Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.

It is a bit odd though when all the money in their fund originally comes from oil sales... Kind of a conflict of interest Norway has there, I'd say.

This change was from a financial standpoint not having all eggs in one basket. Since the income for the fund depends on the oil price the risk if it reinvested in other oil based companies would be high. So for financial diversity it make sense to take risk down by investing in other markets.
 
I agree there is going to be a huge demand for EVs, but Tesla is already supply constrained... that is why it's more important to look at the time it takes to ramp up battery and mining supply than looking at it from a demand perspective. The issues Tesla is having with Panasonic not supplying enough batteries, and Elon talking about getting into mining are hints that these are the things which are stopping Tesla from expanding faster. And this is with EV's only taking a few percent of the production share.

When Tesla decided to build the Gigafactory it was clear that without it Tesla could not succeed because there were simply not enough batteries being produced. So they spent 5 years ramping up the Gigafactory.

Now imagine how much more supply constrained the raw materials for batteries are going to become over the next 10 years as EVs start to become mainstream. Tesla is about to face a similar issue with the supply of raw materials as it did for battery supply. There is simply not enough global capacity for both batteries and the raw materials for batteries to support the rate at which EVs will want to grow.

I want EV's to take over the world as much as anyone, but raw materials and battery supply are on the critical path and will take a long time to ramp up (especially over the next 10 years as we enter the steep part of the S curve)

I still think demand is by far the most important consideration. 100% of demand will be for EVs once they are cheaper upfront, in addition to being much cheaper to fuel and maintain, with much longer lifespan (hence lower depreciation) and much higher safety (in addition to not killing millions of people per year from air pollution and contributing to global warming). This threshold has been passed already for sedans priced $40k+, but it should be passed for all vehicles in all regions somewhere between 2023 and 2026 driven by battery and EV powertrain experience cost curves.
As you say, this still leaves a lag before supply can catch up. In this period some consumers will buy ICE cars because all EVs are sold out, while some will defer car purchases causing a decline in overall car sales.
Typically design to mass manufacturing took 5-6 years in the auto industry, but Tesla achieved c.3 years with Model 3. Hopefully it is going to prove with GF3 in China is can go from swamp to mass manufacturing within one year when building an existing model in a new location. Other auto companies are still much slower and resistant to EV commitment, but it should still take less than 5 years to switch all production to EVs once EVs are profitable and once consumers demand them.
Cell supply and raw material supply ramp are potentially the slowest to achieve, however the cell megafactory pipeline for 2028 is already at over 2000gWh and rising rapidly. And hopefully Tesla will again massively speed up the cell ramp process when they take cell production in house in the near future.
Lithium carbonate/hydroxide and EV grade Nickel mines/processing plants are lagging currently. A lithium plant normally takes 6 years+ to get to production, but there are plenty of resources available, all that is missing is capex in mines and plants. If lithium or EV grade Nickel become the only bottleneck to a $3trn+ industry there will rapidly be a huge amount of R&D and capex in building these facilities and researching new methods to produce more cheaply and ramp more quickly.

Probably around $600-800bn capex will be needed to build the battery metal plants, cell, pack, powertrain & car factories from scratch needed for 50 million annual EV production (likely enough for 90%+ of the car market given osborning). This can easily be funded by Tesla, EV startups, battery companies, capital markets, Apple, Amazon etc alone if the current ICE automakers continue to resist, but I'm sure the surviving ICE OEMs will cave in to massive EV investment too eventually.
 
I don't know about this. Especially if they solve autonomy in the next couple of years, I think it's much more likely that the next car after the truck is a car designed specifically to be a robotaxi. I agree that it will be likely be much cheaper, but it'll also be very different from any car out there today. If 80% of robotaxi rides turn out to have <=2 occupants, it'll likely be a 2-seater for example.


Also low top speed (city driving only), no steering wheel, and a big-ass screen for entertainment options
 
This is why I love reading this forum:

Reminder of why the success of the M3 is a game changer for adoption speed:
100k new owners in the $40k price segment per quarter will have a significantly bigger effect than the 25k/quarter rate of $100k car owners that was the norm in 2016, 2017 and 2018.

How cash can get generated for factory construction necessary:
Tesla needs 10 more Gigafactories, and that's best financed through the ~25% of all units sold in the world that generate ~50% of the world's automotive revenue and generate ~75% of the margins: the $40k+ price segment.

Hadn’t dawned on me that Shanghai is perfect for manufacturing M2 (half-sized M3):
But the 'Model 2' is coming! I look for it to be produced at Shanghai GF3/Phase 3 beginning by 2024. I expect it'll feature a 40 kwh bty that's half the size/weight of the Model 3 SR+ bty, seat 4 adults, and be cheaper to buy than a gas car ( < $28K USD).

Addition of extra manufacturing automation for M2 could make it a slam dunk:
I’m pretty sure when Tesla releases a compact car (aka Model 2), they will target the same 25% to 30% margin as on the Model S/X and 3. They probably won’t be able to achieve that until they have realised Alien Dreadnought 1.0 (maybe only when reaching 2.0). But when they achieve that, they will be able to build and sell an order of magnitude more of those cars than Model 3, and that will the ELE (extinction level event - Wiktionary) of the ICE age.

And if you think battery raw materials and manufacturing capacity will constrain the cutover and ELE, maybe not.
Probably around $600-800bn capex will be needed to build the battery metal plants, cell, pack, powertrain & car factories from scratch needed for 50 million annual EV production (likely enough for 90%+ of the car market given osborning). This can easily be funded by Tesla, EV startups, battery companies, capital markets, Apple, Amazon etc alone if the current ICE automakers continue to resist, but I'm sure the surviving ICE OEMs will cave in to massive EV investment too eventually.
 
EVs can have lower TCO, but will not be cheaper upfront. The exception is places that change the end-price equation with heavy ICE taxes and/or EV subsidies (e.g. Norway).

It's only a matter of time before EV's are cheaper than fossil cars, even without considering the cost of operation. They are much easier to manufacture, all it takes if for the cost curve of batteries to continue to decline at the same rate.
 
This is why I love reading this forum:

Reminder of why the success of the M3 is a game changer for adoption speed:


How cash can get generated for factory construction necessary:


Hadn’t dawned on me that Shanghai is perfect for manufacturing M2 (half-sized M3):


Addition of extra manufacturing automation for M2 could make it a slam dunk:


And if you think battery raw materials and manufacturing capacity will constrain the cutover and ELE, maybe not.
The M2 will not be half sized but more like 2/3. It will be Yaris sized and have DBE batteries and a steel roof. It will probably be $25k but could go as low as $20k. Made in China will help. but it could be made in the USA and sold for a fair price as well. Of course the demand will be low in the USA and higher elsewhere so it will probably be made in Asia or Europe first.
 
EVs can have lower TCO, but will not be cheaper upfront. The exception is places that change the end-price equation with heavy ICE taxes and/or EV subsidies (e.g. Norway).
No sure why you think this way. A Tesla Model 3 is already cheaper up front than a comparable ICE car. Look at BMW M2 vs Model 3 performance for example. The Tesla is almost 3 grand cheaper. It's larger, has 4 doors, and outperforms the M2.
 
The M2 will not be half sized but more like 2/3. It will be Yaris sized and have DBE batteries and a steel roof. It will probably be $25k but could go as low as $20k. Made in China will help. but it could be made in the USA and sold for a fair price as well. Of course the demand will be low in the USA and higher elsewhere so it will probably be made in Asia or Europe first.
Mostly agree, but it will likely have a glass roof because a glass roof is stronger and safer.
 
The M2 will not be half sized but more like 2/3. It will be Yaris sized and have DBE batteries and a steel roof. It will probably be $25k but could go as low as $20k. Made in China will help. but it could be made in the USA and sold for a fair price as well. Of course the demand will be low in the USA and higher elsewhere so it will probably be made in Asia or Europe first.
See, I would rather that Tesla leave this segment to someone else, or at the least have it be dead last in their priority list. Tesla is known for stylish, high-performance, long-range electric vehicles. An “M2” needs none of that. Even FCA can build an electric urbanbox.

Tesla should aim at the markets with the biggest polluters and the most potential buyers in its home country - SUV, pickup and semi (!).

Edit: I forgot PowerWalls/Grid Storage. In a battery-constrained world, I would definitely rank this way higher than M2.
 
Last edited:
Slightly OT for information only, because I haven't seen it posted:

Bjørn Nyland (Teslabjorn), along with two other drivers, are currently attempting to break the world EV 24h distance record on the Autobahn in Germany -- you can watch live here.

They are using a Model 3 LR AWD (not his) and Ionity chargers, which allow them to top up at about 184kW. They run on a loop N-S on the A20 and recharge every hour or so, going between 6-8% and 60% SOC. They started last evening at 10pm local time (CEST) and will conclude at 10pm tonight. The current record stands at 2644km, and they seem to be slightly ahead of that on a km/h basis incl. charging.

If they can break the record, hopefully it gets picked up in the media and it's one extra nail in the coffin of "you can't road-trip in an EV".
 
See, I would rather that Tesla leave this segment to someone else, or at the least have it be dead last in their priority list. Tesla is known for stylish, high-performance, long-range electric vehicles. An “M2” needs none of that. Even FCA can build an electric urbanbox.

Tesla should aim at the markets with the biggest polluters and the most potential buyers in its home country - SUV, pickup and semi (!).

Edit: I forgot PowerWalls/Grid Storage. In a battery-constrained world, I would definitely rank this way higher than M2.
They could go for small crossover/suv targeting the luxury segment. Model Y is probably similar to the BMW X3 so they could target something for the BMW X1.

It would fit well with their planned lineup and not have to chase down into low margin vehicles.
 
  • Helpful
Reactions: VValleyEV
I agree there is going to be a huge demand for EVs, but Tesla is already supply constrained... that is why it's more important to look at the time it takes to ramp up battery and mining supply than looking at it from a demand perspective. The issues Tesla is having with Panasonic not supplying enough batteries, and Elon talking about getting into mining are hints that these are the things which are stopping Tesla from expanding faster. And this is with EV's only taking a few percent of the production share.

When Tesla decided to build the Gigafactory it was clear that without it Tesla could not succeed because there were simply not enough batteries being produced. So they spent 5 years ramping up the Gigafactory.

Now imagine how much more supply constrained the raw materials for batteries are going to become over the next 10 years as EVs start to become mainstream. Tesla is about to face a similar issue with the supply of raw materials as it did for battery supply. There is simply not enough global capacity for both batteries and the raw materials for batteries to support the rate at which EVs will want to grow.

I want EV's to take over the world as much as anyone, but raw materials and battery supply are on the critical path and will take a long time to ramp up (especially over the next 10 years as we enter the steep part of the S curve)
Is this Peterson jr? Are you referring to the “rare element lithium”, nickel. Tesla constraint is not raw materials but using them to build batteries. Before I get comments my referring to lithium and nickel as rare is meant sarcastically
 
Bjorn is not dumb but shouldn't he be using a LR RWD for this application? :confused:

Others have suggested the same. I believe the car they're using was offered for this attempt as a form of sponsorship by a company, but I don't know the details.

Later edit: there are more details of this attempt in a short (by Bjørn's standards) video posted on his main channel yesterday before they started.
 
Last edited: