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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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I heard last October was the last chance to get TSLA at these prices 😂

Shortzes have at least 3 more rounds chambered: NHTSA, SEC, and die Lizenz.

Last October the PE Ratio was very high. It won't be by THIS October if we trade flat all year!

Shortzes know this. That's why they're working hard to undermine the basis for Tesla's PE multiple by spreading FUD about 2023/24 growth rates: They're attacking the growth story.

People, Tesla's antagonists are NOT stupid, and they are NOT ethical. Even right now, they are chasing TSLA's "beta" multiple: it was 1.54x vs the QQQ when the news broke, now stands at 1.82x so you wanna guess they're goal is 2.0x?
 
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… All of this will essentially lead to the end of TSLA being the king of options on Wall St and lead to much more natural trading which is going to be consistent to the upside for years straight.
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Because their masters haven't accumulated all the shares they wanted to.

I think it's pretty obvious many of them actually still believe the fairytale that "the competition is coming" at least to enough of a degree to not be confident of Tesla's utter dominance looking out 2-3 years. That's because they haven't done the work to understand how Tesla has a huge advantage when it comes to pricing power. This advantage is growing with Tesla's growing production volumes and with advances in Tesla's manufacturing efficiencies. I'm sorry if I'm being repetitive on this point (cost to produce) but this is probably the most important misunderstanding in terms of Tesla's perceived competitive position and how that impacts current valuation in the market.

And this points to just how lazy big money is when it comes to understanding the things they have (or have not yet) invested in. Because it's not difficult to see how durable Tesla's advantage is when it comes to efficiency of manufacture and how that impacts their competitive position in the automotive market going forward.

The primary factor covering up this important advantage is that good, long-range EV's are still more cost intensive to build than ICE cars and this reality obscures just how efficient Tesla's manufacturing really is. The assumption is that as legacy manufacturers ramp into high volumes of EV's, that their cost of manufacture will fall to be in-line with Tesla, but the evidence is everywhere that this will not be the case at all (and Tesla's cost to produce is still declining). The latest generation of Gigafactory will have even lower costs of manufacture.

The secondary factor covering up Tesla's efficiency of manufacturer is that Tesla does not build cheap cars with low cost, flexy chassis, cheap tires, cheap brakes, cheap glass, cheap wheel bearings, cheap seats and cheap suspensions. Using first principles thinking, Tesla does not decide where to cut costs by how visible the part is. They cut costs where it doesn't matter, where it's worth it to cut costs without regard to how visible it is. Tesla's definition of "safe" is not when the structure achieves a 5-star crash rating because Tesla knows that the crash testing does not represent every real-world accident. They build safety to accommodate the real world, not to mollify the crash tests and this costs a little more. Volvo took safety to a new level and developed a reputation as a solid but somewhat heavy vehicle. Tesla focused on real world crash data and used exceptional engineering to increase safety beyond the 5-star rating without adding excessive additional weight. Most of the cost of this is in the lab and it adds very little to the cost of manufacture. The point here is that a Tesla is not directly comparable to a less safe car because the additional safety adds value to the consumer.

Finally, legacy auto has successfully obscured Tesla's big cost advantages by combining ICE and EV when reporting auto margins (and by building very few EV's). It is to legacy auto's advantage to be very opaque about this but they cannot ramp EV's to high volumes without their much higher cost of manufacture becoming increasingly apparent. So, it's only a matter of time before people figure out that legacy auto will not be catching up to Tesla in terms of how much value they can offer the customer. We know the competition is NOT coming but many people are still not convinced of that. Only when that becomes obvious to other big market participants (that the competition is NOT coming) will it be reflected in Tesla's valuation.
 
Weekend assignment for anyone who has not seen The Social Dilemma, a 2020 Netflix documentary on the impact of Social Media (FB, Snapchat, Twitter, Instagram, Youtube, Pinterest, Reddit, Youtube, LinkedIn, Google) to humanity. Watch it. Trailer link above. Social Media is toppling governments, changing the course of entire countries, dispanding democracy, so it's not just about Tesla. Social Media's business model, monetize for ever increasing advertising revenue, is flawed. It results in changing the perception of the masses to view more screen time and sell more products. If you currently use any of these Social Media platforms, nothing is given out for free. Either you pay for the product or you are the product. Since Tesla does not advertise, and Tesla's competitors advertise in the tens of billions of dollars, the advancement of the algorithims to target their viewing audience to believe Tesla is unsafe and a hazzard to our environment and are inferior products, and Elon is promoted as mad and an evil villain.

Earlier this week a good friend called me to state they heard of a Tesla "recall" for cars running stop signs and knowing I drive a Tesla was very concerned for my safety. Also my son's high school Business course teacher advised the class that Tesla was in great trouble because of the computer chip shortage. Good intentioned, well educated people effectively brainwashed by Social Media. I advised my friend that the "recall" was for software designed as intended (allowing 2 mi./hr rolling through stops only if all clear) and Tesla fixed the issue with an over-the-air update in less time than it took the journalist to write their article. I gave my son a screen shot of a Google search with search words only "Tesla chip shortage" and the first dozen articles were all positive how Tesla was able to ride out the chip shortage unlike all other auto manufacturers. Yes, the chip shortage is an issue, but not a critical path item for Tesla. My son showed the screen shot to his teacher who quickly retracted his statement. It is a war out there, and it is not just Tesla. Democracy has a price. Ukraine has a price. Tesla has a price. A price paid to Social Media by advertisers to cause unrest. Thank goodness for TMC and quality bloggers like Dave Lee and Rob Mauer for keeping up the truth.

The only Social Media site that I have is LinkedIn and will remove that. If you have not already, please watch the entire movie, The Social Dilemma. It will be well worth your time spent and I would encourage anyone who has a Social Media accounts to remove them. As a Ukrainian (my grandparents came to Canada from Ukraine) my prayers are with them for a peaceful resolution.
 
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Yep, exactly. I feel this is where TSLA will be by the end of this year after trading mostly "flat" for 2022. Tesla isn't going to stop executing, financially the company is exploding like Starship flying for Mars. The PE will compress so tightly by the end of 2022 that the stock will become a predictable climber of the market within a year or so. As you said, like Apple.

Today's price might seem frustrating, but look at it like so: 2022 will likely be the LAST chance anyone has of buying TSLA shares at prices like these. Either accumulate all you can now or miss the train which is about to depart the station for orbit.
Actually, that's not what I'm saying haha. At least in terms of timeline.

I don't see TSLA being capped to 850 for 2022. Not at all. The upside will probably be limited to the high at the beginning of the year, so 1200. That I can definitely see.

If you do feel that 850 is where the share price will be at the end of 2022, you should probably add in your estimates for GAAP & Non GAAP EPS. I'm at a baseline of $12 GAAP, but I think $15 is realistic based on deliveries of 1.5-1.6 million. There's multiple upsides in store for GAAP earnings in 2022. GAAP EPS will increase dramatically faster than Non GAAP due to no more hits from Elon's compensation tranches. Only 62 million spread across 2022. Then you have S/X. If they get back to full production this year, that will account for $2-3 of EPS alone over 2021. Then you have the tax allowance that will be used at some point in 2022.

I'm using GAAP EPS because that's the one that has the impact on P/E multiples. I think Non GAAP will be $15-18 this year, possibly even $20.

And if that's the case, if Tesla executes like that, then you're looking at P/E way, way south of 50 if the stock was still at 850 by the end of the year. Sorry but to think that TSLA would have a forward P/E of 25-30 while growing earnings at a baseline of 100% for 2023 is delusional and a pretty clear example of fear overtaking rational thought process as an investor.

Only way TSLA could have that low of forward P/E or really even a forward P/E of lower than 50 is if we're in another "once in a decade" type event like the dot.com crash or the housing crisis. Neither of which I see any similar elements or traits. Not even close.

Obviously, the caveat is that Tesla has to continue executing like they have. But considering expectations for Tesla are already in the basement with estimates of Non-GAAP EPS of $10, Tesla is set up for huge beats throughout 2022.
 
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These times reminds me so much of the Model 3 ramp up-period. At every one of those run-ups you can see in this period, I thought THIS is it. But it was all a looong hill down. Until it wasn’t. Feels so much like the same kind of situation now, with the two factories launching and the fud storm. We all know what happened after this 👇😁
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Great weekend to y’all!
 
OT, but only sort-of.

After the SpaceX talk tonight this whole thing has kind of sunk in.

This is the first time I’ve ever really felt we have a chance at being multi-planet/ leaving the bounds of this earth.

It’s kind of profound. I’m glad to be a part of the “team” sort of. Even if it’s in a distant way.

A major SpaceX (or Boring) update is absolutely on topic in my opinion for several reasons. I've been intending to write this for months because I keep seeing SpaceX stuff described as off topic.

1) Indicator of the engineering results of the Elon Way

If SpaceX is winning big with unique methods, and Tesla is using those same methods, then events of SpaceX success should bump up our estimate of Tesla's probability of future success.

Likewise for Boring Co's probability of success, which is important because of the massive complementary benefits to Tesla and TSLA of building a subterranean network of robotaxi racetracks. Thus, the importance of SpaceX's success is actually amplified because of the implications it has for the budding Tesla-Boring symbiosis.

2) Technology transfer

Many insiders (including the Big Man himself if I remember correctly) have said that Tesla and SpaceX have significant free flow of technology breakthroughs between them. Especially importantly, I have heard they share a lot of materials engineering research resources. SpaceX uses Model 3 motors for actuators. Cybertruck uses SpaceX stainless steel alloy. Etc. Pace of innovation is allegedly the only thing that matters in the long run, and the collaboration with SpaceX is certainly an innovation speed booster. I think this is a major factor in Tesla and SpaceX accomplishing so much innovation on such parsimonious R&D budgets.

3) People - Talent recruitment and engagement

I would bet my bottom dollar that a majority of the Tesla workforce--and potential future workforce--is pretty effing excited about life going multiplanetary. Substantial progress in the Mars endeavor attracts positive attention around the world and increases Elon's credibility as a leader. He's repeatedly said talent is the ultimate limiting factor on Tesla's growth. Therefore, anything that attracts and excites the right people towards Tesla's mission is beneficial.

Additionally, as can be seen in this very forum, Tesla customers, fans and investors are also excited about SpaceX. YouTube data indicates that tens of mIllions of people watched the Inspiration 4 launch for St Jude's hospital and saw the astronauts rolling to the pad in Model Xs, which the announcers made sure to mention every couple minutes. You can't beat that kind of free product exposure.

Tesla dominates largely with their mastery of the art of fostering intrinsic emotional motivation in the workforce. Optimism about the future of humanity and about the transformational power of technology is a fundamental driver of this motivation for the team. It helps get them through the grueling 12-hour workdays. When SpaceX wins, I'd have to imagine the employees at Tesla are celebrating too.

4) Bringing Americans together, strengthening the US economy and improving the USA's global reputation

Being primarily based and headquartered in the USA, being run by a leadership team mostly of Americans (of whom about half voluntarily chose to immigrate here), and having a majority of sales in the American market for at least the next several years, Tesla is heavily dependent on continued overall American success. It is no secret that our country is (once again) in some social turmoil these days and we need inspiring achievements to increase our optimism and unity. I agree with Elon's assessment that this nation is a distillation of the human spirit of adventure and exploration. In recent years, I genuinely have not seen anything uniting Americans and exciting this adventurous spirit within us more than SpaceX launches. This is the country that invented the airplane and developed it with great companies like Hughes, Douglas and Boeing; that took on Werner Von Braun from Nazi Germany to build NASA; that put the first footprints on the Moon. It is no accident that SpaceX was founded here. Furthermore, many Americans deeply desire this nation to be an admired world leader committed to the advancement of the human condition in terms of global freedom, prosperity and peace, and I think the achievements of SpaceX represent the ultimate embodiment of the American dream.

Next, the USA also is second only to China in total fossil fuel consumption and has a populace with an unusually large number of people skeptical of the dangers of this situation. We can't afford to have so many Americans thinking that BEVs, solar power and mega grid batteries are merely a big socialist scam pushed by hippies, communists, and the Globalist Elite. The American people, and by extension, American elected leaders, must get on board with decarbonization if Tesla's mission is to succeed. SpaceX, Starlink and the Launch America joint venture with NASA all help greatly with this.

SpaceX succeeding draws in more American youth towards science and engineering careers in general, much like President Kennedy's great moonshot goal of the 1960s, which was a major factor in the USA's global ascension in the latter half of the 20th century and the eventual fall of USSR-style totalitarianism. This in turn draws more skilled and motivated people into Silicon Valley, SpaceX, and Tesla.

Finally, Tesla's market success in Canada, China, Europe and elsewhere depends partially on how people in these markets view America and American products. Even if built locally, Tesla products are still seen as American and thus this reputation matters. SpaceX is merely one of many factors influencing our nation's global reputation, but it is a highly visible one and will be increasingly so in this decade as they blanket the rural regions of this planet in high-speed affordable broadband internet and send humans to the Moon and Mars with rockets designed and built by Americans and launched from American soil.

5) Elon's stress levels and time availability

When SpaceX is having problems such as the current Raptor manufacturing debacle, Elon's time, focus and mental energy is sapped from being able to help with Tesla matters.

When SpaceX is humming along nicely, Tesla can get more of Elon.

6) The Captain goes down with this ship

How many times have we heard Elon say that Tesla will go bankrupt if and only if he also goes bankrupt? That he was the first one to put in big money and will be the last one out? This is the guy who risked everything in 2008 to pull the company just barely away from the jaws of financial doom.

The more SpaceX is successful at achieving their ambition of Starship launch costs, durability and reuse cycle time, the more SpaceX has cash flow and access to capital. Likewise for commercial success of Starlink. Elon owns the majority of the equity. Thus, the more money SpaceX commands, the more Elon commands, and by extension the more protection and insurance Tesla has from serious extended cash flow doomsday scenarios because he will provide liquidity by borrowing debt collateralized by his SpaceX equity, or by paying out a dividend. By such time that SpaceX is earning $50B+ annual profits, Tesla could financially survive a Great Depression 2.0 without question.

------------------------------------------

In conclusion, any TSLA investment thesis ought to have valuation estimates taking into account the miraculous success of SpaceX emerging over time as they smash difficult milestones. If the first successful demonstration of orbital launch of Starship does occur this year, and with a freaking full-flow staged combustion engine no less, a rational valuation for TSLA will increase materially. If the market does not respond as such, I will be increasing my stake.

We choose to go to Mars this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one we intend to win.
 
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Unless Zach knows something negative that we don't about the future of Tesla, wouldn't this be a great time to implement a share buyback program? All this macro negativity, P/E compression, FUD, non-belief in future growth prospects, interest rate rising (even though it has almost zero impact on Tesla), etc.

I know I wish I had cash to buy more TSLA. And I'm sure many of you are thinking the same. Well, who has billions lying around? Execute on deliveries, GFs and FSD, and how smart would he look a couple years down the road buying back shares to today's prices?

Seems like a no-brainer to me.
 
A major SpaceX (or Boring) update is absolutely on topic in my opinion for several reasons. I've been intending to write this for months because I keep seeing SpaceX stuff described as off topic.

1) Indicator of the engineering results of the Elon Way

If SpaceX is winning big with unique methods, and Tesla is using those same methods, then events of SpaceX success should bump up our estimate of Tesla's probability of future success.

Likewise for Boring Co's probability of success, which is important because of the massive complementary benefits to Tesla and TSLA of building a subterranean network of robotaxi racetracks. Thus, the importance of SpaceX's success is actually amplified because of the implications it has for the budding Tesla-Boring symbiosis.

2) Technology transfer

Many insiders (including the Big Man himself if I remember correctly) have said that Tesla and SpaceX have significant free flow of technology breakthroughs between them. Especially importantly, I have heard they share a lot of materials engineering research resources. SpaceX uses Model 3 motors for actuators. Cybertruck uses SpaceX stainless steel alloy. Etc. Pace of innovation is allegedly the only thing that matters in the long run, and the collaboration with SpaceX is certainly an innovation speed booster. I think this is a major factor in Tesla and SpaceX accomplishing so much innovation on such parsimonious R&D budgets.

3) People - Talent recruitment and engagement

I would bet my bottom dollar that a majority of the Tesla workforce--and potential future workforce--is pretty effing excited about life going multiplanetary. Substantial progress in the Mars endeavor attracts positive attention around the world and increases Elon's credibility as a leader. He's repeatedly said talent is the ultimate limiting factor on Tesla's growth. Therefore, anything that attracts and excites the right people towards Tesla's mission is beneficial.

Additionally, as can be seen in this very forum, Tesla customers, fans and investors are also excited about SpaceX. YouTube data indicates that tens of mIllions of people watched the Inspiration 4 launch for St Jude's hospital and saw the astronauts rolling to the pad in Model Xs, which the announcers made sure to mention every couple minutes. You can't beat that kind of free product exposure.

Tesla dominates largely with their mastery of the art of fostering intrinsic emotional motivation in the workforce. Optimism about the future of humanity and about the transformational power of technology is a fundamental driver of this motivation for the team. It helps get them through the grueling 12-hour workdays. When SpaceX wins, I'd have to imagine the employees at Tesla are celebrating too.

4) Bringing Americans together, strengthening the US economy and improving the USA's global reputation

Being primarily based and headquartered in the USA, Tesla is heavily dependent on continued overall American success. It is no secret that our country is (once again) in some social turmoil these days and we need inspiring achievements to increase our optimism and unity. I agree with Elon's assessment that this nation is a distillation of the human spirit of adventure and exploration. In recent years I genuinely have not seen anything uniting Americans and exciting this adventurous spirit within us more than SpaceX launches. This is the country that invented the airplane and developed it with great companies like Hughes, Douglas and Boeing; that took on Werner Von Braun from Nazi Germany to build NASA; that put the first footprints on the Moon. It is no accident that SpaceX was founded here. Furthermore, many Americans deeply desire this nation to be an admired world leader committed to the advancement of the human condition in terms of global freedom, prosperity and peace, and I think the achievements of SpaceX represent the ultimate embodiment of the American dream.

Next, the USA also is second only to China in total fossil fuel consumption and has a populace with an unusually large number of people skeptical of the dangers of this situation. We can't afford to have so many Americans thinking that BEVs, solar power and mega grid batteries are merely a big socialist scam pushed by hippies, communists, and the Globalist Elite. The American people, and by extension, American elected leaders, must get on board with decarbonization if Tesla's mission is to succeed. SpaceX, Starlink and the Launch America joint venture with NASA all help greatly with this.

SpaceX succeeding draws in more American youth towards science and engineering careers in general, much like President Kennedy's great moonshot goal of the 1960s, which was a major factor in the USA's global ascension in the latter half of the 20th century and the eventual fall of USSR-style totalitarianism. This in turn draws more skilled and motivated people into Silicon Valley, SpaceX, and Tesla.

Finally, Tesla's market success in Canada, China, Europe and elsewhere depends partially on how people in these markets view America and American products. Even if built locally, Tesla products are still seen as American and thus this reputation matters. SpaceX is merely one of many factors influencing our nation's global reputation, but it is a highly visible one and will be increasingly so in this decade as they blanket the rural regions of this planet in high-speed affordable broadband internet and send humans to the Moon and Mars with rockets designed and built by Americans and launched from American soil.

5) Elon's stress levels and time availability

When SpaceX is having problems such as the current Raptor manufacturing debacle, Elon's time, focus and mental energy is sapped from being able to help with Tesla matters.

When SpaceX is humming along nicely, Tesla can get more of Elon.

------------------------------------------

In conclusion, any TSLA investment thesis ought to have valuation estimates taking into account the miraculous success of SpaceX emerging over time as they smash difficult milestones. If the first successful demonstration of orbital launch of Starship does occur this year, and with a freaking full-flow staged combustion engine no less, a rational valuation for TSLA will increase materially. If the market does not respond as such, I will be increasing my stake.

We choose to go to Mars this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one we intend to win.

Spot on.

Too much negativity going on in the world right now...time to go for a drive in the MY :) Have a good weekend y'all.....hopefully next week yields some better results.

While TSLA (the stock) isn’t doing great the past few months. Tesla and SpaceX are for me anyhow shining beacons of awesome. Like a Jacob’s Ladder piecing the deluge of bad news on a daily basis.

Very few companies and things going on that really inspire hope the way these companies do.

Oh… boy do I look awkward with these Pom Poms and dress on. Not exactly usual Ogre attire.
 
I feel like @StealthP3D has hammered the concept that the stock market largely shrugs off modern conflicts into my head, but I think it's worth reiterating here with a chart.

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Given that the looming Russia-Ukraine conflict has been largely telegraphed, it's possible a lot of the risk-off has already occurred, as substantiated by a 2015 research study into the dynamic. I think this analysis should be taken with the caveat that an escalation of the conflict into a regional or wider one would mean all bets are off, of course...

History tells us periods of uncertainty like we're seeing now are usually when stocks suffer the most. In 2015, researchers at the Swiss Finance Institute looked at U.S. military conflicts after World War II and found that in cases when there is a pre-war phase, an increase in the war likelihood tends to decrease stock prices, but the ultimate outbreak of a war increases them. However, in cases when a war starts as a surprise, the outbreak of a war decreases stock prices. They called this phenomenon "the war puzzle" and said there is no clear explanation why stocks increase significantly once war breaks out after a prelude.