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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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Note that while the longevity of a product usually slows down adoption, for cars there's another effect: most customers can delay the purchase of a new car by 2-3 years just fine. So even if EV supply won't be able to keep up with demand, demand for ICE cars will drop significantly, which will increase the percentage of new EVs sold - which will further increase the visible speed of adoption.

Ironically, the demographic group that is forced to buy a new car are young people who starting families, are buying a home, etc. - and those will dominantly prefer EVs.

To me this looks like a potential 'perfect storm' of faster EV adoption than many expect.

Does the Osborne effect affect the period when EVs are about equal in supply to ICEs like the Clean Technica chart implies?

Doesn't this mean the delay in buying a car might only affect the numbers in the middle of the S curve?

Isn't the uptake of EVs mostly going to be limited by supply/battery constraints and the demand curve has little to do with when EVs will reach 90% market share?
 
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The big issue is that Musk abandoned near-term plans to get more than 7000/week Model 3s out of Fremont. Original target was 10000/week. This was a failure, and should be acknowledged as such. If you do the math, with the final rate being 7000/week you just can't get to to 360K-400K Model 3. With the final rate being 10000/week, you can. That was the material change.

Material changes happen so fast he forgets to spell them out. When they built the tent the body language said, “Ultra automation did not work out for us. All statements about process capability have changed. We are doing all we can to meet goals, but don’t know how we are going to land.”
 
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OT


Yeah. I've been telling people this for years. My own alma mater is run by idiots who won't divest, too. Gave them a 14-page fully citationed paper on the topic, they still have fossil fuel investments.

Don't give money to colleges which squander the endowment. Frankly, at any college which is still "invested" in fossil fuel companies, the Trustees should be removed for mismanagement of the endowment, and sued to recover endowment losses out of their personal pockets. But in most states only the state Attorney General has standing to do that, and they're doing other things.

It would be worth it IMO for the Massachusetts Attorney General to sue Harvard's "President and Fellows" over this and force them to return the money which was lost in dud fossil fuel "investments", as well as other money-losing schemes. (Harvard's endowment has performed *extremely* poorly, with *extremely* high extraction of endowment wealth to management fees, in the post-2008 period.) But it won't happen.


The alumni should fix this.
 
I believe most rental car companies only keep their cars for 5 years max, so they don't care. When fully autonomous cars are actually *working*, they'll buy them.

I would think Tesla Supercharging stations and DC fast chargers need to be ubiquitous before rental companies really start investing heavily in adding EVs to their fleet. That way the casual car renter could drive around with the assurance there is quick charging just around the corner like a gas station.

Car rental companies hold onto cars for 2 years MAX. Tesla would also need to provide a heavy fleet discount to companies. Sometimes there is a buyback price guarantee that the manufacturers provide for a one- or two-year hold period, and the cars end up selling at auction if not sold directly by the car rental company like Hertz. I’m not sure Tesla is in a position to have such a program right now.
 
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I think 15-25 years is appropriate for EVs (to go from 10% market share in 2023 to 90% in 2043), which means that by about 2033 half the market will be EVs. Probably there will even be a hard cutoff where ICEs are banned around 2040 in many countries
Hopefully, not 25. The idea behind osborning is that people will wait instead of buying a next ICE.
If they wait, OEMs go bankrupt without sales. Then there will be no ICE cars to last the next 20 years.
While people wait, they may buy a cheap used ICE in case the previous one falls apart. Others, as soon as they have money & EV is available, will gradually convert. All this time, EV production will be going up and help in relieving the pressure.

Also, in case FSD becomes a reality, many people will choose not to buy a next/first car at all and use robotaxis. This may reduce overall demand for cars like 3-5 times.
 
I would think Tesla Supercharging stations and DC fast chargers need to be ubiquitous before rental companies really start investing heavily in adding EVs to their fleet. That way the casual car renter could drive around with the assurance there is quick charging just around the corner like a gas station.

Car rental companies hold onto cars for 2 years MAX. Tesla would also need to provide a heavy fleet discount to companies. Sometimes there is a buyback price guarantee that the manufacturers provide for a one- or two-year hold period, and the cars end up selling at auction if not sold directly by the car rental company like Hertz. I’m not sure Tesla is in a position to have such a program right now.

I think the Robo Taxi service would make a car rental company not want to sell the car back, although Tesla would probably want it back. In my mind that's why Tesla's lease contracts now say that you cannot purchase the car at the end of the lease.

The 2 year lease paperwork not resulting in option to own in my mind means Tesla is very confident in Robo Taxis being on the road by the end of those leases. I know most people don't seem to think it won't be done in 2 years. But it seems like with the lease-to-own not being an option the company has made a pretty aggressive business plan with the plan that it will be working by then.
 
I think the Robo Taxi service would make a car rental company not want to sell the car back, although Tesla would probably want it back. In my mind that's why Tesla's lease contracts now say that you cannot purchase the car at the end of the lease.

The 2 year lease paperwork not resulting in option to own in my mind means Tesla is very confident in Robo Taxis being on the road by the end of those leases. I know most people don't seem to think it won't be done in 2 years. But it seems like with the lease-to-own not being an option the company has made a pretty aggressive business plan with the plan that it will be working by then.

Yes, but don't they also have a couple years to change their mind and say you can buy it after all (if FSD isn't there yet)? Or Tesla could just put them on the CPO market? I don't think we'll know for a while yet whether they will really insist on taking the leased cars back and keep them for the fleet.
 
Yes, but don't they also have a couple years to change their mind and say you can buy it after all (if FSD isn't there yet)? Or Tesla could just put them on the CPO market? I don't think we'll know for a while yet whether they will really insist on taking the leased cars back and keep them for the fleet.

Musk did say that was the reason to the change in the terms of the lease agreement at the autonomy day.
 
Thanks for a positive article Dana: Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

Thats the 2nd positive article in a row for Dana. Something feels different.

Possibilities off the top of my head (feel free too add more)
- the Q2 delivery result was the tipping point for Dana in realizing the TSLAQ trolls were actually full of sh!t. (Seeing as they were all very vocal about how Q2 was going to see worse deliveries than Q1)
- Michael Bloomberg finally heard about what some of his reporters were doing and took action
- Bloomberg has investigative reporters working on a piece about the possible fraudulent activity of the shorts.
 
Thats the 2nd positive article in a row for Dana. Something feels different.

Possibilities off the top of my head (feel free too add more)
- the Q2 delivery result was the tipping point for Dana in realizing the TSLAQ trolls were actually full of sh!t. (Seeing as they were all very vocal about how Q2 was going to see worse deliveries than Q1)
- Michael Bloomberg finally heard about what some of his reporters were doing and took action
- Bloomberg has investigative reporters working on a piece about the possible fraudulent activity of the shorts.

I think you and others are just jumping the gun. Leopard doesn't change its stripes. Just wait for her next hit piece. i am sure it is coming.
 
Tesla has left itself an opportunity to change its mind on the M3 leases. IMO this is a good idea because FSD with no driver is very unlikely for 5-10 years. While the hardware may soon be adequate, I am still skeptical on the software. I admit this is due to my current M3 still reacting to ghosts after a full year. I am constantly on alert for hard braking for no apparent reason. However, even if the software is 10X safer, the vast majority of the country is controlled by rural politics/politicians who will forbid the use of FSD or provide other regulatory impediments. After decades, for example, many areas still do not enforce seat belt laws or other progressive (freedom restricting) laws.
In Nashville which is largely progressive, i expect that there are fewer than 100 HOV tickets per year. I personally have never seen or heard of anyone getting a ticket for HOV violations. And, I see no effort to enforce seat belt use. I expect the rural politicians to react to no one behind the wheel as a limit on freedom and safety. Regulatory approvals will take many years. Just look at Consumer Reports negativism on Tesla AP.
I want FSD and I need it due to my age and declining abilities but I think relying on it from an investment perspective within 5 years iIN MOST OF THE US is foolish. It will come but only after many battles and overwhelming data. I will be thrilled to be wrong.
 
...Leopard doesn't change its stripes...
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Thats the 2nd positive article in a row for Dana. Something feels different.

Possibilities off the top of my head (feel free too add more)
- the Q2 delivery result was the tipping point for Dana in realizing the TSLAQ trolls were actually full of sh!t. (Seeing as they were all very vocal about how Q2 was going to see worse deliveries than Q1)
- Michael Bloomberg finally heard about what some of his reporters were doing and took action
- Bloomberg has investigative reporters working on a piece about the possible fraudulent activity of the shorts.


I hope we are witnessing capitulation. Yes, a tipping point. Not in realising that TSLAQ are full of it. They knew that. But in realising that everybody knows that TSLAQ are full of it, they were fooling nobody and the FUD reporting was serving only to damage their reputation as a news source.
 
I think you and others are just jumping the gun. Leopard doesn't change its stripes. Just wait for her next hit piece. i am sure it is coming.

Its possible, todays article was 100% positive though. Maybe she just didn’t want to land on the wrong side of history..

The shorts are still grasping onto the “demand will fall next quarter we promise!” argument, reeking once again of desperation. Tough to see that delusion lasting much longer as the Y, Semi & solar roof becomes ever closer to production (eg even if there was a very unlikely global drop in model 3 demand in the next few quarters, there are ample new products entering production in 2020 onwards that will lead to far higher revenue and gross margin than what is currently being generated.)
 
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Its possible, todays article was 100% positive though. Maybe she just didn’t want to land on the wrong side of history..

The shorts are still grasping onto the “demand will fall next quarter we promise!” argument, reeking once again of desperation. Tough to see that delusion lasting much longer as the Y, Semi & solar roof becomes ever closer to production (eg even if there was a very unlikely global drop in model 3 demand in the next few quarters, there are ample new products entering production in 2020 onwards that will lead to far higher revenue and gross margin than what is currently being generated.)

Too many confounding variables to tell right now. The Wall St Banks want the stock lifted now to begin the next cycle of shorting (btw, they make their $$ on the churn).

Let's see how fair Dana Hull's reporting is when Tesla is at its next peak, and the bosses want the SP talked down.
 
It is: GAAP expenses are artificially elevated in growth companies.

The best way to visualize it is through the "Amazon story":
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Amazon's annual "Net Income" GAAP profits were well below 1 billion dollars in most years during the first 20 years, and then Amazon became a trillion dollar company.

The cumulative GAAP income during the first 20 years was less than 10 billion dollars - yet how did did Amazon become a 1,000 billion dollars company, 100 times the value of the GAAP profits generated?

What mattered to growth and what was key to reach 1 trillion dollars valuation was not GAAP income but cash generated by operations.

There's several reasons why GAAP expenses are artificially elevated for Tesla (and other growth companies), which means that GAAP profits are artificially lower:
  • Stock-based compensation: this is mostly new TSLA shares issued to employees for stock options, ESPP plans, awards and incentives, etc. - in 2018 this was an over -$800m GAAP expense. Since growth of the company is much higher this is not a problem to shareholders.
  • Depreciation and amortization: Tesla's mostly new equipment gets amortized and depreciated not because it's in danger of being obsolete, but because this is how capex gets recognized in the GAAP space. In 2018 alone this was a -$1.9b GAAP expense (!) - while the real "maintenance capex" that is required to maintain the lifetime of equipment indefinitely is likely around ~$450m. I.e. the GAAP D&A expense is a factor 4 higher than it would be if Tesla wasn't growing so rapidly and there was an extra -$1,450m D&A expense in 2018.
  • Interest expense: while this is a real cash expense, Tesla's debt financed growth model is an artifact of fast expansion as well. In 2018 alone interest payments were around -$675m.
  • R&D investments: this too is a real cash expense, it's not a running cost of the business, but an expense invested into future growth products: Autopilot, AI, FSD chip, Tesla Semi, etc. In 2018 alone R&D expenses were -$1,460m.
  • Higher than optimal cost of goods and SG&A expenses: a rapidly growing company is not executing as optimally as a company that is in steady-state. It's hard to estimate how much of a factor this is, but with a YoY growth rate in the dozens of percentage point, it could easily be as high as 10-20% of CoGs+SG&A. (!) I'm not putting a specific figure to this effect though.
In 2018 GAAP income of Tesla was -$976m, and that was the year that carried most of the costs of the delayed Model 3 expansion. But even in 2018 if we sum up the factors above, there were -$4,385m of GAAP expenses due to Tesla's (self selected) hyper-growth model.

Tesla's underlying business model was wildly profitable, even in 2018, despite the delayed Model 3 ramp-up, and the reported "GAAP loss" was mostly an artifact of very rapid growth.

This is why anti-Tesla pundits try to cast doubt on the growth story, on demand, and try to exaggerate the importance of GAAP profits.

Excellent post!

As a shorthand for anyone who asks me about what I mean about the underlying cash generation of Tesla I usually just point them to the trailing 12 month EBITDA figure, as its usually easy to find on most finance apps/sites. While it doesn’t include all of what you mention above, I think it is a good easy quick starting point.

(For those wondering, EBITDA = Earnings Before Interest Tax Depreciation & Amortization)

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I think the Robo Taxi service would make a car rental company not want to sell the car back, although Tesla would probably want it back. In my mind that's why Tesla's lease contracts now say that you cannot purchase the car at the end of the lease.

The 2 year lease paperwork not resulting in option to own in my mind means Tesla is very confident in Robo Taxis being on the road by the end of those leases. I know most people don't seem to think it won't be done in 2 years. But it seems like with the lease-to-own not being an option the company has made a pretty aggressive business plan with the plan that it will be working by then.

So, you think rental car companies will pivot to becoming something like an Uber/taxi business with the Tesla’s?

One big reason why Tesla doesn’t give an option to buy out the car is because the RV is set so low on the 3 leases. The 3 lease terms are one of the worst I’ve ever seen for cars in this price range. Also the MF is high and they don’t pass through the tax credits. Total cost of a 3-year lease is more than 50% of the car’s price BEFORE even tax credits factored in. How many Tesla’s do you see selling for <= 50% after 36 months?
The numbers work out that Tesla could make more money if they leased a 3 and then sold it through their preowned car program afterwards than selling it outright to begin with.