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It's weird - I too am on the left, but am continually disappointed by my "compatriots" hatred for Musk - generally either because they hate cars and love "old school" public transit, or because they hate billionaires. The fact that he's a "celebrity" amps up their inherent dislike to 11.

Musk isn’t doing himself any favors by shooting himself/Tesla/shareholders in the foot. I prefer for him to shut up and let the cars do the talking. His demeanor/actions early on in 2012 was heroic, but he’s making himself look like a donkeys behind lately. I don’t blame people for hating him in such way, it’s up to him to win back his credibility. With that being said he’s done a great deal of good for humanity, which also invites a lot of hatred from a position of jealousy and envy. Elon really needs to have a spin/damage control team working for him. But if he doesn’t listen to them, then it’ll do no good. I guess this is the Musk tax we have to deal with. It’s ashame bc he could have sold a lot more cars if he was likable like in 2012.

Personally I’ve met doctors/physicians who love Musk, and physicians who also don’t trust him. These are smart people and so is Elon, he can win them over if he behaves; otherwise he’ll turn a lot of potential buyers off with his incessant gaffes.
 
It would be ironic if, in what was seemingly setting up to be a disappointing quarter after an underwhelming P&D report a few days ago, this is the quarter that TSLA busts out. SEC issue is laid to rest, FSD demo in a few weeks knocks people's socks off, Tesla demonstrates novel ways of ingesting other car company revenues (i.e. directly via penalty partnerships), and 7,000 M3s start pouring out of Fremont week after week. Time to unleash the Kraken
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I'm thinking the same thing. I'm feeling more and more optimistic since Black Thursday. As they say, it's darkest before the dawn. Time to put on my shades! :cool:
 
I mean, sure, cities. Cities have money. But do you know how long it takes to retrofit brankrupt rural areas? It basically doesn't happen. There are dirt roads which haven't changed much since the days of horse.

Maybe self-driving cars will just never be self-driving in the poor rural areas.

I could see that. "We're going into the backcountry. We need to find someone who knows how to drive manually, do you still know anyone who got that license?"

Yes, I’ve rural lived more than half my life. Love it because nobody is driving the roads so me and my cats can go for a stroll without being worried about getting hit by a city driver.

Relax. It’ll be fine and not your problem since you’ll be worm food by then.
 
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Short term (1-2 Qs) that maybe true (even that I am not sure because we had the tax situation and Model 3 not fully marketed globally yet,) but longer term steady state should be way more. Model 3 is simply the best car for the money in that price range and people will slowly realize that now that large number of them are out - it just might take some time. There are still a lot of BMWs, etc. sold so until that number is significantly reduced, the market for Model 3 will continue to grow. Here is a chart for iPhone vs. Blackberry sales. Saying Model 3 steady state demand is 5k/w is like saying iphone steady state demand was < 10M/Q in 2008 - 2009.
blackberryviphone.jpg
Notice also on that graph the period between 2008 - 2009, where growth dipped was due to the financial crises, great recession. If not for that, the change would have occurred even quicker.
 
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  • Informative
Reactions: neroden
Concerning Tesla demand in Alberta, doing some quick searching, here's the first thing I came to:

Model 3 in Alberta - Tesla Owners Club Alberta



55 vs. 534 and 1881? And yeah, I know Ontario is down now because of the incentive cut, but seriously... 55? So something like 2% of Canada's total after you factor in Quebec and the rest?

Also found this:

Electric vehicles sales update Q2 2018, Canada

Of 14626 PEVs sold in Canada in Q2 '18, only 247 were in Alberta (a "distant fourth"). Manitoba 52, Saskatchewan 22. Trivial numbers. 2% of Canada's total for all three of those provinces combined.

So I'll ask again: are there actually enough Tesla customers there to justify a service centre? Yes, geographic distribution is a factor, but you can't ignore quantities either. Should there be a service centre in the Ross Ice Shelf too? Because of "geographic coverage"?

In Q2 '18 the Model 3 was not being sold yet in Alberta. They were trying to get as many as they could into the hands of Ontarians before their huge incentives were axed. They were also being sold in Vancouver and Quebec IIRC in Q2. I got mine on June 2nd, the second day of deliveries in Alberta. Your numbers are skewed by the focus being pushing Model 3 sales in Ontario.

Now I can't drive anywhere in Alberta with out seeing multiple Teslas en route. If I don't get to the ski hill more than an hour before the lifts open, I can't get a charger at the hill. At a friend's birthday party there were three guests who arrived in their Teslas (I'd never met the other two before).
 
Is this really true? Who sets these prices and based on what? This seems absurd. That really screws us swing traders when Tesla makes huge announcements after the market is closed.

I had similar questions when I first started buying shares, then trading, but as I understand it, the SP is simply set by the price that holder ask when selling and that buyers are prepared to pay - that's the ask/bid numbers you'll see on your brokerage platform.

So indeed, let's say on Monday that the markets open and absolutely nobody is selling or buying $TSLA - not a single share, then it will open at the closing price from Friday - after hours and pre-market don't count (someone correct me if I'm wrong there).

Now if someone decides to sell 1 share of $TSLA for $5000 and someone buys that share, and no other shares are traded, then the SP will then be $5000, if the next person sells one share for $1, then the SP becomes $1. In reality, most people are asking and bidding around the current SP and there are 10's of thousands of trades ongoing most of the time, so this is a highly improbable scenario, but it illustrates the point.

When there's good news, people ask more when selling, the SP goes up. When there's bad news, or in Tesla's case, sometimes really good news, people/bots want to sell quickly, so you get a flood of asks below the the SP, it lowers.

Pre-market and after-hours are annoying because the lower trading can mean the SP can be easily manipulated, which can sometimes spook retail investors to think some bad news is dropping, so they sell at opening, setting a downward trend that can sometimes be difficult to reverse.

With my brokerage, I have limited access to PM/AH, plus I don't seem to be able to trade options at all outside regular market hours. I find it somewhat unfair - not a level playing-field.

Anyway, I'm probably teaching my grandmother to suck eggs here, but such a simple concept took me some time to grasp...
 
Go through Google. Answer a survey question then you can read.

Tesla/FCA are partners in Europe as far as EU is concerned regarding emissions.

Tesla can't sell to VW or Peugeot or anyone else.

Companies had to apply to be partners by March 25,2019. Tesla could have partnered with others but it didn't work out that way.

Toyota and Mazda are also partners pooling their fleets for regulatory purposes.

Cuz we're fratelli
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Does anyone know what happens if the overall pool gets fined for breaching emission limits while Tesla is not in breach of the emission limits? Is Tesla liable to the EU for any fines? I'd expect Tesla to have received indemnifications from FCA to cover this scenario, but any additional info would be useful.
 
OT
I have had my SP since December 2012. Tesla is constantly upgrading and innovating with their vehicles. I had the fastest S that Tesla made for about 3 months. I think it's great that Tesla improved it. I have had the pleasure of driving my SP for years before other early adopters.

So my point is, I worry that the speculation on the "S/X refresh" is designed to Osborn S/X sales now. I read every post about the refresh "coming" as a throwback to the "model year" mindset of the big automakers. The refresh is ALWAYS happening with Tesla. The refresh is here. You will always get the best car they can produce. They will always find ways to improve it for you.

And while I am on my soapbox... these personal attacks of Elon Musk are bull@#it. My own conspiracy theory is that some private investors would love to see Elon take Tesla private. Prodding him to do so with these routine ad hominem attacks would make them a tidy profit. I am pleased Elon has not taken the bait on this...yet

Okay...back to the thread already in progress.

Elon blew the whole take private fiasco in our faces and also dragged us into a fight with the SEC. I don’t want to deal with that crap again. Yes the media has treated him unfairly; but a lot of it was also brought upon himself. I don’t want any more talks of Saudis bailing him out with a take private deal. Another take private tweet and the stock will plummet.
 
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Since rights are proportional, Mr. Musk would have to put in a whole bunch of extra money if he exercised his rights! He'd have to check his personal margin balances.

An interesting scenario. Would Elon prefer to do a rights issue while the SP is low and he intends to subscribe? It would be a cheap way of increasing his % ownership assuming there isn't a 100% subscription rate.
 
I had similar questions when I first started buying shares, then trading, but as I understand it, the SP is simply set by the price that holder ask when selling and that buyers are prepared to pay - that's the ask/bid numbers you'll see on your brokerage platform.

So indeed, let's say on Monday that the markets open and absolutely nobody is selling or buying $TSLA - not a single share, then it will open at the closing price from Friday - after hours and pre-market don't count (someone correct me if I'm wrong there).

Now if someone decides to sell 1 share of $TSLA for $5000 and someone buys that share, and no other shares are traded, then the SP will then be $5000, if the next person sells one share for $1, then the SP becomes $1. In reality, most people are asking and bidding around the current SP and there are 10's of thousands of trades ongoing most of the time, so this is a highly improbable scenario, but it illustrates the point.

When there's good news, people ask more when selling, the SP goes up. When there's bad news, or in Tesla's case, sometimes really good news, people/bots want to sell quickly, so you get a flood of asks below the the SP, it lowers.

Pre-market and after-hours are annoying because the lower trading can mean the SP can be easily manipulated, which can sometimes spook retail investors to think some bad news is dropping, so they sell at opening, setting a downward trend that can sometimes be difficult to reverse.

With my brokerage, I have limited access to PM/AH, plus I don't seem to be able to trade options at all outside regular market hours. I find it somewhat unfair - not a level playing-field.

Anyway, I'm probably teaching my grandmother to suck eggs here, but such a simple concept took me some time to grasp...

A few more details. There's a whole "order book" made up of limit orders, mostly valid for the rest of the day.

A bunch of people have put in limit orders to buy (buy at a price equal to or below $XXX). The "bid" is the highest price in that order book.
A bunch of people have put in limit orders to sell (sell at a price equal to or higher than $XXX). The "ask" is the lowest price in that order book.
Normally the bid is below the ask and the difference is called the "spread".
As soon as the bid crosses the ask... there's a trade to be made!

If you put in a bid over the ask, you get matched with the person offering the ask.
If you put in an ask over the bid, you get matched with the person offering the bid.

If you put in a "market order to buy" you get matched with the person offering the ask at the moment your order goes through.
If you put in a "market order to sell" you get matched with the person offering the bid at the moment your order goes thorugh.

Market makers exist to make bids and asks when nobody else is doing so. They attempt to make money on small movements by taking advantage of the impatience of traders -- selling to a high bid or market order one minute, then buying to a lower ask or market order the next minute -- and they would ideally end up "zeroed out" at the end of the day.

This is how the market is supposed to work. This description ignores front-running, which is illegal but is now endemic (which involves people spying on your trade before you make it and changing the order book to your disadvantage), and "sale of order flow", which enables front-running by deliberately selling your trade information... but then paying you for it, and "dark pools" and "dark trades" which are designed to keep orders hidden and off the order book, and all kinds of other stuff which is either illegal or should be illegal but is endemic.
 
An interesting scenario. Would Elon prefer to do a rights issue while the SP is low and he intends to subscribe? It would be a cheap way of increasing his % ownership assuming there isn't a 100% subscription rate.
Point. I hadn't really thought about it until today, but there are a startling number of weird advantages to a discount rights issue at a lowish SP.
 
An interesting scenario. Would Elon prefer to do a rights issue while the SP is low and he intends to subscribe? It would be a cheap way of increasing his % ownership assuming there isn't a 100% subscription rate.

Elon doesn't have piles of surplus cash to just be throwing around. Most of his assets are already in Tesla, and he hardly wants to lose control over SpaceX. IMHO, the "diluting control over Tesla" issue is surely frequently at the back of his mind when discussions of capital raises via selling stock come up. As for the third biggest company he owns, he definitely doesn't want to take Boring Company public, given how terrible his experience with public companies has been. I guess if he wanted more shares in Tesla he could do something like a private stock swap for Tesla shares, with Boring Company shares. But I'm sure he doesn't want to sell much of Boring Company until it's proven itself and thus earned itself a much higher valuation.
 
Does anyone know what happens if the overall pool gets fined for breaching emission limits while Tesla is not in breach of the emission limits? Is Tesla liable to the EU for any fines? I'd expect Tesla to have received indemnifications from FCA to cover this scenario, but any additional info would be useful.

Is FCA planning to flood Poland,Czechia, Slovakia,Hungary,Romania, and Bulgaria with Ram Cummins 6.8L Turbodiesels?

Tesla is going to sell a *sugar* load of Model 3s in Europe then a *sugar* load x3 of Model Ys.
 
Elon doesn't have piles of surplus cash to just be throwing around.
Yeah, he'd have to check his margin before doing something like a rights offering. A 2% dilution at $250 with a rights offeing would cost him... um... $192.5 million. He could afford it I guess. Basically he'd end up contributing about 22% of any capital raise via a rights offering because he owns 22% of the shares outstanding.
 
With my brokerage, I have limited access to PM/AH, plus I don't seem to be able to trade options at all outside regular market hours. I find it somewhat unfair - not a level playing-field.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but options don't trade in extended hours, except for options on SPY, and some other big index ETFs. And again, I think only for 15 more minutes after market close.

Re stocks, almost all brokers allow you to trade the full after hours, but only few allow the full premarket hours (I think interactive brokers is one), most start at 7am eastern.

Also some brokers (like TDameritrade) allow you to trade some big index ETFs, like SPY, 24 hours -- but I don't think that goes through an exchange, it's within TDameritrade exclusively. They are also considering extending this 24 hour period to some other big volume blue chip stocks, like Apple.
 
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Let me help you with that: look at the share price next Monday when the markets realize Tesla is getting free money thrown at it.

yw

Honestly, I'm actually rather annoyed. ;) I've optimized myself for only a slow climb - sold off my 18 Apr $300s and $320s that were devalued by the deliveries report and bought 17 May calls, then used them to cover sold 12 Apr calls ($300 and $310). This is going to cost me; I'm probably going to have to raise the strike on the $300 calls as a precaution. Will probably pay for it by rolling one or two 17 Mays to a higher strike as well. Would have been far better off sticking with my 18 Apr calls... but almost nobody expected the sort of strong price support we've been getting, and now this... Come on, couldn't this news have broken a couple weeks from now? ;)

At least I'll get to raise the strike on a sold put spread as well. But I keep put spreads far OTM, as they're harder for me to cover.
 
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Elon doesn't have piles of surplus cash to just be throwing around. Most of his assets are already in Tesla, and he hardly wants to lose control over SpaceX. IMHO, the "diluting control over Tesla" issue is surely frequently at the back of his mind when discussions of capital raises via selling stock come up. As for the third biggest company he owns, he definitely doesn't want to take Boring Company public, given how terrible his experience with public companies has been. I guess if he wanted more shares in Tesla he could do something like a private stock swap for Tesla shares, with Boring Company shares. But I'm sure he doesn't want to sell much of Boring Company until it's proven itself and thus earned itself a much higher valuation.

It'd be about $175M for Elon, given $250/share and a 50:1 purchase ratio. Elon could swing this if he wanted.

The more interesting point about this offer IMHO is that it forces short holders (the 25% of shares currently sold short) to buy 2% of TSLA shares at a catastophically low (for them) SP.

@neroden am I anywhere close on the rules for this?

Anyway. I. like. it. :cool:
 
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There’s a dangerous tendency on this forum for any questioning of demand to be treated as a thought crime.

Firstly, in regard to Model S/X demand no such thing happened - here's my prediction of 12k-15k Model S/X deliveries back on January 25:

So yes, falling S/X demand in Q1'19 was entirely predictable and @luvb2b predicted it a number of times.

If the 100D/P100D variants remain the only options for the rest of the quarter, and if China new orders do not make up for the shortfall, then I'd expect Q1 S/X deliveries to be as low as 12-15k units - 55-75% of the 22k deliveries in Q1'2018. That could hit revenue in the $500-$700m range, cash flow in the $150m-$200m range and profits in the $50m-$75m range - assuming that the remaining units sold are high margin, high-trim variants.

I believe the resulting revenue shortfall can be balanced with more Model 3 deliveries at higher ASP, but this requires good execution of cross-continent logistics.

As it happened Tesla didn't introduce a new battery pack beyond the 100D pack and didn't introduce any S/X refresh - they probably knew the demand cliff is too large and wanted those measures to benefit Q2 instead. Cross-continent logistics wasn't entirely hick-up free either.

Deliveries of 12.1k were at the low end of the 12k-15k range I gave.

(Alas my revenue and cash flow shortfall estimates were optimistic: @Doggydogworld's and @luvb2b's latest should be believed instead.)

@neroden has posted his demand model too, predicting a similar Q1 outcome for S/X deliveries.

But in terms of Model 3 demand in the U.S. I mostly agree with you: I have to plead guilty jumping on people who questioned Model 3 demand in the U.S. in good faith. (In my defense most of the time it was not presented in good faith, but by the well known concern trolls who cried wolf in Q2, Q3, Q4 and Q1, until the wolf finally came.)

With all that out of the way, I disagree how you are characterizing what happened in Q1, not because it's a "thought crime", but because I think it's commingling temporary and permanent trends of demand:

Saying demand is peaking doesn’t mean there’s no more demand. It means that overall across all markets there may be limited growth potential in demand for premium M3s. The first differential is approaching zero if you prefer.

I disagree with the "peak" characterization, mainly because it is missing the sophisticated, multi-component nature of Tesla demand:
  1. There's "pent-up demand": delayed demand from past quarters - customers who couldn't buy a Tesla for one reason or another, such as Tesla not selling to them. This group is substantial in size and can be considered a 'piggy bank' of billions of dollars that Tesla can unlock whenever they decide to.
  2. There's "deferred demand": delayed demand from past quarters where customers voluntarily defer buying a Tesla:
    • due to rising economic uncertainty,
    • bad weather and slippery roads with higher risks of fender-benders,
    • or waiting for a refresh or free HW3.
  3. There's "externally triggered pull forward demand": accelerated demand from future quarters where customers accelerate their purchase for various externalities not influenced by Tesla:
    • such as a tax credit expiring,
    • or a business year ending to account a new corporate car as expense against profits and reduce tax obligations.
  4. There's "internally triggered pull forward demand": accelerated demand from future quarters where customers accelerate their purchase for reasons influenced by Tesla, also called 'demand levers':
    • Price reductions,
    • early lease termination offers,
    • OTA update that implements a particularly epic feature that pushes someone over the fence,
    • introduction of a refresh, new battery packs,
    • phasing out an older battery pack or other options, etc.
  5. And finally, there's the steady stream of "base-load or organic demand" of people having to buy a car:
    • New or growing family members make the old car too small.
    • Improving family financials allow a better car.
    • Relocation from one coast to another makes the transportation of the old car uneconomical.
    • Old car breaks down and repairs are not economical anymore.
    • ~3 year lease is expiring.
Firstly, let's note that Q1 deliveries were a sum of all these five main factors of demand, where the non-organic demand is consumed from next quarter's organic demand in a one-time shift of demand.

Such fluctuations happen with every product, for example when the iPhone was still growing and Apple wasn't a trillion dollar company yet. Here's the excellent chart @Do It posted:

blackberryviphone.jpg


Look at the two blockbuster quarters around Q1'2012, and the drop after that. Had you decided that iPhone sales 'peaked' and demand was not sustainable above 20 million unit shipment levels just based on a one-dimensional metric of sum of sales in a quarter, you'd have missed out on a 300%-400% upside in the next 5 years.

Secondly, let's realize how brutal the various temporary demand shifting and organic demand consuming factors were in Q1:
  • Tesla stopped making the most popular S/X model that was 50% of all deliveries, the 75D altogether in Q1 and it was removed from the configurator. This redirected half of the potential Model S/X sales either to the Model 3, to other carmakers, or put them into 'deferred demand' group who might buy in future quarters. While 75D was available in inventory in a number of places and some units are still available, it wasn't well advertised and many people would only buy what is in the configurator.
  • U.S. economic uncertainty was at a peak in late January: the record long government shutdown, China trade war, NASDAQ crash of 30%, worsening housing market numbers together with the 'polar vortex' chilled the U.S. car market to a fair degree. The SEC suing Tesla on February 25 created additional Tesla specific uncertainty.
  • Tesla pulled a number of Model 3 demand levers but didn't pull many S/X demand levers other than the price drops - which are a two edged sword as many people will suspect not a genuine deal but an imminent major refresh.
  • The $7,500 tax cliff was probably very significant pull-forward force in Q4, which consumed Q1 organic demand. Tesla also pulled some S/X demand levers in Q3 and Q4, such as early lease terminations, which consumed Q1 organic demand.
@neroden's demand model expects a bounce-back in S/X organic demand in April-May. Model 3 demand, while much lower than us the bullish estimates I gave, was actually pretty OK in comparison to Q4 and should bounce back in Q2, with the additional pull-forward factor of the $3,750 tax credit ending on June 30.

So yes, Q2 could be a record Model 3 quarter and a healthier S/X quarter with deliveries back into the 20k ± 2k historic Q2 deliveries range.

Finally, let's note that the ceiling for Tesla's organic demand is huge, it's much farther away than Apple was from the ceiling of the premium smartphone market back in 2012:
  • There's over 100,000 car purchases over $35k ASPs in the U.S. alone, every single week.
  • There's over 100,000 similar car purchases in the EU as well over €35k, every single week.
  • There's over 100,000 such purchases in China as well, every single week.
Even 10,000/week would only be scratching the surface of global automotive organic demand in the price range and form factors that Tesla is offering.

There's various indicators that the Model 3 "organic demand" baseline is growing - not the least that it's spring and summer in Europe now, the strongest two seasons for new model sales in Europe.
 
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