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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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Trump is expected to make some kind of announcement on European trade as well later today. Given what he did yesterday and his will to bend the FED, it makes sense to be pessimistic about it. This may create retaliation from the EU, involving the automotive sector...then TSLA.
I really hope this is a bear trap, but it seems we live in bullyland now, and it is getting crazier out there...
 
Christ...people still claiming dividends are optional. This is just not correct economic theory. if you buy shares in a stock not because it will EVER (before the heat death of the universe) pay a dividend back to the stockholders, but PURELY because you think the value will go up and you can then sell it eventually to someone who will pay more...
thats a ponzi scheme. Literally. it *is* the absolute definition of it. Its like tulipmania,
Whats the rationale for the person who buys the stock from you when you want to 'cash in'? that they can offload it to another...and another... this is musical chairs, and not stock investment.

I think TSLA is an awesome investment and I don't want dividends before 2030, but I value the stock highly BECAUSE I believe they will be able to pay staggeringly high dividends in 2030. I'm an investor, not a 'trader' or a gambler.
I think you're missing something here. What about Berkshire Hathaway then?

What about companies that never pay dividends, but generates boatloads of cash and continuing growing their cash pile? If you sell the stock of this company to some other investor, it's not a Ponzi-scheme. You can simply ask, what would someone or some entity pay per share to take this entire company private. That individual or entity would most certainly NOT be buying a Ponzi scheme. They are buying a company which is generating tons of cash for them. What they do with that cash is their business: pay themselves a dividend/income, re-invest it, or simply hoard it in the company's coffers. The moral is that it is not about dividends, but (future) cash flow and profits.
 
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Well that’s the thing. Zen, as in zenith, lies somewhere north of 350 should a squeeze occur. Who knows where it reverses course. I can’t imagine too many on this forum resisting a sell order if it reached 400. The waters are infested with traders.
I'm one of those that you can't imagine. The stock, were it not for the capping manipulation, could be changing hands at $500 without being overvalued, in the least.
This type of short-term approach you are describing is fear-and-greed in spades. And it's the reason why the majority of the people on this board will never attain wealth through long term capital appreciation.
 
Christ...people still claiming dividends are optional. This is just not correct economic theory. if you buy shares in a stock not because it will EVER (before the heat death of the universe) pay a dividend back to the stockholders, but PURELY because you think the value will go up and you can then sell it eventually to someone who will pay more...
thats a ponzi scheme. Literally. it *is* the absolute definition of it. Its like tulipmania,
Whats the rationale for the person who buys the stock from you when you want to 'cash in'? that they can offload it to another...and another... this is musical chairs, and not stock investment.

I think TSLA is an awesome investment and I don't want dividends before 2030, but I value the stock highly BECAUSE I believe they will be able to pay staggeringly high dividends in 2030. I'm an investor, not a 'trader' or a gambler.

I'm sorry but you are completely wrong. The dividend discount model was never an economic theory, its just a sometimes useful rule of thumb.
All methods of valuing stocks have fairly obvious flaws, but the shortcomings of the dividend discount model (which is just one of very many different models used by investors) are particularly obvious.
DDM is just a rule of thumb which can sometimes be useful as it can have some correlation to a company's real value, but this is just because there is some correlation between a company's cash generation ability and its level of dividends. The creators of the model didn't think that the only way anything in the world can have value is if it is paying dividends. Borrowing money to increase dividends on a cash burning company with no growth obviously shouldn't increase the value of that company. Similarly reducing dividends to invest in high return capex and R&D projects shouldn't lower a company's value.

You can even buy zero coupon bonds. These do not pay any interest or "dividend". They are sold at a discount and redeemed at par in several years time - investors profit from the capital appreciation, not from a dividend. If your economic theory values these bonds at zero you clearly need to consider where there's a flaw in your reasoning.
Similarly, your economic theory would value $s at zero. These do not pay a dividend. The value in $s is in people's trust in the future value of the USD and in the US government's ability to collect taxes. A company's value is in people's trust in the company's future cash generation ability - this is often correlated to the company's future level of dividends, but it doesn't have to be.
 
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I'm one of those that you can't imagine. The stock, were it not for the capping manipulation, could be changing hands at $500 without being overvalued, in the least.
This type of short-term approach you are describing is fear-and-greed in spades. And it's the reason why the majority of the people on this board will never attain wealth through long term capital appreciation.

Add me to that list. Call me crazy if you want, but I wouldn't sell my shares for 1,000$ per share today. Unless I could just re-buy 4-5x as many shares @ current stock price ofc.
 
Christ...people still claiming dividends are optional. This is just not correct economic theory. if you buy shares in a stock not because it will EVER (before the heat death of the universe) pay a dividend back to the stockholders, but PURELY because you think the value will go up and you can then sell it eventually to someone who will pay more...
thats a ponzi scheme. Literally. it *is* the absolute definition of it. Its like tulipmania,
Whats the rationale for the person who buys the stock from you when you want to 'cash in'? that they can offload it to another...and another... this is musical chairs, and not stock investment.

I think TSLA is an awesome investment and I don't want dividends before 2030, but I value the stock highly BECAUSE I believe they will be able to pay staggeringly high dividends in 2030. I'm an investor, not a 'trader' or a gambler.

ROI is what matters. In a growth story, the ROI happens with the appreciation of the SP.
Some people prefer stable, low risk dividend paying stocks - others prefer high growth stocks.

If in couple of years I can cash out at $1000+, once dividends payout starts - I will have option to either sell at 4-5x cost, or stick around for dividends. Once dividend payout starts, some one else (low risk Index fund) .. might value it more, but I might not - and might see better opportunity to invest my monies in another growth stock that does not pay dividends. ..cheers!!

(it's the non SP appreciation and no dividend scenario that I am worried about :) )
 
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Nice first post!
 
Add me to that list. Call me crazy if you want, but I wouldn't sell my shares for 1,000$ per share today. Unless I could just re-buy 4-5x as many shares @ current stock price ofc.

Same here, only selling at that price in the event of a short squeeze, for which I have existing sell orders already placed.

Should the SP just go up "normally", I cancel the lower orders and put one above my highest.

A short squeeze to $2k would be sweet, could then re-buy a might larger position, but I wouldn't be cashing out.
 
Same here, only selling at that price in the event of a short squeeze, for which I have existing sell orders already placed.

Should the SP just go up "normally", I cancel the lower orders and put one above my highest.

A short squeeze to $2k would be sweet, could then re-buy a might larger position, but I wouldn't be cashing out.

I would be (edit) interested in cashing out at $2k, even if it was a tomorrow thing. At least some of my stock hoard. I'm not interested in dividends, I'm interested in a higher sell price than what I paid for it.
 
Thanks. Feel free to disseminate and source myself for the chart, and InsideEVs for the sales figure data.
If you're good with infographics, create a twitter account and blog, and post stuff like this. Would really help fight the FUD.

Also, pretty sure that other news sites would start linking your stuff. Win, win (for you and Tesla).
 
I'm sorry but you are completely wrong. The dividend discount model was never an economic theory, its just a sometimes useful rule of thumb.
All methods of valuing stocks have fairly obvious flaws, but the shortcomings of the dividend discount model (which is just one of very many different models used by investors) are particularly obvious.
DDM is just a rule of thumb which can sometimes be useful as it can have some correlation to a company's real value, but this is just because there is some correlation between a company's cash generation ability and its level of dividends. The creators of the model didn't think that the only way anything in the world can have value is if it is paying dividends. Borrowing money to increase dividends on a cash burning company with no growth obviously shouldn't increase the value of that company. Similarly reducing dividends to invest in high return capex and R&D projects shouldn't lower a company's value.

You can even buy zero coupon bonds. These do not pay any interest or "dividend". They are sold at a discount and redeemed at par in several years time - investors profit from the capital appreciation, not from a dividend. If your economic theory values these bonds at zero you clearly need to consider where there's a flaw in your reasoning.
Similarly, your economic theory would value $s at zero. These do not pay a dividend. The value in $s is in people's trust in the future value of the USD and in the US government's ability to collect taxes. A company's value is in people's trust in the company's future cash generation ability - this is often correlated to the company's future level of dividends, but it doesn't have to be.

I think it's worth explaining my thoughts on a CEO's choice of optimal use of capital and its impact to share price.

From a fundamental perspective, generally a company has 5 main choices for use of pre growth cash generation towards the best interests of its shareholders:

1. Invest in growth R&D or capex (or cost saving programs).
2. Make acquisitions. Do this if you think M&A targets will make a larger return on capital than your own R&D or capex programs.
3. Build a cash stock pile. Do this if you don’t currently see R&D/capex or acquisition opportunities that have a greater return on capital than your current business, but you think these might arise in the future.
4. Make share buybacks. Do this if you think your company’s current portfolio of businesses will make a greater return on capital at current prices than in-house growth projects or M&A.
5. Pay dividends. Do this if you think investors can make a better return on capital elsewhere than they can in your own company or you can with growth or M&A.

Aside from the fundamental considerations regarding the optimum use of capital, the CEO’s choice between these options also takes into account the non-fundamental impact this will have on the company’s share price.

Nobody knows the true value of a company. Each investor has their own preferred valuation methodology and their own model of the company’s future results.
The price of a company is just the equilibrium point where each individual investor’s fair value estimate is at least the current share price (within this there will be a large distribution of fair value estimates, x% of investors at +0-10% of current price, y% at +20-50%, z% at +50-100% etc). The price can change due to fundamental improvements in the company’s fortunes – leading to individual investors increasing their fair value estimates and leading to a new equilibrium. But price could also change because the pool of aware or eligible investors increases, leading to a new higher price equilibrium despite the fact that existing investors haven’t increased their own fair values.
Some investors can only invest in stocks paying dividends, sometimes due to need for regular income (however in reality regular income can just as easily be provided by an annual disposal of shares), sometimes due to Fund mandate requirements and sometimes due to a dogmatic belief in the DDM.
For this reason, a company can increase the pool of investors by announcing dividends, thus expecting to increase the price of the stock without actually increasing the fundamental value of the business. This is often a consideration in a company’s choice to pay dividends – even if it is not an optimal use of capital.
 
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