Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[OPRCE]

You know, I'm tired of dancing around the "buts" and "maybes" and "what ifs". Let's just call it as it is: Porsche and Audi are willingly frying their cells, because most people won't fast charge that often and they can afford to eat the warranty costs on those who do.

There is no other explanation that meets Occam's Razor. There is no magic cell that somehow only they have that nobody else has heard of, that manages to be simultaneously energy dense and power dense. Their cooling design is primitive. They're not "locking out" half of the pack to make the C-rate appear faster than it is.

Let's call a spade a spade: they're frying their cells.

You're doing the razor wrong:
Audi e-Tron 95kWh battery weighs 700kg, compared to 590kg for Tesla 100D, so it is obviously less energy dense.
However, it recharges at about twice the rate, so seems to have a much better power density.

 

[lklundin]

It is also imaginable that Audi/Porsche's NCM-611 cells generate significantly less waste heat per unit power than Tesla's NCA chemistry

Excuse me, but normally the three digits following the triplet chemical makeup of the electrode denote how many tenths each part contributes. So is an NCM-611 electrode where only 8/10 of the chemical makeup is declared some kind of new scam from the German car makers?

 

[KarenRei]

You're doing the razor wrong:
Audi e-Tron 95kWh battery weighs 700kg, compared to 590kg for Tesla 100D, so it is obviously less energy dense.
However, it recharges at about twice the rate, so seems to have a much better power density.

It doesn't work that way. E-Tron's battery pack contains a crash-resistant structure, while Model 3 bears crash forces in the frame.

Also: while nobody has said what the energy density of the E-Tron's cells are, they have confirmed the density of the even-faster-charging Taycan: 270Wh/kg. Which is definitely an energy-dense, not power-dense, cell.

 

[OPRCE]

Excuse me, but normally the three digits following the triplet chemical makeup of the electrode denote how many tenths each part contributes. So is an NCM-611 electrode where only 8/10 of the chemical makeup is declared some kind of new scam from the German car makers?

Correct, thanks, I meant NCM-622, though it may also be NCM-811 in the case of Taycan coming out later.

 

[SPadival]

many historical reasons to believe they are highly competent in automotive engineering.

Ah yes.. Vorsprung dieselgate technik

 

[lklundin]

Whoops, looks like the Glovis Symphony made a wrong turn on its way to China and ended up in Uruguay!

GLOVIS SYMPHONY Current position (Vehicles Carrier, IMO 9702429) - VesselFinder

View attachment 375750

(I assume that this is an error Otherwise: Congratulations to South American Tesla fans!!! )

On the topic of tracking ships I just realized that the second generation of AIS receiving Orbcomm satellites are being put into orbit by SpaceX on F9:
Orbcomm (satellite) - Wikipedia

 

[KarenRei]

Oh, and one more thing about that "E-Tron charging to 80% at 150kW" thing: I'm yet to see anyone reproduce that in the real world. Someone on this forum sat in an E-Tron while it was charging at a FastNED charger. It started tapering from 150kW at around 60%. By 80% it was well under 120kW.

 

[Foghat]

Elon must have some deep planning skills since he set up with one of his most liked tweets a “meme review” with the largest YouTube channel on the internet the same week he’s personally rolling out Tesla Model 3 in Europe.

Maximizing his marketing exposure in ways unheard of by a CEO... is Elon turning into a time management genius as well?

 

[OPRCE]

It doesn't work that way. E-Tron's battery pack contains a crash-resistant structure, while Model 3 bears crash forces in the frame.

Also: while nobody has said what the energy density of the E-Tron's cells are, they have confirmed the density of the even-faster-charging Taycan: 270Wh/kg. Which is definitely an energy-dense, not power-dense, cell.

Yes, e-Trons battery is packed in a light crash-resistant structure made of Alu. Not sure that changes the cell energy density though.

Is it not well-established that the Bolt NCM cells [closely related to e-Tron] are less energy dense than Tesla NCA 21700?

270Wh/kg is not much above 247Wh/kg for Tesla NCA 21700
Also, how do you know that Taycan cells are "not power-dense" if no figure is available for that characteristic.

 

[Right_Said_Fred]

However, I am fairly sure the Audi e-Tron Quattro will soon prove itself capable of completing a 2,000 km road-trip faster than a Tesla X100D.

Then you first need to find a 2,000 km route with 150+ kW CCS-chargers every 200-250 kilometers. Best of luck with that.

 

[OPRCE]

Oh, and one more thing about that "E-Tron charging to 80% at 150kW" thing: I'm yet to see anyone reproduce that in the real world. Someone on this forum sat in an E-Tron while it was charging at a FastNED charger. It started tapering from 150kW at around 60%. By 80% it was well under 120kW.

I said it averages 140kW 0..80 in 29min, which comes (slightly extrapolated) from video evidence here

At 81% the charge rate was still 110kW.

 

[KarenRei]

Yes, e-Trons battery is packed in a light crash-resistant structure made of Alu.

"Light" != "Crash resistant"

Not sure that changes the cell energy density though.

You're trying to assess cell energy density via pack energy density. So of course if one pack contains a crash structure and the other doesn't, it's going to throw off your estimation.

And regardless, we already know what cells Porsche is using. And they're energy dense, not power dense, cells.

270Wh/kg is not much above 247Wh/kg for Tesla NCA 21700

Tesla's NCA cells are energy dense, not power dense. Power dense cells are things like titanates, which are usually like 140Wh/kg or so. 270Wh/kg is near the highest of energy densities of commercial cells.

 

[KarenRei]

I said it averages 140kW 0..80 in 29min, which comes (slightly extrapolated) from video evidence here

At 81% the charge rate was still 110kW.

At 81% of an E-Tron's battery you're at 47% of a Model S 100D's battery. As was mentioned.

 

[OPRCE]

Then you first need to find a 2,000 km route with 150+ kW CCS-chargers every 200-250 kilometers. Best of luck with that.

No, I don't. Bjørn will do that already whenever it becomes possible.

 

[Words of HABIT]

All this needless chatter from the FUDsters about Tesla M3 discount of $1100.

Yet almost weekly in paid advertising mail from ICE OEM Dealers, I receive these. This weeks' flyer: 5% OFF MSRP, 10% OFF MSRP, 15% off MSRP, on their new 2019 models. No figure.

 

[lklundin]

Elon must have some deep planning skills since he set up with one of his most liked tweets a “meme review” with the largest YouTube channel on the internet the same week he’s personally rolling out Tesla Model 3 in Europe.

I hope it all goes as planned.

The car carrier 'City of Oslo' that is believed to carry the cargo is keeping its speed in a 42 knot (22 m/s) wind in the North Sea
Vessel details for: CITY OF OSLO (Vehicles Carrier) - IMO 9407677, MMSI 563835000, Call Sign 9VGR2 Registered in Singapore | AIS Marine Traffic
that will last throughout the night:
WEPROG Web App

I guess if the cars are all tied down, it shouldn't be a problem.

PS. The 'City of Oslo' has slowed down some, from about 18 knots (9.3 m/s), to just under 15.

 

[OPRCE]

At 81% of an E-Tron's battery you're at 47% of a Model S 100D's battery. As was mentioned.

I thought the discussion here was about the Audi battery technology, not aerodynamics or overall vehicle efficiency?

However, if you feel the need to suddenly change the subject ... by all means do so.

 

[OPRCE]

You're trying to assess cell energy density via pack energy density.

No, I'm just pointing out one pack is larger and heavier, for less energy overall, and that it is implausible to think the crash structure adds 110kg to their pack over the Tesla method. Hence, we're back to the conclusion Audi's cells are less energy dense than Tesla's ... or are you actually persisting in claiming otherwise, as when you previously misapplied Occam's Razor?

 

[KarenRei]

No, I'm just pointing out one pack is larger and heavier, for less energy overall, and that it is implausible to think the crash structure adds 110kg to their pack over the Tesla method. Hence, we're back to the conclusion Audi's cells are less energy dense than Tesla's

So, we can take the known, real-world data for Porsche's even faster charging battery.... or we can assume that literally every piece of overhead in an E-Tron battery is identical in mass between the E-Tron pack and Tesla pack - two packs that couldn't possibly be more dissimilar in design. Gee, which to choose, which to choose....

 

[OPRCE]

So, we can take the known, real-world data for Porsche's even faster charging battery.... or we can assume that literally every piece of overhead in an E-Tron battery is identical in mass between the E-Tron pack and Tesla pack - two packs that couldn't possibly be more dissimilar in design. Gee, which to choose, which to choose....

I note you failed to answer the question ...