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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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Wasn't trying to be fear mongering! Just pointing it out, and to say the prudent thing to do right now is just keep the cash!

What's the driving force for not keeping it? To increase the share price? Tesla shouldn't care what the share price is since they won't need to issue any new shares (other than for employee incentives, and they've already changed those to cash as a default).

If there IS a major recession, and Tesla DOES have all that cash, it could aquire some distressed companies that could help it's mission (thinking mining, or massive Service Center expansion from bankrupt dealerships, etc.). But the key is, regardless of unforseen events, if credit markets freeze up, Cash is king and let's you survive any hardship.

The best reason not to hold cash is spelled i n f l a t i o n which some also call devaluation. What this means is that holding cash over time nets less and less buying power. Particularly during times where inflation is going up due to any of a number of reasons.

It is never a good idea to hold large amounts of cash just for the sake of hanging onto it. (excluding "rainy day" money and similar precautions) Buying things is always a better bet than holding a dollar that will buy less tomorrow than it did today. Buying things that appreciate in value, or, that generate more cash are best. I think that a stock buyback has advantages that fall into this category when compared to holding a depreciating asset.
 
Wow, we dropped down to $215, I guess we haven't found the bottom even yet. 😮

Shortzes couldn't budge the SP today, panicked, paid for this FUD hitpiece in Vice.com

Sven Henrich on Twitter: "Hi @elonmusk Is this true? Elon Musk Spoke to Putin Before Tweeting Ukraine Peace Plan: Report" / Twitter

To which Elon replied:


... and the correction never matters (or never comes). Once the ball is rolling downhill, it picks up momentum on its own. Shortzes that never even heard this false story sell when they see the rapid SP movement. They think they don't need to follow the news, in fact they think that's an impediment to their trading.

Shortzes... smh. :p
 
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The best reason not to hold cash is spelled i n f l a t i o n which some also call devaluation. What this means is that holding cash over time nets less and less buying power. Particularly during times where inflation is going up due to any of a number of reasons.

It is never a good idea to hold large amounts of cash just for the sake of hanging onto it. (excluding "rainy day" money and similar precautions) Buying things is always a better bet than holding a dollar that will buy less tomorrow than it did today. Buying things that appreciate in value, or, that generate more cash are best. I think that a stock buyback has advantages that fall into this category when compared to holding a depreciating asset.
T bills yield upward of 3.5%.
18 Billion in cash yield over over $600 million per year.

tesla can use that for cash compensation instead of stock options.
 
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The best reason not to hold cash is spelled i n f l a t i o n which some also call devaluation. What this means is that holding cash over time nets less and less buying power. Particularly during times where inflation is going up due to any of a number of reasons.

It is never a good idea to hold large amounts of cash just for the sake of hanging onto it. (excluding "rainy day" money and similar precautions) Buying things is always a better bet than holding a dollar that will buy less tomorrow than it did today. Buying things that appreciate in value, or, that generate more cash are best. I think that a stock buyback has advantages that fall into this category when compared to holding a depreciating asset.
Cash has huge advantages that can only be explained by pointing out that if you have it when you desperately need it not to collapse - at that point it is priceless. Tesla has not conquered the world yet. Give them two more years, and they may be as unassailable as many people here believe them to be.

FORD had a cash pile of 30 Billion in 2007, was NOT universally hated or targeted for extinction by the status quo, and BARELY made it out without going bankrupt. Why are we all so confident that Tesla's 20 or so B can weather any storm? I STRONGLY disagree. Give me 100B and I will be more open to all kinds of cash leaving the coffers - the new FCF that is coming in that is.

Also, EM seems to be on board with the idea that deflation may just show up. In which case a cash pile looks great!
 
And so it begins...


The first, make that third, in what I expect to be a growing line of manufacturers who will choose to put proven Tesla components in their products.

Edit: modified to "third" after previous Toyota and Mercedes collaborations were cited by @Gigapress
 
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First disagree I think I've had with one of your posts.

Tesla built 2 new Gigafactories, the MegaPack factory, while paying down debt by the tune of 1-2 billion every quarter over the past year and still stayed FCF positive on consistent basis.

It's simple math. If Tesla stayed FCF positive despite those headwinds, then Tesla will post massive FCF going forward.....even if the macro environments deteriorates into a deep recession where Tesla has to drop prices materially.

That's because Tesla has zero new factories in the pipeline. They will announce the site of a new one maybe this quarter. Which means the heavy costs associated with the new Gigafactory won't happen until Q2 2023 at the earliest. More likely Q3 2023.

Tesla has a runway of 3-4 quarters of no new headwinds to FCF growth and in fact has 3 factories (Berlin/Austin/Megapack) that were headwinds to FCC in the past year that are now tailwinds for FCF. It's not out of the realm of possibility that Tesla doubles its cash over the next 4 quarters.

And let's not forget that just because a company announces a buyback doesn't mean they will spend X number of cash right away. They can just announce a stock buyback of 5 billion over the next 4 quarters, starting in Q4. It would be up to Tesla's discretion as to when and how much it buys
Yes they have done that and I think it's very probable 99%+ that this continues. I've shared my financial models and that's what I'm projecting even in my bear case. The risk here is the gigabear case.

Tesla is currently the beneficiary of many positive feedback loops compounding on each other, such as growing demand, growing production, growing brand awareness, growing financial strength, growing gap between cash received and accounts payable, and growing technology lead. I wrote about this in my recent essay on preferential attachment effects and why Tesla's domination is likely to continue for the foreseeable future.

However, those virtuous cycles could unwind in a hurry with sufficiently severe macro problems, especially as Tesla currently has just four car factories, two of which are in the same country and two of which are still ramping up with low production rates right now. We have it really really good right now, especially in the countries TMC members live in. That doesn't mean it's necessarily going to last forever without disruption.

Human history is filled with misery and all manner of crappy things happening, natural disasters, and evil leaders doing evil stuff. If you asked a Roman citizen in AD 180 during the reign of Marcus Aurelius about the prospects for the Roman Empire to continue as they had for the prior 150 years since Augustus, they probably would have laughed off any concerns of risk of collapse. "Semper est Roma," they would say. Yet look what happened. Similar story with the Macedonians, Persians, Mongols, Mayans, Egyptians, Babylonians, Assyrians, Carthaginians, Greeks, Tang, Song, Qin, British, Spanish, French, Dutch, Aztecs, Japanese, Ottomans and many more. The mighty can and do fall. And stuff happens a lot faster now due to globalization and 21st-century technology.
 
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FORD had a cash pile of 30 Billion in 2007, was NOT universally hated or targeted for extinction by the status quo, and BARELY made it out without going bankrupt. Why are we all so confident that Tesla's 20 or so B can weather any storm?

From where I sit, it is mostly because Tesla can and will generate additional cash at a significantly faster rate than can Ford or any other "comparable" company who is paying off debt and has thinner margins on their sales.

How long would it take for Tesla to add 5B or 10B back into the coffers were it used to buy back shares?
 
Yes they have done that and I think it's very probable 99%+ that this continues. I've shared my financial models and that's what I'm projecting even in my bear case. The risk here is the gigabear case.

Tesla is currently the beneficiary of many positive feedback loops compounding on each other, such as growing demand, growing production, growing brand awareness, growing financial strength, growing gap between cash received and accounts payable, and growing technology lead. I wrote about this in my recent essay on preferential attachment effects and why Tesla's domination is likely to continue for the foreseeable future.

However, those virtuous cycles could unwind in a hurry with sufficiently severe macro problems, especially as Tesla currently has just four car factories, two of which are in the same country. We have it really really good right now, especially in the countries TMC members live in. That doesn't mean it's necessarily going to last forever without disruption.

Human history is filled with misery and all manner of crappy things happening, natural disasters, and evil leaders doing evil stuff. If you asked a Roman citizen in AD 180 during the reign of Marcus Aurelius about the prospects for the Roman Empire to continue as they had for the prior 150 years since Augustus, they probably would have laughed off any concerns of risk of collapse. Yet look what happened. Similar story with the Macedonians, Persians, Mongols, Mayans, Egyptians, Babylonians, Assyrians, Carthaginians, Greeks, Tang, Song, Qin, Spanish, Aztecs, Dutch, Japanese and many more. The mighty can and do fall. And stuff happens a lot faster now due to globalization and 21st-century technology.

I've yet to hear one reason doing stock buybacks would be good for Tesla, the business. Maybe increase the stock price for employees, but if there is a recession, they'll be happy they have good jobs and stock that eventually will be worth a lot.
 
Cash has huge advantages that can only be explained by pointing out that if you have it when you desperately need it not to collapse - at that point it is priceless. Tesla has not conquered the world yet. Give them two more years, and they may be as unassailable as many people here believe them to be.

FORD had a cash pile of 30 Billion in 2007, was NOT universally hated or targeted for extinction by the status quo, and BARELY made it out without going bankrupt. Why are we all so confident that Tesla's 20 or so B can weather any storm? I STRONGLY disagree. Give me 100B and I will be more open to all kinds of cash leaving the coffers - the new FCF that is coming in that is.

Also, EM seems to be on board with the idea that deflation may just show up. In which case a cash pile looks great!
Um.........Ford in 2007 : Full year operating loss of 346 million. Net profit margin was negative 1.7%

Jesus man facts. Ford had zero cushion to absorb a recession. It had fixed costs (including a huge impact from Union costs) that it had to continue paying regardless or not of it there was demand. It had zero margin buffer to lower prices.


Btw....I'm not suggesting, and no one here or on Twitter is suggesting Tesla do a stock buyback of 18 billion. Or 15 billion. Or even 10 billion. Tesla could match the stock buy back to the FCF that they bring in every quarter going forward which would easily add up to 10 billion over the next 4 quarters and still have 20 billion in cash for reserves. The excuses for not doing a buyback of any sort has zero merit to me anymore.

And again, no ones saying Tesla do a stock buy back when the stock is at it's high.....or even close to it's high. It's suggesting that Tesla be financially smart and take advantage of markets irrationality, especially when they can see into the future when it comes to their business.
 
Rob Maurer claiming 82,088 produced in Sept


Tesla has set a new production record at Giga Shanghai in the month of September according to data from the China Passenger Car Association (CPCA) acquired by Shareloft. In the first full month of production after completing production upgrades in July and early August, Tesla produced a total of 82,088 vehicles in September which was comprised of 30,257 Model 3 and 51,831 Model Y. Previously, Tesla’s monthly production record was 76,605 vehicles in August.
 
And so it begins...


The first in what I expect to be a growing line of manufacturers who will choose to put proven Tesla components in their products.
This would be the first instance of Tesla selling *just* components to 3rd parties. I'd assume, if true, that Tesla would mention this as a source of future revenue during Q3 earnings.
 
Why are we all so confident that Tesla's 20 or so B can weather any storm? I STRONGLY disagree.

... and you're tilting at windmills. No one has proposed that Tesla buy back $20B in stock. Any share buyback would come out of FCF going forward, or possible with borrowed funds if the terms were favorable.

None of that reduces Tesla's cash position, and the 2nd enhances it if Tesla keeps the buy-backs as Treasury Shares, which can be used as an alternate to cash later after the SP has rallied, per @The Accountant M&A comment.
 
Rob Maurer claiming 82,088 produced in Sept


Tesla has set a new production record at Giga Shanghai in the month of September according to data from the China Passenger Car Association (CPCA) acquired by Shareloft. In the first full month of production after completing production upgrades in July and early August, Tesla produced a total of 82,088 vehicles in September which was comprised of 30,257 Model 3 and 51,831 Model Y. Previously, Tesla’s monthly production record was 76,605 vehicles in August.
Was just about to post this.

Given the production number now combined with the domestic/export numbers, the "Great China demand collapse of 2022"..........is in fact false.

There was maybe 10k cars in transit at Shanghai factory/at docks. Essentially 3 days worth of production. Given the last 2 days of Shanghai's production is impossible to deliver, even locally, we're talking about a day of production that got sent to export instead of domestic.
 
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From where I sit, it is mostly because Tesla can and will generate additional cash at a significantly faster rate than can Ford or any other "comparable" company.
I put my money where my mouth and am currently getting hammered. In my margin account I have been steadily forced to liquidate ancient shares and have been buying LEAPs to try and replace them. I should be one pining for buybacks and criticizing cash flow not properly deployed. I am not.

I came here for electric cars and a renewable future.

Will go down with the ship if I must on this account. Play with fire, burns happen.

Tesla is NOT allowed that option. They matter. I don't.

A severe macro disturbance that takes three to four quarters to play out can still crush this company. All our factories could transform to those cash burning furnaces that EM was bragging about in an eye blink. There is a reason why EM has wiped the debt off the company. He knows the vultures will come for Tesla while still alive and crawling on the desert floor to pluck out the eyeballs.

What is the hurry? Can we see this fantastic cash flow pile up for a while? Then we can brag about it afterwards?
 
... and you're tilting at windmills. No one has proposed that Tesla buy back $20B in stock. Any share buyback would come out of FCF going forward, or possible with borrowed funds if the terms were favorable.

None of that reduces Tesla's cash position, and the 2nd enhances it if Tesla keeps the buy-backs as Treasury Shares, which can be used as an alternate to cash later after the SP has rallied, per @The Accountant M&A comment.
Never wrote that anyone proposed that.

My point is that 20B is not all that much for a company in Tesla's position and enemies.

I appreciate the idea of using TSLA stock as currency, but in the end only cash is king if you need it.
 
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Would you count the earlier projects like the RAV-4 or Smart partnership a decade ago?
Yep, it was a ton of engineering that Tesla was doing to integrate their drivetrain into the 3rd party sub-systems. And yes, it was filled with ridiculousness, but we learned a lot. My buddy ran the Toyota one and the stuff he put up with was waaaaay worse than my 3rd party engineering woes.

According to the article, this is just parts, nothing more. Doesn't even talk about the inverter...so I'm on the fence about if this is true or maybe they are just missing critical details...
 
i_aint_skeered_bumper_sticker.jpg

Just kidding around... ;)