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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

gabeincal

HODLer / Theta seller
Jul 5, 2016
1,075
5,547
SF Bay, CA
Did some more fieldwork today. Below are flyovers of 47700 Kato, South Fremont Factory and North Fremont Factory (Gigacast). Seems that they're still installing the Gigacast machine. What a beast.....

Screen Shot 2020-08-26 at 5.26.40 PM.png

 

lafrisbee

Active Member
Dec 13, 2019
1,537
4,863
Indialantic FL
OT (only sort of)
Having a *sugar* load of hardcore dollar sitting in your ROTH 401K (Jeez I don't even know if that's the right name for it) makes the money real as *sugar*.
It isn't like it is "only paper" any longer. It is a shock to the mind, and cool too....sorta. I did not think it would be this strong a feeling. Now I go, "I could buy a Cubertruck and still have enough left over for groceries for life."
 

Dancing Lemur

Hoopy Frood
Aug 14, 2020
204
2,283
Massachusetts, US
Please feel free to ignore my long-form musings below and continue on to the next post...


After much success, I like to recheck my original thesis and evaluate the risks to it:
What are the main obstacles to Tesla achieving a $20K stock price/$4T market cap by 2030?

I’ve broken them into 3 areas: Focus, Competition, and of course, Black Swan. I’m sure your concerns differ from mine, and I’d like to hear them.

Focus
It’s hard to imagine Tesla being this successful without the leadership of a certain Mr. Musk. He‘s running, at last count, 42 different companies disrupting every industry on, and off, earth.

If he were to devote substantially less of his time to Tesla, or to leave it outright, that would have a material impact over time. And the impact to market confidence would be outsized.

I traded Apple a decade ago, and when Steve Jobs “left” Apple, it made for a very difficult 2011, even though he’d built the company to the point that it could execute without him. Tesla is comparable in so many ways to Apple, but visionary leadership and execution on that vision are at the top. Elon exiting Tesla soon would likely alter its trajectory, despite how much of his “DNA” he’s injected into it.

The focus on Energy is a big factor here, too. After acquiring Solar City, the energy business took a back seat (pun intended) to the auto business, mostly for the M3 ramp. Good business decision, in retrospect. But we also saw the energy side languish, providing an uncomfortable glimpse into what it looks like when a product line isn’t being focused on. We know energy is the secret modifier that isn’t currently priced into the stock much, so is a risk if Tesla takes its eyes off it again.

Competition/Complacency
The fact is that Tesla is years ahead of everyone else in everything that matters, plus their brand is top-notch. But maintaining that lead is going to be harder as more resources are dumped into the competition. I know this is a tired TSLAQ trope, but only because there’s a kernel of truth to it.

Again drawing from Apple, the iPhone was revolutionary, and unique — for about a year before the copycats started. And they were good copies. I’m sure a lot of you unfortunates have Android phones (that have collectively outsold iPhones). There are plenty of companies that will give Tesla real competition. A couple of them will be spun out of the traditional automakers, and many will be startups, most of which probably don’t exist yet.

It’s easy to get complacent about that lead. Nio and some of the other 150 Chinese EV companies I don’t know much about could become global leaders. I’m not worried about the likes of Nikola, but Lucid looks legit. Again, they’re at the pre-production of Model S stage of their company, so are way, way behind, but I like what I see. Fisker may not be dead, yet.

The barriers to entry in the EV market are substantial, and Tesla has gotten over the hump that many will fail at surmounting. But some will succeed, and it could mean the difference in market share of millions of vehicles per year. So if the projection assumes, say, a 20% market share in 2030, that could be at risk.

There are also going to be lots of specialized vehicle companies that Tesla won’t compete directly with, but that may want strategic partnerships to share technology and to supply components. What’s going to happen to CAT over the next decade? Will Tesla supply them with EV tech, or will someone else?

Black Swan (nuclear war, aliens, global pandemic, etc)
So far, so good on this front...

—————————————————————————

Do you disagree or have other risk areas I didn’t cover? Solid state batteries leapfrogging tech? Mr. Fusion?

Elon is the big wildcard from what I see; no surprise there. And I think that objectively he’s a pretty big risk as far as CEOs go, but this is where you either drink the Kool-Aid or you don’t.

But regardless of Elon and his quirks, there is very little question that EVs are the way forward, and that Tesla is leading that effort in multiple aspects in multiple markets, so why not bet on the current leader?
 

elasalle

driVIN(188xx) it !!
Jan 26, 2016
3,900
20,634
VA
.
The Bullish Case for Nio Stock Is Greatly Misguided

Anyone having stakes in Nio?

from that article, it seems like they will not have a similar thing to a giga factory for mass production. Will they only be making “roadster” like EVs?

Having the Best stock in EV space, best to ignore all others in same sector. I even stopped caring what NKLA is up to ;) cheers!!

530% gain in 5$ stock and it is now at ~ 20$. :) (Would not currently put anything more than a few 100 $ in NIO anyway)
 

Krugerrand

Is Cat
Jul 13, 2012
10,684
50,739
Tesla friendly place
In all fairness, I am having a hard time wrapping my head around the gains involved here.

How does one preserve huge returns on skyrocketing shares? Buying puts sounds like burning money.

I am looking at a 37% or so tax rate on anything I sell, and the unrealized gains are huge. In many of the instruments I own, the gains would be 95% or greater of the overall sale proceeds.

I am not complaining here.

Does anyone have recommendations on how to go about protecting profits without actually liquidating? Is the only way to become someone that does not absolutely suck at the timing needed to both buy and sell puts at the right time?

To be clear, I am not interested in selling and see TSLA at 10,000 or so in five to ten years, if not next Tuesday.

Any input greatly appreciated. Thanks to all and congrats!

I don't get it. If you're not intending to sell for 5-10 years and you think the SP is going to $10k by then -- what exactly needs protecting??
 

astrotoy

Supporting Member
Jan 24, 2013
321
673
SF Bay Area
I bought TSLA (sunk half of my Roth IRA) in November 2013. It had run up from the 35-40 range when we got delivery of our MS the previous February into the high one hundreds (TSLA's first big breakout). When there was some big FUD, it dropped to the low 100's and I jumped in at 130. I just calculated my rate of return from then to one year ago (November 2013 to August 2019), when it was in the low 200's. I made a compound profit of 9% a year (130 to 213). That was almost exactly the same compound appreciation of the S&P500 over the same period of time of 8.7% per year (1800 to 2900). So I was not an unhappy camper at that point. My Roth was and is a long term investment - for retirement monies if I need them and for estate planning for our grandchildren if I don't. Of course, since then, the increase has been 9108% and my total compound profit is 52% per year. What a difference a year makes.
 

Stretch2727

Engineer and Car Nut
Nov 8, 2015
489
3,329
New Jersey, USA
The Bullish Case for Nio Stock Is Greatly Misguided

Anyone having stakes in Nio?

from that article, it seems like they will not have a similar thing to a giga factory for mass production. Will they only be making “roadster” like EVs?

I have a few thousand shares. Yep, up a lot on a percentage bases but no where near my absolute gains in TSLA.

Even in the most optimistic scenario Tesla will have 20-30% share worldwide. There will be room for others and NIO is looking to expand beyond China. Just glad their market cap is now above that virtual truck company with the founders initials of TM. NIO actually makes a few thousand cars a month.
 
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BlackS

Supporting Member
Feb 20, 2018
2,084
16,839
USA
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OrthoSurg

Member
Jun 2, 2017
711
4,172
Montreal
I have a few thousand shares. Yep, up a lot on a percentage bases but no where near my absolute gains in TSLA.

Even in the most optimistic scenario Tesla will have 20-30% share worldwide. There will be room for others and NIO is looking to expand beyond China. Just glad their market cap is now above that virtual truck company with the founders initials of TM. NIO actually makes a few thousand cars a month.
Interesting. Just heard of that company yesterday at work. Wasn’t aware of their progress. Gotta look into their finance and due diligence.
 

StarFoxisDown!

Active Member
Jan 23, 2019
2,182
15,527
Seattle
I have a few thousand shares. Yep, up a lot on a percentage bases but no where near my absolute gains in TSLA.

Even in the most optimistic scenario Tesla will have 20-30% share worldwide. There will be room for others and NIO is looking to expand beyond China. Just glad their market cap is now above that virtual truck company with the founders initials of TM. NIO actually makes a few thousand cars a month.

This will be my only post on Nio since I don't want to contribute too much to off topic......but Nio has none of the advantages of Tesla which will make ramping very difficult overseas and even in China. They make a few thousand cars a month, at a negative gross margin and since they don't control their manufacturing and are the exact opposite of Tesla in terms of vertical integration, they have had and will continue to have a very hard time improving that margin to a level that is actually sustainable to expand. They are going to have even more issues when Model Y launches in China because they're are going to be price pressured on the SUV EV's they're selling right now. They benefit from being one of the only few SUV EV's from China that aren't terrible and their only competition is the Model X which retails at a significantly higher price points due to imports.

Tesla can continually drops costs through manufacturing efficiency improvements, parts improvements, battery improvements, etc...Nio benefits from none of this. I would take those gains and skip along joyfully ;)
 

MC3OZ

Active Member
Jul 25, 2019
2,033
10,905
QLD Australia
There's a part of me that fears we are in the midst of the holy mother of all buy on rumor and sell on news for battery day.

Battery Day could go either way...

I don't know about the share price, but I have a strong hunch where the business is going...

At present the share price seems to be "forward looking", but a lot of money has been printed recently, perhaps money has been devalued.
 
Jan 19, 2013
917
10,905
Canada
OT (only sort of)
Having a *sugar* load of hardcore dollar sitting in your ROTH 401K (Jeez I don't even know if that's the right name for it) makes the money real as *sugar*.
It isn't like it is "only paper" any longer. It is a shock to the mind, and cool too....sorta. I did not think it would be this strong a feeling. Now I go, "I could buy a Cubertruck and still have enough left over for groceries for life."
@lafrisbee, What is a Cubertruck? Is this another new vehicle segment Tesla is now getting into, triangular cube vans perhaps? /s
 
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dww12

Supporting Member
Nov 10, 2018
767
4,753
San Antonio
Did some more fieldwork today. Below are flyovers of 47700 Kato, South Fremont Factory and North Fremont Factory (Gigacast). Seems that they're still installing the Gigacast machine. What a beast.....

View attachment 581155

Nice pilot work! That crane next to the press would have me sweating my balls off. It looks like a total drone magnet. Oh to see a casting birthed out of there. Freemont is so effing busy. How long before your Tesmanian article?
 

PeterJA

Member
Sep 26, 2013
844
7,286
San Diego
...What I am more interested in is preserving the gains if the market and the stock go south hard...

...Do believe 2 to 3 times from where we are now is reasonably optimistic. If the execution continues as it has of late, will most definitely happen. Wild card is the FSD. That will give us a 3x all by itself....

With respect, I think you don't fully understand where this company is headed. You think you do, but you don't. For example, FSD is worth far more than 3x the current share price.

If you understood where Tesla is headed longterm, you would not care about preserving short-term paper profits. You would care about preserving shares.

Therefore, my sage advice is to invest more time in studying the company. Short summary:

1) Tesla's global market for automotive products is barely tapped.
2) Tesla's global market for FSD is untapped (and bigger than most people currently imagine).
3) Tesla's global market for energy products is essentially untapped (and bigger than automotive, yet not priced into the stock).
4) Tesla has the best engineers in the world (because they want to work for Elon and change the world).
5) Tesla has the best corporate culture in the world for rapid innovation (which will keep them years ahead of all competition, even if well-funded).
6) Tesla is unstoppable now, unless civilization collapses. Black swans (earthquake, terrorism, recession, etc.) could slow them down, but not stop a company with factories and design teams on three continents.
EDIT: 7) Tesla is about to unleash new battery technology that Elon said is "mind-blowing," to end the only thing that has held back sales until now: constrained production.

Longer summary by @FrankSG:
My Tesla Investment Thesis 2.0: Tesla's Monopoly Potential
 
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AudubonB

One can NOT induce accuracy with precision!
Mar 24, 2013
7,966
25,782
I was thinking more along the lines of "I Can't Get No Satisfaction," but I have no idea how to sing it in Latin...
It’s good, but it doesn’t have lines like “Everything dissolving into ashes”.. Oh yeah. Burn baby burn
 
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S3XY

Active Member
Nov 24, 2015
1,951
5,978
Buffalo, NY
So.... now the sources of profit matters
Tesla’s earnings quality could pose dilemma for S&P overseers - BNN Bloomberg

«
Specifically, Tesla would not have made money on a generally accepted accounting principles basis the last several quarters without the sale of regulatory credits to carmakers that need help complying with toughening emissions standards around the world. In the first half of this year, the company booked US$782 million of revenue from the sale of those credits, which are pretty much all profit, according to Nicholas Colas, DataTrek’s co-founder. That compares with US$220 million posted in GAAP net income.

“This puts the S&P committee in charge of adding names to the 500 in a real bind, because while to the letter of their ‘law’ Tesla qualifies for inclusion this is purely due to regulatory arbitrage -- not fundamental profitability from designing, manufacturing and selling cars,” wrote Colas, who in the 1990s spent nearly a decade as an equity auto analyst at First Boston. »
This person needs to explain to me how Tesla would receive these credits if they didn't design, manufacture and sell (EV) cars.
 

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