Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[Prunesquallor]

Here are the Lap Times for production, street-legal vehicles at Nürburgring
List of Nürburgring Nordschleife lap times - Wikipedia
The Taycan lap time was 7:42 by a professional driver. It will be interesting on how much better the Model S will do.

Here is a video of a Shanghai Tesla owner taking his Tesla Model 3 Performance to Nurburgring without Track mode enable. He came in at a respectable 9:00 (considering he is not a professional driver).

This video cracks me up. These guys are laughing and playing chill music while they’re racing.

 

[KarenRei]

Do you have a link to Tesla's job ad? The link in Elecktrik's article was broken, and searching Tesla's site with a few different keywords from the article did not turn up a matching job ad. TIA.

Cheers!

All we know of the ads were that the Fremont one included:

Tesla is currently seeking a Technician for a manufacturing line we are developing. You’ll be part of a new product line we are developing.

And the Colorado one was:

We are looking for an Engineering Technician to assist anode development and optimization R&D. Candidates should be familiar with Li-ion cell chemistry and have experience building and assembling cells for performance testing. This candidate will be a key member of a cross-functional product development team. This job includes the fabrication of laboratory scale Li-ion anodes, electrode processing, laboratory scale Li-ion cell builds, and data analysis. The primary responsibilities of this position will be to assist in experimental planning and to carry out experiments and analysis.

I've found that in the past, the job ads disappear pretty quickly from Tesla's site when they're reported on and linked to - whether that's due to not wanting the publicity, or simply filling the jobs, I don't know.

 

[humbaba]

Here are the Lap Times for production, street-legal vehicles at Nürburgring
List of Nürburgring Nordschleife lap times - Wikipedia
The Taycan lap time was 7:42 by a professional driver. It will be interesting on how much better the Model S will do.

Here is a video of a Shanghai Tesla owner taking his Tesla Model 3 Performance to Nurburgring without Track mode enable. He came in at a respectable 9:00 (considering he is not a professional driver).

So... no track mode, not a professional driver, and frequently obstructed by slower traffic. I think there's no doubt that a professional driver in a raven demoing a new Model S track mode on an open track could vastly improve on his time. I'm assuming that when a company puts a car on Nürburgring for a time run they don't have to contend with other vehicles?

TBH, a 1:18 improvement (~17%) doesn't seem like any kind of stretch at all considering the differences.

 

[mongo]

OT

My understanding is that the car has full 270 kW charge power on 800 volt systems whether or not you buy this module. And, my understanding is that if you don't buy this module, you get 50 kW charging on 400 volt chargers. If you do, you get 150 kW.

How could that be anything other than a DC-DC boost converter (specifically, two different ones, and the 150 kW option gives you a bigger one), given that? I guess they could've used cheaper contactors that can't handle high current for the 400 volt DCFC configuration, but you'd still need the high current contactors for supplying the car, which would mean the car normally runs at 800 V...

Ah, that makes sense. I was thinking the car only did 150kW max, and the low option was 75kW. Still, that is a lot of heat to dissipate, maybe the cost includes extra radiator capacity..

Edit: or I'm thinking backwards and this turns the 800V pack into a 400V load so they don't need a boost converter at all?

You're missing one of the most important reasons why Tesla is adopting SRPM motors: the torque vs. rpm limits associated with AC induction motors (as per your chart).

Switched Reluctance Permanent Magnet (SRPM) motors do not suffer from the back-EMF effects that limit rpm in AC motors. Indeed, in laboratories switched reluctance motors have run up to 500K to 750K rpm.

Ask yourself how Tesla is able to achieve a 250+ mph top speed AND a 8.9 sec Quarter Mile time for the Roadster 2 with one configuration WITHOUT a multispeed gearbox?

The answer is simple: SRPM motors aren't rpm limit due to back EMF. I think the simplicity of this fact is the reason few people around here understand it. But Elon isn't simple like that. He's foremost a scientist and an engineer, like this:

The case for switched reluctance motors

"Torque production is unaffected by motor speed. This is unlike ac motors where, in the field-weakening region, rotor current increasingly lags behind the rotating field as motor rpm rises."
That's how Elon rolls. And that's why Tesla's rule.

Cheers!

Yeah it;s interesting, SR have Back-EMF, but they can output more power at the high end:
http://users.encs.concordia.ca/~pillay/c43.pdf

Even with the same AC Induction motors, Roadster could hit 250 MPH by decreasing the gear ratio in the drive units and offsetting the loss in wheel torque by adding another motor. 2x the motors X 1/2 the gear ratio = same low end torque and double the top end speed (ignoring aero and assuming twice the battery pack power (which it has))

 

[mrdoubleb]

As alluded to by others, I feel Porsche Taycan has been the best thing to happen to Tesla for a while. Despite the general media pitching it as finally taking the fight to Tesla, the reality is that anyone who's not a complete Porsche convert, is laughing their asses off.

After sleeping on it, I'm 101% certain that Model S will beat the Taycan time on Nürburgring next week. Otherwise, the easier and less risky approach would have been to make the attempt, film it all, but then just don't tell anyone if it fails. By announcing in advance i think it's in the bag.

And yes, I'd love to see Nico Rosberg as the driver or Leillani - Nico was F1 champ though and blindingly fast. Bot sure if Nico still has affiliations with Mercedes...?

Nico is regularly testing cars (and driving Teslas) on his youtube channel so I don`t think there is any contract from Mercedes preventing him. In fact, if he can film this for his channel I am pretty sure he would be on-board. Would be awesome. Nothing against Leillani, but as a former F1 World Champion and current youtuber, I think Nico has better global name recognition.

 

[KarenRei]

My understanding is that the car has full 270 kW charge power on 800 volt systems whether or not you buy this module. And, my understanding is that if you don't buy this module, you get 50 kW charging on 400 volt chargers. If you do, you get 150 kW.

That doesn't make sense. 800V systems would double the power over 400V. 270kW ~= 2 * 150kW (account for some fudge factors). Clearly you need nearly 150kW at 400V if you're to be able to get nearly 300kW at 800V.

 

[willow_hiller]

TBH, a 1:18 improvement (~17%) doesn't seem like any kind of stretch at all considering the differences.

A non-professional is already claiming an 8 minute lap on the ring in a P3D: Model S to the Nürburgring Next Week!

I think a Raven S with a professional driver could pull it off.

 

[FreqFlyer]

It would be an even greater marketing stunt if Tesla beat the Taycan's time without a driver. The lack of a driver would even help with lower weight.

You may be on to something. What better way to advertise Autopilot. That will send the SP up.

 

[Artful Dodger]

Even with the same AC Induction motors, Roadster could hit 250 MPH by decreasing the gear ratio in the drive units and offsetting the loss in wheel torque by adding another motor.

But then the Roadster 2 couldn't have demo'd repeated 0-70 mph windsprints for over an hour at the reveal event. They did perhaps 50 test rides back2back? An AC motor (or 3) would have melted under that duty cycle.

No, Elon selected the SRPM design years ago for its superior characteristics. He's an excellent engineer.

Cheers!

 

[humbaba]

You may be on to something. What better way to advertise Autopilot. That will send the SP up.

Meh. Autopilot on a closed loop track? What does that prove? Autopilot without interventions from coast to coast? Yeah, that'd be something to see.

And that's rather the point: driving without any other traffic, obstructions, hazards, etc., is easy. Doing it on a track only pushes the envelope for taking sensor data and experienced road performance, but even if Tesla did that everyone would assume that it had been done by hard coding each curve, straightaway, etc.

The point of doing the ring is that a production car that you can buy now will run it better than the Taycan. And, despite the timing, I think this might be somewhat independent of Porsche's claim. If it is in fact going to demo a Model S track mode then Tesla didn't start on it yesterday. Most likely they've been working on it after they polished the Model 3 track mode and had pre-production ravens to test with.

 

[mrmage]

• increase the regen rate, this both helps keep the friction brakes cooler, and keeps the state of charge higher, plus gives less cooling workload to the cooling system,
• temporarily allow higher power to the motors, if the thermal sensors allow it,
• over-chill the battery pack and the rest of the powertrain when there's excess cooling capacity, in anticipation of bigger pulses of thermal load,

Sounds like a good use case for an ultracapacitor.

 

[Unpilot]

Sounds like an ideal use case for an ultracapacitor.

Please for all that is good in the world...NO...don't start this one again!!!

 

[WarpedOne]

Putting in a 150kW boost converter is possible, but a reallly poor engineering choice. Even at 97% efficiency, that's an extra 5kW of heat output. Nearly equal to the Tesla cabin heater.

Here's my hypothesis: the car really runs on 400V. This module is the set of 3 additional contactors needed to electrically switch the packs from two parallel block into two series blocks. Thus getting twice the power ftom the same charge cable by doubling the voltage.

Where did you get that power map from?
...

That 'power map' is mine.
I've made it in 2013 when Model S Performance came out and Tesla still listed the RPM of max power and torque.
Since then it took its life in its own hands, poping up all over the internet. Also Fred used it in hist article from 2017.

I've even managed to find my original post with that chart, it is still there: The real top speed of the Model S

 

[LN1_Casey]

All we know of the ads were that the Fremont one included:

Tesla is currently seeking a Technician for a manufacturing line we are developing. You’ll be part of a new product line we are developing.

And the Colorado one was:

We are looking for an Engineering Technician to assist anode development and optimization R&D. Candidates should be familiar with Li-ion cell chemistry and have experience building and assembling cells for performance testing. This candidate will be a key member of a cross-functional product development team. This job includes the fabrication of laboratory scale Li-ion anodes, electrode processing, laboratory scale Li-ion cell builds, and data analysis. The primary responsibilities of this position will be to assist in experimental planning and to carry out experiments and analysis.

I've found that in the past, the job ads disappear pretty quickly from Tesla's site when they're reported on and linked to - whether that's due to not wanting the publicity, or simply filling the jobs, I don't know.

My guess is that all Tesla jobs fill fairly quickly. The free advertisement of certain, usually niche type jobs probably greatly helps this. Before, the candidate may not have been aware of the position, or was looking for a new job. But then they read that something at Tesla is open, and jump for it.

 

[dc_h]

I was talking about Europe only. The only new market there is the UK, which already had deliveries in July. So I think my method of extrapolating the July (complete including UK)+August (partly) to the whole of the quarter for a conservative estimate and adding 1000 for the bull case was sensible.

However: Today we got hard numbers and boy, was I wrong - seems like Model 3 deliveries in UK picked way up. July: 440, August: 2082 ! (Update: I realize I´m late to the party...) Disclaimer: Model 3 is not listed by its name in the data from SMMT, but called "other". But the other imports also listed for the brands is up accordingly, and that is what we have been using successfully for estmating Tesla numbers for a while.

Tesla Model 3 was August's third best-selling car

Based on deliveries so far, it does seem that Europe will be over 25,000 for the Q. I have been a little OCD on this the last week. Interestingly the loading time in SFO for Europe was 19.3 days this quarter and 38 combined for Q1 and Q2, so that is consistent with repeating the 22,700 deliveries. I think they started getting more efficient in Q2, which only had 15.4 loading days. At this point in the quarter they have 10,600 deliveries to Europe, but only about 2.5 ships unloaded and distributed. The 3rd ship hit Zeebrudge yesterday, the 4th (Glovis Sunlight) is due in a week, the 5th, a shipment from Philly and the 6th (Glovis Courage) should arrive on the 20th.
To simplify, they have less then 3 ships distributed, over 10,600 delivered, as of August 31st and 4 more ships of cars to deliver.They should be well past 12,000 delivered by now and should have close to 15,000 more at Zeebrudge now or due by the 20th. As a bonus, they should start the 4th quarter with more inventory then Q3 and perhaps run consistent east coast deliveries to the UK in Q4.

 

[PaulusdB]

Nico is regularly testing cars (and driving Teslas) on his youtube channel so I don`t think there is any contract from Mercedes preventing him. In fact, if he can film this for his channel I am pretty sure he would be on-board. Would be awesome. Nothing against Leilani, but as a former F1 World Champion and current youtuber, I think Nico has better global name recognition.

Unless Tesla is to simultaneously debut the vegan steering wheel option for Model S...

 

[Webeevdrivers]

Unless Tesla is to simultaneously debut the vegan steering wheel option for Model S...

With all this attention to steering wheels I Wonder if the model 3 will be available with a heated steering wheel now.

 

[mrmage]

Please for all that is good in the world...NO...don't start this one again!!!

I didn’t follow the Maxwell discussion too closely wrt capacitors because I didn’t see the cost benefits for normal driving. Did someone already bring up their applicability for racing applications?

On a twisty track it seems like it could make a difference. Extreme and frequent regen/discharge cycles. I haven’t done the math but it seems like they could help.

 

[EVNow]

Indeed, but Labour and Lib Dems risk splitting the remain vote, so might be a good idea if they enter into a pact. Note that the idiot Farrage has also suggested a Tory/Brexit pact to BJ.

TBH, these days I don't see much air between the Tory and Brexit parties anyway.

Opposition parties to reject PM election move

UK opposition parties have agreed not to back Boris Johnson's demand for a general election before the EU summit in mid-October​

 

[anthonyj]

Predictable dump to kill all the options. That’s what this stock has turned out to be. A place where dummies gamble on weekly options, and market makers pin the price every Friday to kill them all. Stock gets pounded every time it’s about to breakout. Need more long-term thinkers to buy