Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Tesla's currently at at PSR of ~3.2
Tesla's Price/Sales ratio had a recent peak in June 2018 (Model 3 production reached $5K/wk). I'll call that the 'fair-value' the Market had priced in for the intended (forward-looking) sales numbers.

Tesla Price to Sales Ratio 2009-2019 | TSLA

So fast-forward to today's PSR, we can do a little math to estimate Tesla's current 'fair-value' now that Tesla has achieved those sales numbers (and de-risked the growth):

$443 * 4.21 / 3.19 = $585

I think that's largely inline with what the Wall St. talking heads have been saying all-week. Lordy, even AJ said its going to $500 in his missive last month. :p

Imma call it: $555 secret sauce is 'when?'

Cheers!
 
I have been carrying on a conversation about BEVs with an old friend in Germany. He agrees that BEVs are the future, and that reasonably well-off folks like us can afford to make the jump. But he worries about the overall demand to support a transition to BEVs in Germany and Europe based on the current prices and incentives, and hence is a bit concerned that VW and Tesla will build lots of of BEVs but not enough folks will be able to afford them.
You could point him at the Tesla Secret Master Plan: (2006 Ed.)

So, in short, the master plan is:
  1. Build sports car
  2. Use that money to build an affordable car
  3. Use that money to build an even more affordable car
  4. While doing above, also provide zero emission electric power generation options
Don't tell anyone.
 
I am sample size of one, but I am waiting for plaid myself. I am hoping for much longer range option like 500 miles. I think I am not alone and if they deliver something that exciting no one is modeling how big the sales would be.
Yes, and I'm looking for nearly the same range as the Roadster (ie: 620 mi or 1,000 km). I think its the giant Tri-motor Cybertruck that goes 500 miles with the Plaid package. Expectation based on a 200 kwh bty pack.

Here's a bonus Charge Rate prediction:

300 miles range added in 15 min via Supercharger v3. Yes, I AM calling for 387 KW avg charge rate to 55% SOC (beginning of taper), perhaps via dual charge port connectors on the Plaid. :cool:

Cheers!
 
Yes, and I'm looking for nearly the same range as the Roadster (ie: 620 mi or 1,000 km). I think its the giant Tri-motor Cybertruck that goes 500 miles with the Plaid package. Expectation based on a 200 kwh bty pack.

Here's a bonus Charge Rate prediction:

300 miles range added in 15 min via Supercharger v3. Yes, I AM calling for 387 KW avg charge rate to 55% SOC (beginning of taper), perhaps via dual charge port connectors on the Plaid. :cool:

Cheers!
Artful : I think a 1k km Plaid S with the charger specs you mentioned might get me out of my then 4 year old S P100D instead of a CT. I like your thinking.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Artful Dodger
reddit mentioning that the Tesla Semi page has been updated:

0-60 in 20 seconds with 80k load, <2kWh a mile, .36 drag coefficient, 4 motors, 300 or 500 mile range

Tesla Semi

Reddit: Tesla has updated Semi Page
200 miles of additional range is roughly 400 KWh of battery. The fact that Tesla is selling this at just additional 30k or $75 per KWh is MIND-BLOWING

Screenshot_20200104-234026.png
 
Last edited:
One of the reasons I like this post is that it demonstrates why I am so much in favor of using only log-10 price charts.
I also am happy, however, to use this telling history as a reason to bear down on one of my reasons to dislike - for the mom&pop retail investor - any sort of derivative product (aka options, although there are others). First of all, I hope it is clear to everyone that here on TMC we rarely have had as much exuberant discussion of the use of them as in the past several weeks....when TSLA finally has been re-enjoying a great run. The last time I remember as much enthusiasm toward derivatives was back in the heady days of early 2013. You do, I hope remember what then occurred.

First of all, thank you for correcting my erroneous date. There is one more also - the reference to 1998 should obviously be 1988.

As to options, I agree, they should not be a regular "go to" investment product for investors. I do think when the opportunity presents itself they make a wonderful addition to long-term holdings. Typically when I look at available options I have to pinch my nose closed, scrunch my face up and walk away. The prices tend to stink. But if I see the prices on the options are reflecting a large disparity between (what I believe to be) reality and other peoples' perceptions, I'll bite with gusto.

Rather, take another look at MSFT. From its 1999 peak it was a long!!!! time - 17 years - before it finally regained those levels. Not only is that a lot, but in the interim it also dropped from $60 to, at the '08 market collapse nadir, about $10 - oof. Eventually, of course, the price surpassed the old highs; few have held for that long but yes: a very long-term investor in MSFT also is going to be sitting pretty indeed.

I know many here probably believe that I think disruptive companies like MSFT should be held forever but that is not what I do or believe. I sold all my early MSFT in 1998 because I figured that it was close to topping out (and I had already identified a much more promising investment). Little did I know the crazy bull market took it higher for almost two more years. While I didn't get the very top of MSFT that first happened in 2000, I did put it all into an even more profitable place so that made me feel better about my slightly early exit. Notice how I referred to two years and missing out on the final doubling of my investment as "slightly early"? That's what I'm talking about when I say to look at the "big picture". It's about capturing the bulk of the gains and not fretting over whether the stock might go down 40% next quarter (as long as the overall growth story is intact). The secret is to ride the wave long enough that you are not worried about losing 40% of it (in order to continue to ride the wave that is not close to breaking yet).

I bought back into MSFT for the second wave at $32ish (around 6 years ago) and sold it all recently (well over $100) to bolster my TSLA position.

What I recommend is that people not jump out just because they have had a good run. The run can be a lot better than you ever thought was possible. Don't worry about a bad quarter or two if the fundamentals are intact. Be willing to ride a potential down wave for a year or two if there is still a lot of potential growth and the story is intact. But if a stock has played out all the potential growth, or if the overall story has become broken, yes, get out. Don't try to hit the very tippy-top, don't have a hair-trigger - look at the big, big, big picture. And exit if it's time and only if it's time.

Back to TSLA: we have had a number of posters discussing their options plays....and in general, they did not fare well during the years this stock has wandered in the 200-350 channel. Fortunately, it seems clear that TSLA will not have to endure much more than the 5 years from late 2014 to the present. Whether the exogenous factors - a war with Iran, a deficit-driven increase in national debt to unsustainable levels or what have you - will also lead to a replay of the '08 meltdown may wreak havoc....even then, however, I will assert TSLA should fare far better than the market in general.

As long as the Tesla growth story remains intact, this is the kind of thing that not even war can completely break. Excepting for the kind of war I dare not even ponder, global thermo-nuclear war, in which case you will have bigger concerns than whether Tesla is performing up to snuff! This is not reason enough to invest money you cannot afford to lose, I'm just saying it is a very favorable bet.

This bull run we are on has only just begun. I'm not saying this because I'm a foolish optimist, I'm basing it on the known facts and previous observations. While it's not a given truth, it's the next best thing. Only something very substantial could break this run at this point in time. Which is why I call people selling at $400 fools. This opinion of mine is based on a lot of varied types of information coming together and reinforcing itself. I'm not talking about confirmation bias here. Most of this information has been discussed here in-depth and repetitively. One thing that has not been given enough weight or emphasis is discussed by Dim CNBC Tim and Cathie Woods in the last 2 minutes of this video (the entire April 2019 interview is somewhat interesting but start at 11:00 and watch the last two minutes):


Even Dim Tim was left speechless and had to concede her point by his body language. Dim Tim is definitely not the brightest bulb in the room but he does know a thing or two about a stock that has built such a lengthy base.
 
EVs have already shown that they are holding their value better than ICE and the gap will widen further in the coming years.

To date, I believe most EV's drop faster in value than comparable ICE cars. As far as I know, Tesla's are the only prominent exception. They retain their resale value better than comparable ICE cars.
 
It does make me think that Audi believes the market for electric cars is more existing electric car buyers rather than just car buyers. That doesn't bode well for their future.

I always shake my head when I see people refer to "Tesla's competition" and they are obviously referring only to other EV's.

Make no mistake, Tesla is competing for head to head with ICE cars. It's only a small percentage of Tesla buyers whose primary reason is the environment.

But the people who just don't get it always assume someone would only buy an EV to quiet their environmental conscious. I think that's a positive motivating force for many while not being the primary motivating force.
 
First of all, thank you for correcting my erroneous date. There is one more also - the reference to 1998 should obviously be 1988.

As to options, I agree, they should not be a regular "go to" investment product for investors. I do think when the opportunity presents itself they make a wonderful addition to long-term holdings. Typically when I look at available options I have to pinch my nose closed, scrunch my face up and walk away. The prices tend to stink. But if I see the prices on the options are reflecting a large disparity between (what I believe to be) reality and other peoples' perceptions, I'll bite with gusto.



I know many here probably believe that I think disruptive companies like MSFT should be held forever but that is not what I do or believe. I sold all my early MSFT in 1998 because I figured that it was close to topping out (and I had already identified a much more promising investment). Little did I know the crazy bull market took it higher for almost two more years. While I didn't get the very top of MSFT that first happened in 2000, I did put it all into an even more profitable place so that made me feel better about my slightly early exit. Notice how I referred to two years and missing out on the final doubling of my investment as "slightly early"? That's what I'm talking about when I say to look at the "big picture". It's about capturing the bulk of the gains and not fretting over whether the stock might go down 40% next quarter (as long as the overall growth story is intact). The secret is to ride the wave long enough that you are not worried about losing 40% of it (in order to continue to ride the wave that is not close to breaking yet).

I bought back into MSFT for the second wave at $32ish (around 6 years ago) and sold it all recently (well over $100) to bolster my TSLA position.

What I recommend is that people not jump out just because they have had a good run. The run can be a lot better than you ever thought was possible. Don't worry about a bad quarter or two if the fundamentals are intact. Be willing to ride a potential down wave for a year or two if there is still a lot of potential growth and the story is intact. But if a stock has played out all the potential growth, or if the overall story has become broken, yes, get out. Don't try to hit the very tippy-top, don't have a hair-trigger - look at the big, big, big picture. And exit if it's time and only if it's time.



As long as the Tesla growth story remains intact, this is the kind of thing that not even war can completely break. Excepting for the kind of war I dare not even ponder, global thermo-nuclear war, in which case you will have bigger concerns than whether Tesla is performing up to snuff! This is not reason enough to invest money you cannot afford to lose, I'm just saying it is a very favorable bet.

This bull run we are on has only just begun. I'm not saying this because I'm a foolish optimist, I'm basing it on the known facts and previous observations. While it's not a given truth, it's the next best thing. Only something very substantial could break this run at this point in time. Which is why I call people selling at $400 fools. This opinion of mine is based on a lot of varied types of information coming together and reinforcing itself. I'm not talking about confirmation bias here. Most of this information has been discussed here in-depth and repetitively. One thing that has not been given enough weight or emphasis is discussed by Dim CNBC Tim and Cathie Woods in the last 2 minutes of this video (the entire April 2019 interview is somewhat interesting but start at 11:00 and watch the last two minutes):


Even Dim Tim was left speechless and had to concede her point by his body language. Dim Tim is definitely not the brightest bulb in the room but he does know a thing or two about a stock that has built such a lengthy base.

Has dim tim been seen talking about Tesla since the SP hit 450?

I don't watch CNBC unless someone posts a link here.
 
th
Has dim tim been seen talking about Tesla since the SP hit 450?

I don't watch CNBC unless someone posts a link here.

The last I heard it had hit his stated "cover" price but he said he needed to look at one more quarter's results (Q4) before he was ready to concede! :D He seemed to think Musk had cooked the books in Q3 to get such good results. :cool:

This could get real expensive if he has a real position.
 
Artful : I think a 1k km Plaid S with the charger specs you mentioned might get me out of my then 4 year old S P100D instead of a CT. I like your thinking.
Lol, well TBH I want one too the way Boris wants Natasha... :p

Tesla-Model-S-Supercharger-Nurburgring.jpeg


Dual-headed V3 Supercharger at the 'Ring? Just a conincidence... ;)

Cheers!
 
Last edited:
Cramer called it a tech stock at the opening bell yesterday, but the other geniuses on CNBC that have not driven the car said something along the lines of “idk how to value this company...is it auto, is it battery” no mention of tech or energy. Shows how out of touch they are with the direction the company is headed. They assume it’s 2012 and they are still Tesla motors. Hard to trust any analysis on the street about TSLA.. they have no idea what’s going on.

about Tesla? I think they have quite an awareness of what is going on, thus the intense commitment to misdirection and distortion in what they say to their audience.
 
This is not reasoning by first principles. Of course Toyota can go bankrupt. Of course the government can then prop them up. But then guess what? Toyota can go bankrupt again and again and again. At some point the government will no longer be able to prop them up either because the government runs out of resources or people demand they stop or some combination.

Toyota HAS to produce vehicles that people WANT to buy. That’s a fact. Toyota HAS to make a profit from those vehicles at some point. That’s a fact.

It’s more likely that we see layoffs and repeated downsizing of many of the larger OEMs until they downsize themselves out of existence or they downsize to a position of strength - meaning they become small enough to have unloaded all the bureaucracy and legacy weights and can start from scratch and rebuild themselves.

The smaller OEMs just going bu-bye, either completely abandoned or swallowed up by someone bigger, who will then - see above paragraph.

Final answer.

I think the prop up will be massive government funding of battery factories, and massive loans to keep them going through the fall of the ICE business until the EV business is ramped up enough to put the company on its own feet again.

I see this very likely to play out in Japan and Germany (not necessarily for all players, but, the heavy hitters), and then, by pointing to Germany and Japan to counter public frustration, be used in the US to do the same for GM and Ford.

It's looked like this to me for months now. fwiw, it has been clear to me for years that not only would the ICE incumbents basically not put out vehicles competitive to Tesla, they basically would not even try (see link below from 3 years ago).

The likelihood of the German and Japanese governments putting up a huge part of the funding for 11th hour battery factories, and backstopping domestic ICE mfgs balance sheets is the moral hazard that is the last huge incentive to the behavior we've seen play out,

The Fractured Tipping Point Moat
 
Last edited: