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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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Welcome. How do you know the agreement is structured where payments are made quarterly?? Any guess as to what the quarterly payment is? Lastly - are you bullish on the stock?

Oops hit reply too soon. You’ll have to trust me, there are resource benefits to being a larger firm. I would guess $1 billion on an annual basis. Half of that this year.

Extremely bullish on the stock. Think this is a generational opportunity and probably the last major drawdown in this security to these levels. Just my opinion, could be wrong.
 
Just got around to watching the Lex interview. My notes:

Is the term algorithm redundant in NN language? Either way, people don't understand the enormity of moving to NN - Lex included I would say.

Elon found a guy with zero personality to interview him. Lex has taken the whole autonomous thing a little personally...

Not sure Elon should call an auto a death machine. The future hasn't happened yet and autos are less dangerous than many other things we 21st century humans still partake in.

Elon comes across the expert - this is normal that even managers working at the cutting edge of tech for large corps are ahead of profs. So much more data to work with. Lex is making a jigsaw from crumbs of evidence.
 
OT


For comparison, the Space-X Falcon Heavy rocket, first commercial launch yesterday, weighs 1420 tons, generates 45 million horsepower, and can lift a payload equivalent to a fully loaded 747.

Falcon Heavy is awesome, however that payload capability doesn't look quite right to me.


Weight Of Boeing 747 | What Things Weigh

A Boeing 747-400 will weigh 403,500 pounds (183,024 kg) when empty. Fully loaded, it weighs around 875,000 pounds (396,893 kg).

Capabilities & Services Falcon Heavy. Low earth orbit 140,660 lbs
 
Yes, it will take years to get to FSD without a driver in the car. However, we are very likely a lot closer than you think to hands free driving. We are very nearly there on the highway. Once Tesla is able to verify the safety of highway self-driving, I would expect the nags to go away. That's already a huge step. Say I want to drive from Appleton to Chicago, roughly a 3 hour drive. I would need to drive the car 5 minutes to the freeway. It would then take over until the exit ramp in Chicago. Doing that hands-free would be invaluable. That is almost certainly coming by the end of this year. I think many people will pay $5k to have that. The next step will be autopilot driving on streets. That will take a while to evolve to being safe enough to eliminate the nags, meaning people won't have to have their hands on the wheel. Once that demonstrates a high safety level, we are there. There are certainly corner cases, but there are going to be ways around many of those. Some routes may not be available to FSD. Here in the midwest, weather will remain a huge factor, primarily in the winter. Even if you aren't required to keep hands on, you will need to be ready to take over if the sensors become obscured by snow.

Ordinary people will pay $5k for that, what about FedEx, UPS? They can have a driver drive the car remotely to get on highway, and then let go. Even if they just enable it on a long strechs of i80. I think they will not blink to pay $100k for that.

But that is probably 5 years away.
 
Inflection Point?

I am having a hard time reconciling the latest statements from Elon regarding FSD, autonomous cars and the SP. It is well known on this board that Waymo has a private market cap of twice or more compared to TSLA. I am still not sure what Waymo is selling right now outside of the future FSD that they promise. But they have been anointed the future market leader and as such it is posited that will have access to the dominant leader position in what has been advertised as perhaps a two trillion dollar market.

Even based on that, TSLA SP makes no sense (although is explained with all the mostly nefarious powers that we know are aligned against TSLA, with good reason as far as they are concerned). Maybe Tesla is behind Waymo... but so much so that their FSD program should be assigned a zero or perhaps even negative number?

But now we have Musk stating "game, set match" on FSD in the next 6 to 18 months. The demonstration of FSD capabilities that Elon claims are still improving exponentially (with a new chip board which has NOT been maxed out on its processing power even will full frame processing from all eight cameras) is to take place on the 22nd. What if Elon is on target (and he is a lot more frequently than the MM or plenty of people on this board give him credit for)?

If Tesla is suddenly and undeniably ahead of Waymo or any other autonomous driving company based on its demonstration, does WS come around and agree that maybe another 20B should be added to TSLAs market cap? 50B? How about equal footing with Waymo at 100B? That would triple the SP from here, not taking into account that the upward violent movement would definitely and finally trigger a short squeeze of epic proportions. And it would not reflect an actual market that exists, in the same way that Waymo's market cap is based on a market that does not yet exist.

What if the demonstration is really meh and Elon has truly lost it? Does this mean the SP should collapse? Its FSD program is already valued at zero. I would expect some downward movement, but so much negativity is priced into the SP right now, the only way I see it continuing to descend would be hard confirmations that demand has really dried up and that no one wants to buy Tesla cars.

In trying to assign probabilities to the possible outcomes, I am coming up with great risk / reward analyses that pound the table on a probable dramatic SP price rise, although tamped down as best as possible by all the usual FUD methods. It is not possible to time exactly when this would happen, although April 22nd might be the date. Probably not.

TSLA has been range bound for almost two years now. Its position is vastly improved compared to two years ago. If FSD is demonstrated at a high level in addition to the advancements of the past two years, we should see a SpaceX launch on the SP.

Elon, you still look stressed and tired, and no one has more reason to be than you, insofar as your workload and competition. Please tell me you are on the mark here. Yeah, you left yourself an out that maybe you are wrong. But you also said you do not see it, and once again, the 99% of the global data input Tesla receives on a daily basis to train its NN because of the FSD sensor ready fleet of 400K plus cars already on the road concludes with 'game, set, match' Tesla.

I know that the bears are engaging in their usual ridicule of the whole affair and will continue full throttle until they are all dead from old age, but if this FSD demo lives up to its hype, there are plenty of deep pocketed powers that will be willing to jump on the bandwagon, FUD be damned. Might even see Buffet, step up to the plate. How else would he hedge against the possible long term terminal decline of his car insurance profits?

Yeah, I have a lot of TSLA stock for me. But am thinking of increasing position dramatically.

Would love to get knocked down here with solid arguments. If all you got is that Musk has lost his marbles, please do not bother so much as I am taking that into account.

As always, I seem to be a contrarian indicator. Do not take my advice. There are plenty of financial advisors out there you can rely on. Do not listen to me. And don't buy any individual stock that you can not afford to mark down to zero the next day.

I would expect the market to recognize the tech when it actually rolls out to customers. Basically at the latest time possible. There are very few announcements that move the price up these days. It seems to take very positive numbers/profit.
 
What is skynet ?

Part of Elon's evil plan to take over the world.

Drevil_million_dollars.jpg
 
Instead, they can drive someone's else's car ;)

Not sure Elon should call an auto a death machine. The future hasn't happened yet and autos are less dangerous than many other things we 21st century humans still partake in.

Oh, but it is. Car vs pedestrians is practically guaranteed to cause serious injuries or death. Car vs car can be also (depending on car and angle).

So demo April 22nd, price hike May 1st. Major order surge during the intervening week to lock in price?
 
Ordinary people will pay $5k for that, what about FedEx, UPS? They can have a driver drive the car remotely to get on highway, and then let go. Even if they just enable it on a long strechs of i80. I think they will not blink to pay $100k for that.

But that is probably 5 years away.

Yeah the real money maker in FSD is in commercial vehciles. Tesla Semi's running tesla fsd software....i could see Tesla charging 5k......annually
 
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Instead, they can drive someone's else's car ;)



Oh, but it is. Car vs pedestrians is practically guaranteed to cause serious injuries or death. Car vs car can be also (depending on car and angle).

So demo April 22nd, price hike May 1st. Major order surge during the intervening week to lock in price?

Did Elon moved the event away from 4/20 to show maturity? No way! My Money's on lawyer intervention.
BTW, how's the SEC negotiation going?
 
Did Elon moved the event away from 4/20 to show maturity? No way! My Money's on lawyer intervention.
BTW, how's the SEC negotiation going?
Original date was the 19th (Friday)
Who knows on SEC side, they have till the 19th to spend at least an hour negotiating, then if no agreement is reached, Judge Nathan lays the snack down on their (the SEC's) candy *sugar* [self censored] (which she may do anyway...)
 
Oops hit reply too soon. You’ll have to trust me, there are resource benefits to being a larger firm. I would guess $1 billion on an annual basis. Half of that this year.

Extremely bullish on the stock. Think this is a generational opportunity and probably the last major drawdown in this security to these levels. Just my opinion, could be wrong.
Wanna believe u man. Just hard to given the amount of BS out there. Would be great to prove you are a legit investor without spilling your identity.
 
I found the interview a little disappointing, as Lex tried several times to get Elon to engage in more philosophical discussion about the design philosophy for Autopilot and the mating of human and machine but Elon was in sales mode for most of the interview.

At one point I felt bad for Lex when Elon basically discounted his whole area of study with his statement that it's irrelevant to monitor humans because the real end goal is to have the machine be safer than the human, at which point the human could be detrimental to safety. I can understand Elon's point, as it's the same focus on the end goals that leads him to say that FSD needs to be solved with vision but in this case I don't have much confidence in Elon's timelines and I think having a human watching the machine will be of benefit for a long time to come.

Keep up the good work @Lex_MIT

How much better driver is an average person, when not drunk, tired, distracted or teenager? Probably at least 10x better, i.e. chances of accidents are 10x lower with average attentive driver compared to statistical average. And skilled, defensive driver that is not drunk, tired, distracted or teenager? Probably 50x to 100x better than 'average', where average includes all those negatives.

And this is how we think and judge ourselves: as attentive, non-drunk, etc, etc. drivers, that are 10x to 100x better than average statistics would imply.

If Tesla brings FSD system that is only 3x(200%) better than 'average' statistics, i.e. at least 3x worse than attentive average driver, said FSD system will be be judged and perceived to be incompetent. After all, it doesn't have excuses of tiredness, distraction etc... Some of the errors will look horrifically amateurish if it's only 3x better than statistically average driver.

I am disappointed with Musk's thinking on this subject. We need to be 100x better than statistics, in order to start claiming success. He's two orders of magnitude off. I am not arguing that 3x better than average statistics is bad result as an internal, transient goal; I'm arguing that Musk is being naive in thinking that result is good FSD target that he can approach regulators with; and he claimed that at this point driver's oversight is unnecessary; this is false, as 3x better is worse than average, attentive driver; his eye rolling at driver oversight comment makes me think he's 'certain' he knows this, and hubris is preventing him from thinking it through; again.

This reminds me a bit of alien dreadnaught, where I had my doubts and concerns about cramming so much stuff so close together; but I thought he knew better; turned out he didn't. I don't have that confidence anymore, actually, I think he's being naive on this subject.

Apologies for coming out of retirement, I feel it's important for everyone's investment thesis to re-evaluate Musk's approach to FSD and his hopes for it.
 
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If FSD is demonstrated at a high level in addition to the advancements of the past two years, we should see a SpaceX launch on the SP.
I don't believe in 4/22 SP takeoff. They can't show something working 100%. Elon just said - next year at the latest (better than human). So, what they have now is likely 90-95%.
You can't use commercially something that is 90%. And how much time the rest of 10% takes is anybody's guess. Elon thinks 3 years, but given his past predictions it can easily be 5 years or 10.
And why would you valuate something 3x now if it only comes 10 years later?
Many here believed SP would skyrocket after Q3, then Q4. It didn't. Feels to me like 4/22 will have less substance compared to that.
Feature complete at EOY 2019 might be something more impressive to look at and then observe the improvement rate from there.
 
Oops hit reply too soon. You’ll have to trust me, there are resource benefits to being a larger firm. I would guess $1 billion on an annual basis. Half of that this year.

Extremely bullish on the stock. Think this is a generational opportunity and probably the last major drawdown in this security to these levels. Just my opinion, could be wrong.
Whoa. $1B? That's huge. If that starts this quarter then Tesla should be on the cusp of S&P inclusion, not to mention the ongoing cash bump for Tesla. It's coming at a great time. This Q1 ER/CC is going to be mighty interesting. I'm feeling rather bullish about Tesla.
 
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Don't know how this will work out, but those companies that are sued survive somehow today? Insurance will definitely be involved and the rates should correspond to payouts?

Yeah, this seems like a new field to be explored, but putting a wall on the way of improving safety in the form of 100x the normal payout does not make much sense, that would be blocking the progress. It seems Elon is confident they can work something out with regulators of they show 2-3x improvement.
Companies survive because they carry insurance with much higher limits than individuals. That's why they're lawsuit magnets.

This has nothing to do with regulators. It's legislators (the same ones Tesla fights with over dealership laws), plaintiff's lawyers and courts.
 
Oh *sugar*, I no longer can filter what this is... I will be mocked...

how long has it been since we've seen progress in rocketry at this scale? Von Braun... 50 years?

nb

check Papafox' recent post

Hey, not knocking SpaceX and their incredible accomplishments one bit! Nobody else can touch them. They have demonstrated unchallenged mastery of the launch industry.

But... When it comes to projected time frames, they didn't meet their stated goals because they were ambitious goals and it was freaking hard work. Thinking that FSD is less difficult and will somehow meet an optimistic schedule this time just isn't believable any longer. I'm sure they'll get it and may do it first, like SpaceX, but it hasn't and won't be on time for the same reasons.

And again, I'd love to be wrong. :)
 
Original date was the 19th (Friday)
Who knows on SEC side, they have till the 19th to spend at least an hour negotiating, then if no agreement is reached, Judge Nathan lays the snack down on their (the SEC's) candy *sugar* [self censored] (which she may do anyway...)
Aw SEC like candy...

Not.
 
How much better driver is an average person, when not drunk, tired, distracted or teenager? Probably at least 10x better, i.e. chances of accidents are 10x lower with average attentive driver compared to statistical average. And skilled, defensive driver that is not drunk, tired, distracted or teenager? Probably 50x to 100x better than 'average', where average includes all those negatives.

And this is how we think and judge ourselves: as attentive, non-drunk, etc, etc. drivers, that are 10x to 100x better than average statistics would imply.

If Tesla brings FSD system that is only 3x(200%) better than 'average' statistics, i.e. at least 3x worse than attentive average driver, said FSD system will be be judged and perceived to be incompetent. After all, it doesn't have excuses of tiredness, distraction etc... Some of the errors will look horrifically amateurish if it's only 3x better than statistically average driver.

I am disappointed with Musk's thinking on this subject. We need to be 100x better than statistics, in order to start claiming success. He's two orders of magnitude off.

This reminds me a bit of alien dreadnaught, where I had my doubts and concerns about cramming so much stuff so close together; but I thought he knew better; turned out he didn't. I don't have that confidence anymore, actually, I think he's being naive on this subject.

Apologies for coming out of retirement, I feel it's important for everyone's investment thesis to re-evaluate Musk's approach to FSD and his hopes for it.

Disagree. The only metric we need to care about is death/injury per mile traveled. Thats it. Note: the drivers have the option of taking over control. A skilled driver who is better than the best FSD can choose to override it.

Caveat: technically, you still need to dive deep and add dimensions to the number. If driver takes control and was injured / died as a result, does it count toward autopilot or the driver himself? Did autopilot lead to an unsafe situation or did the engagement of the driver put him at risk?
Luckily theses cases should not happen so often and you can have a group of human reviewing on a case by case basis and assign fault.

The only thing matters at the end is you have overall reduced death/injuries with FSD enabled compared to human driver as a whole. Any lives saved is an improvement, 100x better is an arbitrary number that is meaningless.
 
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