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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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Yes clearly, just 36 quarters from now (9 years), Tesla's production will have reached a steady state, at 20M cars per year. :D

Cheers!

Aren't you forgetting that 4 years from now Tesla ramps production of their next generation battery breakthrough, and Elon announces the next stretch target - for 2032 - is 40M cars per year!
 
I may not agree with your logic but I agree with your ASP conclusion.
1. Remember Cybertruck? If they sell even at F-150 Lighting levels they'll contribute to maintaining ASP.
2. Remember Model Y? It is at the highest volume category for many countries and production capacity will at least triple within the next year.
3. S and X are not disappearing. Almost every one of those has an ASP of US$100,000 or more.
4. Then there will be the odd Semi or Roadster. Not many but very much useful for raising average ASP.

So there will be at least the $50,000 average ASP even with high volumes of new small vehicles. but...
5. Every small vehicle will have a Performance or other high spec version, yielding higher average ASP.

We need to speculate about FSD or Robotaxi. Those may happen but there is no clear notion of timing. Still,
many all of us seem fixated on ASP when the real issue is Gross Margin and Capex. Here we have evidence:
6. Capex is entirely funded from cash flow. This in a company growing at >50% per annum. The operative word is "unprecedented".
7. Manufacturing innovation is progressing at an "unprecedented" rate, and is actually allowing the antiquated Fremont factory to keep increasing production and Shanghai to exceed planned production capacity and keep growing.

All of the above points have been made repeatedly but it is difficult to absorb their totality. We try, but it's difficult. We strive for analogies, but really there aren't good ones. The Thomases (Edison and Crapper) the Henry's (Firestone and Ford), James Watt, Cyrus McCormick, Karl Benz, Isaac Singer, Edwin Land and so on, show people who have revolutionized the industrial world. Some became legendary. But...

In Elon Musk we have someone who has revolutionized consumer banking, rocketry, automobiles and more but he actually has contributed the most by building factories. SpaceX and Tesla achieve most of their success because they both build things so well. Skipping the hyperbole, the point of this all is that ASP is irrelevant, Cash Flow is relevant. SpaceX would not exist were it not for reusable rockets, and that was manufacturing innovation. Tesla would have died had it not been for the BMS and continuous manufacturing improvement.

So, ASP is a red herring! Cash flow rules! Elon Musk describes things in other terms, mostly. He repeats the mantra of manufacturing innovation, FAST cash conversion cycle and product innovation for cost reduction.

None of those famous people have combined these elements in just this way. That is why we have no useful precedent.
None of those people, have cultivated excellent and passionate people is quite the way he has done.
Most of the world tends to see his flaws and think TSLA shares his flaws. Mostly TSLA does not have those flaws. Probably one: a tendency to ignore some important parts of buyer support. I think they'll grow out of that one.

This diatribe courtesy of my brother-in-law and his spouse, who yesterday spent hours grilling me on these and related points.
Very interesting perspective on ASP, thanks as always for the comment. I would have pegged ASP as lower but have no idea on what that means to margin and cashflow. I also find it interesting that Tesla is now such as cash creating machine but they have not launched any new gigafactories. They have several smaller facilities that perhaps are running on more of a stealth mode, like Kato rd.
 
300K+ amazing quarter and of course Gordon is trying to find the downside.

I'm pretty sure what the sources are actually saying is that Tesla received around 60,000 orders within China in December (which would be amazing news), and they're raising prices to try to reduce demand and delivery times.

'According to industry insiders, Tesla may sell more than 60,000 vehicles in China in December in 2021. However, due to the sharp increase in orders and the insufficient supply of components such as chips, it is estimated that only the October 2021 orders will be delivered at most, and some orders have begun to exceed 70 days, exceeding the original delivery commitment of 6 to 10 weeks. The delivery date has also changed to 12 to 16 weeks. Due to the continuous rise in the price of bulk raw materials and chips, and the delay in delivery has increased unnecessary communication costs, Tesla chose to raise the price this time. Model Y even did not even need subsidies, taking the initiative to reduce orders to a certain extent to relieve delivery pressure.'
 
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Could somebody kindly post Max-Pain and a screenshot of the "Open Interest" chart from this link? (out now at 7 am ET).


Paging @SOULPEDL or anybody who reads this first. TIA.

Cheers!
mp.png
 
300K+ amazing quarter and of course Gordon is trying to find the downside.

Gotta feel a little bad for him. Sitting in his basement (well a basement) with vomit stains on his shirt from when he heard the quarterly delivery numbers and went on a bender. Desperately trying to find something to hang his nasty, smelly hat on.
 
I feel that Tesla would likely build some LFP 4680s even if there is plenty of market supply. It might be only (e.g. 10%) of the needed volume as an insurance policy against political change or market collusion - but it wouldn't be wise to put themselves in a position where they didn't have the in-house practical experience to rapidly scale LFPs should they need to.

It's a lot more engineering work than you may think to switch battery cell chemistry from NMC to LFP. The heating profile and ion conductivity are vastly different between the two cathode chemistries. It will not be as simple as just making a cell with the same electrode layer thickness as existing cells. Much thermal modeling and testing wiould be required, and then you have to ask yourself "what are the potential gains?" vs just building more of the exisitng prismatic cells.

There's nothing magical about the 4680 cell format: it's an engineering compromise that was chosen specifically for Tesla's nickel chemistry cells. I don't expect any movement before 4680 production is fully ramped with the existing design. After that, why not another clean sheet of paper? Reinvent the wheel only when the wheel costs too much, is too hard to build, or is in some other way unfit for purpose.

Cheers!
 
I may not agree with your logic but I agree with your ASP conclusion.
1. Remember Cybertruck? If they sell even at F-150 Lighting levels they'll contribute to maintaining ASP.
2. Remember Model Y? It is at the highest volume category for many countries and production capacity will at least triple within the next year.
3. S and X are not disappearing. Almost every one of those has an ASP of US$100,000 or more.
4. Then there will be the odd Semi or Roadster. Not many but very much useful for raising average ASP.

So there will be at least the $50,000 average ASP even with high volumes of new small vehicles. but...
5. Every small vehicle will have a Performance or other high spec version, yielding higher average ASP.

We need to speculate about FSD or Robotaxi. Those may happen but there is no clear notion of timing. Still,
many all of us seem fixated on ASP when the real issue is Gross Margin and Capex. Here we have evidence:
6. Capex is entirely funded from cash flow. This in a company growing at >50% per annum. The operative word is "unprecedented".
7. Manufacturing innovation is progressing at an "unprecedented" rate, and is actually allowing the antiquated Fremont factory to keep increasing production and Shanghai to exceed planned production capacity and keep growing.

All of the above points have been made repeatedly but it is difficult to absorb their totality. We try, but it's difficult. We strive for analogies, but really there aren't good ones. The Thomases (Edison and Crapper) the Henry's (Firestone and Ford), James Watt, Cyrus McCormick, Karl Benz, Isaac Singer, Edwin Land and so on, show people who have revolutionized the industrial world. Some became legendary. But...

In Elon Musk we have someone who has revolutionized consumer banking, rocketry, automobiles and more but he actually has contributed the most by building factories. SpaceX and Tesla achieve most of their success because they both build things so well. Skipping the hyperbole, the point of this all is that ASP is irrelevant, Cash Flow is relevant. SpaceX would not exist were it not for reusable rockets, and that was manufacturing innovation. Tesla would have died had it not been for the BMS and continuous manufacturing improvement.

So, ASP is a red herring! Cash flow rules! Elon Musk describes things in other terms, mostly. He repeats the mantra of manufacturing innovation, FAST cash conversion cycle and product innovation for cost reduction.

None of those famous people have combined these elements in just this way. That is why we have no useful precedent.
None of those people, have cultivated excellent and passionate people is quite the way he has done.
Most of the world tends to see his flaws and think TSLA shares his flaws. Mostly TSLA does not have those flaws. Probably one: a tendency to ignore some important parts of buyer support. I think they'll grow out of that one.

This diatribe courtesy of my brother-in-law and his spouse, who yesterday spent hours grilling me on these and related points.

I would also add higher-than-normal inflation into the ASP won’t decline thesis as well.
 
Very interesting perspective on ASP, thanks as always for the comment. I would have pegged ASP as lower but have no idea on what that means to margin and cashflow. I also find it interesting that Tesla is now such as cash creating machine but they have not launched any new gigafactories. They have several smaller facilities that perhaps are running on more of a stealth mode, like Kato rd.

This sparked my imagination of the next Gigafactory being TE specific, rather than automotive. Cranking out replacements for existing power plants, with Tesla's manufacturing prowess applied.

Reducing energy costs, as well as saving the planet, will result in a dramatic shift of the economic landscape and lead to decentralization of control from the few to the many. In a first principle sense, energy is the foundation of all currency.
 
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Gotta feel a little bad for him. Sitting in his basement (well a basement) with vomit stains on his shirt from when he heard the quarterly delivery numbers and went on a bender. Desperately trying to find something to hang his nasty, smelly hat on.
Disagree because no one should feel sorry for him.

He has access to the same information as anyone else.

He chooses to ignore (more likely is paid) to not see the truth in front of him.
 
I remind the group that the Upper Bollinger Band sat at about $1,129 on Friday's Close, and we're setting up to Open near that level today:

View attachment 751382

Don't be surprised to see some selling/profit taking today. But keep in mind, Tesla is a TRILLION dollar company growing at 87% and destined to become the World's most valuable company within a few years.

IMO, we're very likely to revisit the ATH of $1,244 before Q4 Earnings, but I also don't see any reason why that should be a 'cap' (other than "Burry Worries"). Especially if the BoD finally splits the dam stock! Let's GO! :p

Cheers to the Longs!
Tonight we should be back to November 1st levels. Can't wait for @curtrenz playing the ATH hymn soon.
Happy new Year!
 
$1200 call wall; here we come! But none of the call walls look that big compared to the blowout quarter.

Our own @DaveT has said it best at this timestamp

"Tesla profits can increase 50% Q/Q"

Screenshot 2022-01-03 6.03.45 AM.png


Even for us bulls, heck, even for uber bulls, this quarter is beyond the bullish bull case.

If this quarter was represented as vehicle acceleration it would be faster than the SpaceX package Roadster.

Something like 0 to 60 in 0.8 seconds, where it defies the laws of physics.

I'm just at a complete loss at how this was possible, I think it's great and wonderful, but wow.
 
Love the "it can't be done" crowd.

They along with the "it will take a much longer time" crowd have made me a lot of money.

An offshoot of the "it can't be done" crowd is the "if Tesla can do it, others can do it just as well" crowd. These people don't think Tesla has anything special, they are rooting for someone, anyone other than Tesla, to succeed. And I get that - it would be nice if all automakers could flip a switch and churn out EV's in large enough numbers to meet all the demand right now. But, these people should be careful for what they wish for. Because at the point there are enough EV's to satisfy demand, the emperor will not be able to hide behind low volumes while using ICE sales to cover up the problem. The problem is the cost to produce. It is impossible to offer good value when your company is inefficient at manufacturing.

Legacy auto could claim to be efficient at manufacturing ICE cars because there was no one to show them what was possible. There was no Tesla of the ICE world to illuminate just how archaic and inefficient automaking had become. It's easy to look good when you are surrounded by a field of equally incompetent manufacturers bringing poor value to consumers worldwide. Huge barriers to entry protected their incompetence.

The transition to EV provided the private investment capital for a new company to enter the race. Tesla knew they had to try harder and offer more to scale the barriers erected by the status quo and that caused them to reimagine what an auto could be and how it could be made at lower cost. Most of us here have profited handsomely by realizing that Tesla does have something special. And as time goes on, the difference between Tesla and the rest becomes more and more apparent, not less. Remember when people said the others will catch up to Tesla? Those people don't understand, it's not just about making a car with certain specs, it's about offering real value. They don't understand that not all manufacturers are equal.

The impressive P&D numbers released yesterday are not the really important thing, at least not directly. The reason the P&D numbers are important is what they reveal about Tesla. This is the best demonstration yet of Tesla's ability to make more with less and that is what drives down the cost for consumers. In four weeks, that will show up as enviable margins in the release of the 2021 financials. Those industry leading margins, even before Tesla has reached volumes measured in millions per year, are just the tip of the iceberg that has big, bloated legacy auto running scared. If Tesla can increase production and reduce cost per car that easily now, how can they compete on price when Tesla has economies of scale of millions of units per year and the EV market starts to become saturated? Because Tesla's cost to produce advantage will continue to increase with the application of new production technologies and increasing production volumes will multiply those effects. Legacy auto debt will grow as they struggle to modernize and keep up and huge debt works against the goal of low cost to produce. Anyone who thinks others will be able to keep up on that most important metric, cost to produce, must be smoking crack.
 
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Norway is very close to having 20% of all personal cars running electric! In December 67,1% of cars sold were zero emission cars.

In december the best selling car models were:

  1. Tesla Model Y - 2379
  2. Tesla Model 3 - 1968
  3. Volkswagen ID.4 - 718
  4. Nissan Leaf - 711
  5. BMW iX - 709
  6. Toyota RAV4 - 698
  7. Audi Q4 e-tron - 569
  8. Skoda Enyaq - 528
  9. Porsche Taycan - 507
  10. Hyundai Ioniq 5 - 441
All electrics except for the Toyota.

For all year 2021 - per model:

  1. Tesla Model 3 – 12.058
  2. Toyota RAV4 – 8 928
  3. Volkswagen ID. 4 – 8 645
  4. Tesla Model Y – 8 267
  5. Volvo XC40 – 6 415
  6. Ford Mustang Mach-E – 6 160
  7. Audi e-tron – 5 745
  8. Skoda Enyaq – 5 711
  9. Nissan Leaf – 5 313
  10. Polestar 2– 4 103
And for all year 2021 - per maker:

  1. Tesla - 20.397
  2. Volkswagen - 16.926
  3. Toyota - 15.807
  4. Volvo - 13.707
  5. BMW - 11.119
  6. Audi - 10.355
  7. Skoda - 9856
  8. Ford - 9400
  9. Mercedes-Benz - 9001
  10. Hyundai - 8667

With the pandemic creating all sorts of hurdles it's interesting to note that Norwegians set a new record in the number of cars bought in a year. 176.276 new cars were bought beating the old record of 167.352 cars from way back in 1986.

Source: Bilsalget i desember og hele 2021 and an interview with Øyvind Solberg Thorsen i OFV in vg.no
 
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Very interesting perspective on ASP, thanks as always for the comment. I would have pegged ASP as lower but have no idea on what that means to margin and cashflow. I also find it interesting that Tesla is now such as cash creating machine but they have not launched any new gigafactories. They have several smaller facilities that perhaps are running on more of a stealth mode, like Kato rd.
Really? Just how big do you think their plate ought to be? Do you really think it’s a good idea for them to split resources even more as they build two new factories and expand multiple other facilities simultaneously and also while creating several new product lines during a pandemic with very real supply chain issues -

Never mind that Elon already answered the question of when they’d likely announce new locations and gave the reasons why. *see above*

I don’t get your line of thinking at all. But it might be because I can’t get past your Ford pumping.
 
On June 16 of 2021, Elon replied to a tweet saying "Massive increase in Supercharger network is underway"
Now that Q4 is over, we can look at Q4 numbers and 2021 totals for North America.
(Disclaimer: data was pulled from supercharge.info, which is not official data from Tesla)

New locations per quarter (new record)
1641219163055.png


New stalls per quarter (new record)
1641219231801.png
 
One important thing you missed is dilution. You assume the number of shares in 2030 will still be 1.1 billion. But it won't. Tesla will probably not need to issue shares to raise money, but it will need to issue a lot of them to reward its management and other employees. On 30 September 2021 there were 1.123 billion shares, ten years earlier, on 30 September 2011, there were only 0.52 billion. During the last three years alone the number of shares increased by 270 million. So in 2030 there could be 1.5 billion or even 2 billion shares. What could save us though is Tesla starting a share buyback program.
You are right to point out dilution but I doubt it will be anything near the level you are suggesting, not even at your lowest level of 1.5 Bn shares by 2030.
That implies Tesla issuing 400m shares to staff between now and 2030. Assuming an average share price of $4,000 (roughly half way between today and what it might be in 2030 under the scenario I provided), that is a total value of $1.6T. Will Tesla really be issuing that value of stock to its employees?
Lets also assume that the number of staff has grown to say 400,000 by then, compared to around 100,000 now. That's an average of $4m per individual. They would all quit their jobs!

I've no idea what the dilution will be, maybe I am missing something, but I don't think it will be anything like the level you are suggesting.