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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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My response to your post was pointing out how things can change very quickly in TSLA. 2021 was a year long decline and consolidation that ripped from 750 to 1250 in a month. There are no present factors at play that prevent that same thing happening again this year.

There is also no guarantee the same thing WILL happen this year either. 😉

TSLA could very well stay relatively flat for the next year or so, even after multiple record earnings, even after severe PE compression. Or the stock could run up like a Falcon 9 rocket. Anything could happen, we just do not know.

What we DO know is the MM's purposefully hold TSLA down, regularly. That kind of manipulation working against market macros and record ER's are what lead me to lean more towards a flat year for the stock rather than a rocket blasting off. At least until a large amount of new investors come in.
 
The valuation of a company has to include the Macro Economic forces that affect it - not all of which you can just swat away as "noise".

Our own personal opinions about what the TTM or Future looking P/E ratios are reasonable for Tesla are irrelevant. The shareholder base (and those considering being shareholders) in aggregate decide that. I would not be surprised to see continued P/E erosion until the next "big thing" becomes a reality (Bot, Robotaxi).
I love it when posters (here or on twitter) post something like this.

If you want to apply actual valuation metrics, that's fine. But post your actual expectations of those metrics, not just some vague/broad lines. If you think TSLA will trade at a Forward P/E of 50, then actually put the work to get yourself to that point. I can look around all of Wall St right now that show me TSLA's valuation is disconnected and either TSLA will rocket higher at any moment or the rest of the stock market needs to tank a good 30-50%.

Otherwise, it's a post with little substance.

I see a ton of twitter tesla bulls posting rather outlandish price targets over the year and future years. Some of it I don't agree with. But they actually post the work to show how they got there.

There is also no guarantee the same thing WILL happen this year either. 😉

TSLA could very well stay relatively flat for the next year or so, even after multiple record earnings, even after severe PE compression. Or the stock could run up like a Falcon 9 rocket. Anything could happen, we just do not know.
I never said it was a guarantee. If you read my response to his original post, I was clearly pointing out that none of the current factors around TSLA prevent it from making the same move this year, even if the Twitter hangover is still there and/or there's no credit rating upgrade.

Again, I'm actually pretty bearish on the stock in the short term. Elon's action are going to be too much of an overhang with nothing of material substance to counter it until Q3 P/D and/or Q3 earnings.
 
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Seriously doubt twitter will be better, especially with him going into this so politically charged. It has an "echo chamber" in the making more than anything else.

I think Elon didn't get your memo (that he can't reform Twitter). The only way I would agree with that is if he doesn't acquire it. Either he gets it and reforms it or he doesn't get it and it remains a negative influence on the direction of society. Actually, the simple act of making web bots an issue in the purchase/sale has already caused Twitter to significantly reduce the number of bots. It's still a cesspool but fewer bots run by political operatives is a good thing.

Sometimes I wonder if people actually understand the magnitude and significance of the problem of the disinformation wars, and Twitter and other social media platforms are ground zero. For the most part, it's not some shady corner of the government that is running disinformation campaigns, it's private interests with money to burn. A lot of it is so subtle you wouldn't even think twice about it. It's designed to gently but significantly warp public thought in ways that are helpful to interests most of us would find objectionable.
 
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Thus it would be quite reasonable to assume that cost savings plus generous incentives will suddenly make demand result in, dare I say it, exponential growth.

Is all that not why Tesla suddenly announced Semi deliveries would begin this year?
Always good to have your insight.

The 10% number I threw out was admittedly a wild guess and seems absurdly conservative to me. Thinking about the value the semi platform will deliver, I expect that sales will only be limited by the ability of Tesla to scale cells as early estimates guess this to be a HUGE number of cells. 500 miles of range with an efficiency of 2kWh/mile is 1000 kWh or 1 mWh of cells. Wow.

Let's take a look at the value proposition for a moment. Costs vary widely for electricity across the country as well as during the time of day and necessary charge rate. Also diesel fuel pricing is anything but stable. Still, we can make some guesses and get a general idea as to the savings with an electric drive train.

Current diesel price per gallon: $5.13
Miles per gallon average: The current fuel consumption for a loaded big rig is about 6 mpg. (my trucker friends tell me that 6 mpg is "if you are lucky).

Cost per mile for fuel: $0.85

Average miles driven per year: 80,000 to 110,000 (let's assume 100,000 miles per year for easy math)

Yearly cost for fuel: $85,500

Current list price: $200,000 -2023 Freightliner Cascadia
Monthy payment assuming 10% down, 60 month loan at 4.5%: $3,355.

Yearly payments: $40,260

Cost per year payments plus fuel: $125,760

For this exercise, I'm going to ignore what is certainly a benefit for an electric vehicle, and that is maintenance costs. While we've seen some numbers that suggest EVs have a 22% lower cost of maintenance, we have no data on the semis at this point so while I expect brakes, rear end, exhaust (and DEF system), transmission, clutch, motor, and other systems will cost much less, we won't know until these vehicles are out in the wild for some time. Also, I'm guessing insurance will be similarly priced, assuming similar down-time, and mileage. These may be worse for the Tesla early on due to charging infrastructure issues, so I'm going to assume an offset for this post.

Tesla semi:

While we don't have clarity to the current pricing, we do have a long history of Tesla maximizing the tax credit system. Tesla will likely charge the maximum they can and the way the current tax credit is structured, I see that as $240,000. This is $60,000 more than the reveal price and some might balk at that, but if the Cascadia is $200,000 the tax credit can be at the only taken as the *difference* between the electric truck and a similar diesel truck. I'll use this higher price for this exercise. Since I am looking at yearly cost, I'll also ignore depreciation.

The $40,000 tax credit brings the cost of Tesla semi to price parity with the Cascadia so the yearly payments are the same: $40,260.

Cost of electricity: $0.14/kWh.
Tesla promised $0.07/kWh when they unveiled the semi and roadster, but that was many years ago. They also said it would be powered by solar, but that is going to demand a mind boggling amount of solar, so a huge amount of CAPEX. In my area, I can get commercial/industrial energy charges of $0.03-0.04/kWh in off-peak charging, so it is possible for Tesla to hit their 7cent number, but I'd be surprised. I doubled the number to be conservative and assume all megacharging.

Cost of energy: I'm going to assume 10% system losses for charge/discharge cycling, cabin use, etc. so for 100,000 miles, the Tesla semi would use 220,000 kWh at a cost of $0.14: $30,800 for energy per year.

Tesla Semi one year cost payments plus energy: $71,060

Difference: Tesla is $54,700 cheaper to operate per year.
Or: Cost per mile for diesel: $1.25 vs Tesla: $0.71

At a tax preferred $200,000 initial price. The savings will completely pay for the new truck before the 5 year loan matures **AND** will have 600,000 miles of drivetrain warranty remaining.

This is assuming no autonomy, not even follow-the-leader style caravan where the real savings (labor) come into play, is ignoring the savings from maintenance and repairs, and also assumes no difference in downtime or insurance, both of which are likely to favor the EV platform due to the fundamentals of how Teslas are designed and built.

TLDR: Tesla Semi will sell every unit they can produce for a decade or more and destroy the diesel fleet in the process.
 
I can look around all of Wall St right now that show me TSLA's valuation is disconnected and either TSLA will rocket higher at any moment or the rest of the stock market needs to tank a good 30-50%.

There is a third possibility though:

Tesla's valuation will stay disconnected like it is today.

There isn't any law stating a valuation needs to conform to a standard or be like it's peers. A stock valuation is determined by the investors, and sadly MM's are investors too, and as long as they manipulate the stock TSLA could stay very disconnected from where it "should" be trading.

This disconnect might last quite a while yet.
 
I think Elon didn't get your memo (that he can't reform Twitter). The only way I would agree with that is if he doesn't acquire it. Either he gets it and reforms it or he doesn't get it and it remains a negative influence on the direction of society. Actually, the simple act of making web bots an issue in the purchase/sale has already caused Twitter to significantly reduce the number of bots. It's still a cesspool but fewer bots run by political operatives is a good thing.

Sometimes I wonder if people actually understand the magnitude and significance of the problem of the disinformation wars and Twitter and other social media platforms are ground zero. For the most part, it's not some shady corner of the government that is running disinformation campaigns, it's private interests with money to burn. A lot of it is so subtle you wouldn't even think twice about it. It's designed to gently but significantly warp public thought in ways that are helpful to interests most of us would find objectionable.
It has nothing to do with bots...unless you think Truth Social is an echo chamber due to bots..or that it's not an echo chamber.
 
Personally, $1500 has been and is my number to sell out of TSLA. It's been a great ride from $6 to now, just waiting for it to fit my model with what I want to do with my wealth going forward...safely from recessions
Consider selling LEAP calls ATM when you get there. Based on today you would be cashed on the spot with over 30% of the asset value. Of course the shares would sell in the future for 1500, unless you roll them for MORE MONEY. Or, they are below 1500 and YOU GET TO KEEP THEM. And sell more LEAP calls ATM for MORE MONEY.

Or you could sell calls at a price 20% higher, which at today's prices would get you about 20% of asset value.

One scenario where this works out badly: Stock collapses, TSLA bankrupt. But even that doomsday scenario would have you with close to 100X your original investment in hand.

Eh, wake me when we hit 1500. We talk then.
 
Last year also didn't have TSLA at a P/E of 100......soon to be in the 70's.

Because in reality, that's metrics of valuation. Not Twitter, Not 4680 ramp (which Wall St has zero clue of anyways), NHSTA scrutiny has bene with TSLA forever.

I'm in no way over simplifying anything. Because valuation simply boils down to a set of metrics to determine valuation. Not noise. Noise can, and probably will, be in control for the next two months and then Tesla's fundamentals will be front and center. And then it's up to Tesla to see where the valuation goes.



Ok don't address what I say 😅 . Ya might want to go through the history of the stock market and seen just how well P/E multiples across the market have held up during periods where Fed Fund rates were in the 3-5% range. Also, do the math for how much the Fed Fund rate would have to be at to justify P/E compression from 250 to 70.

My response to your post was pointing out how things can change very quickly in TSLA. 2021 was a year long decline and consolidation that ripped from 750 to 1250 in a month. There are no present factors at play that prevent that same thing happening again this year.
Fine. I will beg Mom’s forgiveness so we might have the SP and timeline information. 🙄
 
Personally, $1500 has been and is my number to sell out of TSLA. It's been a great ride from $6 to now, just waiting for it to fit my model with what I want to do with my wealth going forward...safely from recessions.
I think it is awesome that you have been able to see the value increase you have. I joined much later as an investor, despite being a product owner since 2015. My goal is at least 3600, and preferably 5000. I continue to be buoyed by the analysis I see in this thread.

As for Ralph Nader, Dan O’Dowd, and the other naysayers - Tesla just needs to keep producing and moving forward. Results will will drown them out.
 
Personally, $1500 has been and is my number to sell out of TSLA. It's been a great ride from $6 to now, just waiting for it to fit my model with what I want to do with my wealth going forward...safely from recessions.

$1500 is only around 23% higher than TSLA's all-time high. In my experience that would be a terrible place to cash out because it will likely power through that range with some serious momentum and force for at least another year as long as economic conditions are conducive. Once a disruptively profitable company like Tesla has broached old, established highs, it creates a "blue sky" scenario. It's an unleashing of value that an investor doesn't want to cut short if it can be helped.

But some people like to leave a lot of money on the table for other investors to profit from. That's a very generous thing to do so who am I to recommend against it? ;)
 
Consider selling LEAP calls ATM when you get there. Based on today you would be cashed on the spot with over 30% of the asset value. Of course the shares would sell in the future for 1500, unless you roll them for MORE MONEY. Or, they are below 1500 and YOU GET TO KEEP THEM. And sell more LEAP calls ATM for MORE MONEY.

Or you could sell calls at a price 20% higher, which at today's prices would get you about 20% of asset value.

One scenario where this works out badly: Stock collapses, TSLA bankrupt. But even that doomsday scenario would have you with close to 100X your original investment in hand.

Eh, wake me when we hit 1500. We talk then.

I have other interests and passions in my life, that are slightly on standby at the moment, than waiting, for 5 years, for TSLA to make my life (and others) really nice.
 
What a coincidence all this stuff is happening now, right before the split. The US is completely corrupt, 3rd world country with a Gucci belt.
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Stretching this out, if Tesla is ever brought to court over FSD, most everybody on this forum knows they could lay the facts / statistics down that demonstrate unequivocally the general safety of Autopilot - and the specific safety of FSD - well above industry standards. Would be a big win I believe.

On the other hand, IF lobbying pushes US Gov / States to bar FSD, Tesla is within its rights to get FSD regulated elsewhere (Canada?) which would only make the US case look increasingly embarrassing.

Either way, we here believe the data is on our side.

And most important of all, I keep expecting every setback by a toilet-inspired Elon tweet will sink Tesla's market caché. It hasn't happened yet. Tesla's are as in-demand as ever.

HODL.
 
I think it is awesome that you have been able to see the value increase you have. I joined much later as an investor, despite being a product owner since 2015. My goal is at least 3600, and preferably 5000. I continue to be buoyed by the analysis I see in this thread.

As for Ralph Nader, Dan O’Dowd, and the other naysayers - Tesla just needs to keep producing and moving forward. Results will will drown them out.

Thanks, I think so too! Hope Tesla does get there at some point!

$1500 is only around 23% higher than TSLA's all-time high. In my experience that would be a terrible place to cash out because it will likely power through that range with some serious momentum and force for at least another year as long as economic conditions are conducive. Once a disruptively profitable company like Tesla has broached old, established highs, it creates a "blue sky" scenario. It's an unleashing of value that an investor doesn't want to cut short if it can be helped.

But some people like to leave a lot of money on the table for other investors to profit from. That's a very generous thing to do so who am I to recommend against it? ;)

One would have said the same for 2019 when Tesla went in the opposite direction after many years after that runup from 30 -> 300 in 2012 to 2013...with that being life changing for me as well.
 
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And more FUD; news says Ralph Nader wants fsd banned. Ralph is 88 years old and may still use a land line. Powers that be will say anything and use anyone to smear or slow Tesla. I wonder if Ralph has been snookered.
Ralph revels in being anti-something. He made a mark in being anti-BIG-auto in the 60s and 70s. So he wants to recreate the same magic. Like the single-hit wonders Jim Chanos and Mike Burry, they know they will get all the publicity because of their past big victory.

What is better than being anti-Tesla today for the liberal left? So there is his motivation.