because the world is a "peak-anxiety" at present, which means "low-rationality".

We should think for ourselves. So I don't care what so called "big money" is dong.
Fair enough. I appreciate the reasons.

I guess for me (And I've only been a short holder of Tesla, last few years) I've seen what happens when big money doesn't want to buy Tesla. We trade sideways while the index and other stocks trade upwards (Tesla 600 last year for 6 + months). So i know that no matter how much you dislike them, or don't care about them, if you are a Tesla stock holder, you need them. The majority of them are sheep so they'll all just follow each other. So when we are in times like this, just try to think like them and that'll help explain why the stock may be trading the way it is.
 
The overall commercial trucking market has been growing steadily for the entire 21st century with two cyclical interruptions for the 2002 and 2008 recessions, as the stacked bar chart from Statista shows in my prior post today. Simple linear extrapolation of the growth trend for the Class 8 truck market in the US suggests that about 2.5M will be sold in the next decade. If I remember correctly, Tesla historically has taken about 40% market segment share in each respective segment for the S3XY lineup, so if they took 40% of 2.5M then they'd sell 1M which leads to $80B estimated subsidy with $80k per truck estimated earlier today. Likewise, for Classes 4-8 as a collective, there's currently sales of around 420k per year and with extrapolation of growth trends we can expect a baseline of maybe 5M sold in the next decade, so Tesla maybe could claim 2M of it with naive application of 40% market share history as representative of future market share performance.

Why has this growth happened? Demand for interstate commerce has increased, especially as online shopping has gained popularity. Also, the economy and population of the US has grown over this time. Growth of both the online shopping sector and the US macroeconomy is likely to continue into the future, so we can expect continued growth of demand for trucks. A nationwide network of Boring Company freight tunnels is not going to be completed overnight and air freight is fundamentally less efficient and has less capacity and flexibility for point-to-point deliveries, so freight trucks are going to continue to be needed more and more in the future. Functional work vehicles are also indispensable tools for a wide variety of jobs beyond just freight, of course. General growth of the economy is inextricably tied to demand for commercial motor vehicles, as is clearly shown in times when oil price spikes have caused or contributed to recessions like in the 1970s and 2007-2012.

If I'm understanding things correctly, all the qualified commercial clean vehicles over 14k lbs gross weight rating are going to be receiving federal subsidies which will be 30% of the sale price plus about $50/kWh total subsidy for their hefty professional-grade batteries. For instance, Tesla sells a tricked-out, medium-duty Class 5 work truck for $80k with a 200 kWh battery it could receive up to 30% * $80k + 200 kWh * $50/kWh = $34k of federal subsidies. This would be in addition to any state-level subsidies, such as New York's generous NY Truck Voucher Incentive Programs (link), largely funded by Volkswagen's diesel testing fraud settlement.

Since the effective upfront price of these vehicles is being lowered by roughly 50%, the revenue per vehicle received by the manufacturer will go up and so will the quantity demanded because the customer is still paying less. Plus BEV medium- and heavy-duty commercial vehicles will be fundamentally more utilitarian and reliable with higher uptime than internal combustion ones, same as with the Cybertruck. The law of demand says when you have a better product that costs less, quantity demanded is higher. So, the US sales trend shown in the Statista sales history may actually inflect sharply upwards in the next few years. The question is still battery supply and factory output, but these incentives will drive a lot of increased investment by giving mining and refining businesses more confidence that they can get high margins and sustained demand for the minerals, and they will probably ramp more aggressively. The deadline of 31 Dec 2032 to claim the benefits gives everyone in America a limited time to try to replace their fleet in the window of giant subsidies. Who won't want to immediately save fat stacks of money while drastically reducing maintenance and repair headaches, instead of delaying, placing orders too late, falling behind competition, and then missing the chance to get the half-off deal?

Therefore, simple linear extrapolation is probably way wrong. It's hard to guess just what the quantity sold will be in the next decade except that it's probably going way up from 2022 levels because it depends on how sensitive buyers are to price and how much they value the benefits of BEVs for their operations. So what if it's 10M trucks? Or 20M? And what if Tesla's technology and manufacturing advantage matters even more for the work vehicles because those buyers care more about objectively measurable characteristics where Tesla wins across the board, like cost, range, charging speed, charging network, and longevity? Let's venture out a bit further and guess that Tesla sells 5M Class 4-8 vehicles in total in the American market by 2032, with an average total per-vehicle subsidy benefit accruing to Tesla of maybe $40k. Now the total IRA subsidy is 5M * $40k = $200B directly to Tesla's profits.

Work vehicles get much heavier annual usage than private passenger vehicles, and thus these vehicles can shift the schedule forward for the transition to sustainable energy consumption even more than the mere money helps with the mission. Diesel vehicles in particular also take a heavy toll on human health due to their hazardous air pollution which Tesla also wants to solve as quickly as possible. So, 5M Class 4-8 vehicles by 2032 might be too low still, especially considering Tesla's overall goal of 20M per year in 2030, but I don't want to get carried away. That adds up to Tesla basically planning for roughly 130M total vehicles produced in the next decade, and 5M Class 3-4 would be just 4% of their total unit volume.

$200B / 3.5B shares outstanding fully diluted = estimated $57/share value opportunity from USA tax change for Class 4+ commercial vehicles.
 
Last edited:
Fair enough. I appreciate the reasons.

I guess for me (And I've only been a short holder of Tesla, last few years) I've seen what happens when big money doesn't want to buy Tesla. We trade sideways while the index and other stocks trade upwards (Tesla 600 last year for 6 + months). So i know that no matter how much you dislike them, or don't care about them, if you are a Tesla stock holder, you need them. The majority of them are sheep so they'll all just follow each other. So when we are in times like this, just try to think like them and that'll help explain why the stock may be trading the way it is.
I need them like a hole in the head. While I concur it may be a factor in the way the stock is trading now, that doesn't mean I have to like it.

But, good on ya mate, at least you're an Aussie!
 
  • Funny
Reactions: Artful Dodger
We have been hearing for years that "China is coming". The recent reddit post just clarified that point succinctly where the model range expansion, price competitiveness and quality has greatly improved in the last 3-12months. That doesn't mean a Chinese EV takeover is imminent or guaranteed, just that its worth taking the time to run sensitivities on potential outcomes. When legacy OEMs have announced their new products we could see that they mostly sucked, were expensive, and they didn't have the cell supply to compete at scale.

As the market matures over the next couple of years we'll get a better idea of how legitimate the competition is.

It's not a question of whether Chinese autos are "legitimate competitors" or not. The point is, they will have a very difficult time making inroads into N. America and Europe in high volumes over the next 4-7 years. The have almost zero presence currently. They will need to grow service and support networks at the same time they establish brand recognition and trust. Even if wildly successful at doing these things, the volumes would need to be very high, miraculously high, to slow down Tesla's expansion before 2030. To reach that kind of volume they not only need impressive supply chains, they also need to figure out how to substantially undercut Tesla on price when comparing apples to apples. That's harder than it seems because Tesla can lower prices as needed. Two more years is not going to tell us much more than we know right now. Which is that Tesla has a high-volume cost to produce advantage and the best Chinese makers will be able to displace ICE sales but will not fare very well if they have to battle head-to-head for market share with Tesla. And, guess what? For the next 7 years, they don't have to battle head-to-head with Tesla for market share, and they won't.

I would also be careful about taking analysis published on Reddit too seriously. Yes, potential outcomes must always be analyzed. But it baffles me why you think that is not being done before dismissing the idea that cheap, high quality EV's from China are going to provide a knock-down punch to Tesla's growth plans. You talk as if people are not aware of the growing EV production in China. Of course, quality and price are going to improve with time and higher volumes. But it's not clear why you think that's going to slow Tesla down. Tesla will continue to improve as well. That's what they do and how they got to where they are so quickly. I would be more worried about scarcity of raw materials slowing Tesla down than direct competition from Chinese automakers. One thing is clear, a lot of ICE sales will be displaced over the next 7 years.
 
The final two sentences are appropriate discussion points. I was bragging about that...partly to re-establish my creds* and partly to bring up a further point upon which I did not elaborate but will here: a suspension designed for normal roads can fail spectacularly in off-road conditions; with the reverse one can get a vehicle that is awful to handle on highways - for example, my BJ40 LandCruiser.

*We also have hosted:
- the GM engineer who was responsible for bringing to light the Chevy Bolt;
- the very senior Ford engineer who listened carefully to why I have been enthusiastic about Tesla, and who, the following morning, obviously thought I was naive with my response to whether I still held all my TSLA shares after having watched them quintuple. That was, of course, around 2016;
- the mechanical engineer for Mercedes who refuses to believe that wind + solar can supplant coal power in northern Germany, and whose overall opinion of Mr Musk is that he is at best deluded and at worst both a fraud and a horrible human being.


You may be right...or you may not. "I think we're way past that" is wishful thinking rather than demonstrative of....anything.

Let's approach this another way. "Once bitten, twice shy" also is an understandable attitude for humans. And Tesla got bitten pretty badly when Franz twice shattered the CT's windows. But does that give Tesla a pass for not showing any further progress? After all, they have done so with batteries, with AI, with FSD - but not with the truck? That's not a happy observation.

You contradict yourself.
You're entitled to your opinion AudubonB, that doesn't mean I have to agree with it. It seems I have much more confidence in Tesla's abilities now, demonstrative or not, than a Ford engineer did 6 years ago.

Regardless, it will be what it will be. I personally have a very positive view of what Tesla will accomplish in 2023 and beyond and I look forward to it.
 
The headline of this artlicle clearly warned us that the author would be taking a political bent. Then at the end of the first paragagh this anti-EV writer referred to them as go-karts.

Link to article: Left fuels headlong plunge into all-electric vehicles
Interesting article Curt, thanks for posting. In reading what Toyota's CEO has to say, it's becoming increasingly obvious they are going down and hard in the next few years. And honestly, with all the experience they've had with batteries since the introduction of the Prius, I'm really surprised, would have thought they could project the future better than that.
 
All right, you who so promptly flagged with a Disagree: Why? Would you care to elaborate, or did you mistakenly believe this is not a discussion forum, but Twitter?
I didn't give you a disagree however, I do disagree. Why?

Mostly Elon. He's super excited and optimistic about it. The X was always, and clearly a source of stress for him. I predict the only negative on that truck is going to be that damn wiper.
 
There a 2 separate factors here.

1. Cybertruck is clearly designed for off-road use, towing and hauling. It is fairly logical that Tesla would have tested prototypes extensively in those modes.

2. While Cybertruck is designed to be easy to build, it also uses a novel build process, and some issues getting the all new technology to work well for a smooth production ramp would not be surprising.

The quality an functionality of the product will remain, long after any initial production teething problems are forgotten.
I have a lot of trouble with Elon's claim that CT can be used as a boat for short periods. Does he really think that he can seal these things up to withstand a saltwater bath? Why would you go to the trouble to do that for an affordable pickup truck? (Not that it doesn't sound really cool.)
 
Interesting article Curt, thanks for posting. In reading what Toyota's CEO has to say, it's becoming increasingly obvious they are going down and hard in the next few years. And honestly, with all the experience they've had with batteries since the introduction of the Prius, I'm really surprised, would have thought they could project the future better than that.
They are relegating themselves to Corolla makers. And hopefully Tacoma's. Perhaps where they pivot to save their bacon.

They've clearly lost the Camry and the Rav4.

The whole world is flipping upside down. I have faith in Toyota enough to think they'll salvage a major role in the EV future. Or maybe residential stationary storage?
 
  • Funny
Reactions: Artful Dodger
I have a lot of trouble with Elon's claim that CT can be used as a boat for short periods. Does he really think that he can seal these things up to withstand a saltwater bath? Why would you go to the trouble to do that for an affordable pickup truck? (Not that it doesn't sound really cool.)
You don't have to seal it up, just the pack and motors. That's already mostly done.