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Tesla can wait until investors give up on Rivian's money-losing ways, and then buy Rivian in a hostile take-over at pennies on the dollar... then drastically improve the efficiencies of their R1-S and R1-T, and gain an instant entry into the conventional-looking truck/SUV market (and the delivery truck market). :p

But seriously, there's a greater than 0 chance this could happen one day... and they'd likely fire 80% of the people.

If investors gave up on Rivian, I don't think it would be a hostile takeover at that point. I wouldn't be surprised if Tesla buys Rivian in the next few years. Improve efficiency of the vehicles and most importantly, the production so it is profitable.
 
Build vs Buy, I wonder what the Cybertruck program is worth right now as it stands...and just how much cannibalization would occur in the orders if Rivian were bought by Tesla.
True, Tesla hasnt spent $15B on the Cybertruck program. But Rivian is more than the truck. It is also the SUV and the delivery van and customers. However integrating such a company would be a nightmare of complexity.
 
If investors gave up on Rivian, I don't think it would be a hostile takeover at that point. I wouldn't be surprised if Tesla buys Rivian in the next few years. Improve efficiency of the vehicles and most importantly, the production so it is profitable.
But I'd be. Elon already said RIVN might go bankrupt. He doesn't strike me as the type of guy who goes in and buys a business he doesn't like.
 
Factories, IMO, are the biggest net win - Tesla can improve efficiency in Rivian significantly. Many posters here have said the same for years.
To a degree. Production Cost is an integral part of Product Design. Then again, Tesla could probably make anything at half the cost, with half the resources, and with half the waste as anyone out there.
 
Miscalculation maybe, but no less a priority.

ICE trucks are the gas hogs keeping legacy afloat for the most part. Tow range is also critical or it's not a truck. Critical 4680 Batteries feed both Semi and CyberTruck so it shares another critical path with Semi already in play. Throw in a good challenge and, ya... Elon's mission gear kicks in.

This may have taken away from the unboxed focus, but maybe not. Mexico wasn't quite ready, and the strategy change to do both was fairly recent (early this year?). So did CT really delay $25K? I lean toward not a diversion and necessary. I do think the sheet metal flatness after bending is mirror-like impressive. That may have been the challenge of all challenges and surfaced quite late.
Hardcore smackdown niche by niche, excuse by excuse
 
Maybe we finally broke the Max Pain Masters! To the MooOOoOoooN!! /s
It finally loaded... after a popup ad was done loading. Ever since they came along... Imagine that, Max Pain is trying to monetize on stale data? :mad:
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OTOH, the same publication has this report out:


Which says US battery manufacturers are laying off workers due to domestic EV manufacturing slowdowns. Which implies that Tesla continues to not be a battery supply crunch, and the limiting factor to Tesla EV growth is indeed the economy and their limited product line.

I really do think that Cybertruck was yet another self inflicted wound for Tesla since it appears it’s manufacturing has been a bear to get right, and has diverted resources away from a $25K car, which would have been a better thing to work on these past several years in hindsight.
I see no reason why both can't be elaborated/developed in parallel, which is probably what has been happening. Also Tesla needed to learn how to manufacture better before they scale more, produce things for less cost and with higher quality

But I do agree that the rest of the world is begging for the cheap Tesla, CT is pretty much a North American product, but it will create a lot of free buzz
 
So?
Edit: (And I gotta quit doing this, but the optics of a tow truck not making it back from camping is #2 problem for the Lightning F-150 version (behind charging). A version of CyberTruck needs 500 mi range, or it's not a truck. If I tow isn't the question, I will eventually and our culture is forcing self sufficiency. I may need to literally load up and get outta Dodge - City that is. Bullet proof might come in handy, IDK.)
Indeed; if those people are the customer base, they are who they are regardless of if they ever really tow or not.
 
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Fsd v12 rolling out to employees. Love it!
Imo this is such a huge underreported story. V12 live demo was amazing and that was a while ago for a product that had not been in development for long. Since then they have likely removed a few of those rare "ran a red light in an intersection" bugs and they have added so much compute. I would not be surprised if V12 actually is supervised FSD A->B with driver intervention <1% of drives.

There might some 2 steps forward, 1 step back, but maybe not with this release. No longer handcoded c++ with weird dependencies and a mess where one bugfix introduces a few new etc, pure neural networks. I think Elon wants people to try V12 when they drive to their families for Christmas so they will have something to talk about. Might be a bit tight, but like Elon likes to say, tight is right.
 
Imo this is such a huge underreported story. V12 live demo was amazing and that was a while ago for a product that had not been in development for long. Since then they have likely removed a few of those rare "ran a red light in an intersection" bugs and they have added so much compute. I would not be surprised if V12 actually is supervised FSD A->B with driver intervention <1% of drives.

There might some 2 steps forward, 1 step back, but maybe not with this release. No longer handcoded c++ with weird dependencies and a mess where one bugfix introduces a few new etc, pure neural networks. I think Elon wants people to try V12 when they drive to their families for Christmas so they will have something to talk about. Might be a bit tight, but like Elon likes to say, tight is right.
I can't bring myself to use FSD much anymore (still occasionally). Knowing v11 is a dead branch, I no longer feel like using it provides useful data to Tesla to "solve FSD". It's not good enough for me to use around town regularly vs me driving. I'll be happy to start using again, as a beta-tester, once v12 rolls out. I'm excited to see if it's as good as the hype.
 
Also... substantially, the $25,000 car is already designed. They could probably start building it right now but they'd have to sell it for $30,000.
It's highly unlikely the manufacturing design for the Gen3 car is finished. We heard in September that Tesla was experimenting with rapid prototyping of dies for the 16K ton Gigapress, which also does not exist yet. So no, they could not build that car right now, for any price.

They are still working on the scaled-up 4680 battery production processes, which is a critical part of getting the retail cost down to $25,000. So in a way... they are already working on the $25,000 car and have been so since 2020.
Gen 3 will almost certainly have an LFP pack. Although Tesla physically could build a 4680 cell with that chemistry, they are not doing so currently. It's much more likely that Gen 3 comes with a CATL or BYD pack to start production (if Ron Baron is accurate that production will start in 12-18 months).
 
Interesting idea. Tesla bought SolarCity for $2.6B in 2016 when Tesla stock price was about 15x less than it is today. Rivian at a current $15B market cap would be cheaper for Tesla to buy today than it was to buy SolarCity from a stock dilution perspective.

It is at least worth considering...

RJ Scaringe would never let that happen and he has veto power.
 
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Imo this is such a huge underreported story. V12 live demo was amazing and that was a while ago for a product that had not been in development for long. Since then they have likely removed a few of those rare "ran a red light in an intersection" bugs and they have added so much compute. I would not be surprised if V12 actually is supervised FSD A->B with driver intervention <1% of drives.

There might some 2 steps forward, 1 step back, but maybe not with this release. No longer handcoded c++ with weird dependencies and a mess where one bugfix introduces a few new etc, pure neural networks. I think Elon wants people to try V12 when they drive to their families for Christmas so they will have something to talk about. Might be a bit tight, but like Elon likes to say, tight is right.

My opinion is that each update is more or less required to pass the same unit test cases. When you have major architectural changes (like going from V10 to V11) there can be regressions on those test cases even if the overall performance is better. So even if V11 was showing less disengagements than V10 in say July 2022, it wasn't released until early 2023 because it took that long to make sure there weren't any new failure modes or major regressions.

So if true this means V12 already is close to not having any new major failure modes and passing the same unit tests (in aggregate) that V11 has passed. Which means it would indeed likely be a signficant improvement.

This is surprising to me to happen so fast.
 
I am also thankful today for this 30-something: LLMs FTW. ;)

[1hr Talk] Intro to Large Language Models | Andrej Karpathy (17 hrs ago)


Cheers to the Pilgrims (and the Pioneers!)

TL;DR of long post:
It is ~100% certain that Robotaxi FSD can be solved with Tesla's V12 approach. This fact alone should make you shake the couches.

Look at Karpathy's talk above and pay special attention to the slide at about 25:45 (see below set at proper time).

He presents the LLM scaling law which says performance of an LLM is a smooth, well-behaved, predictable function of N, the number of parameters and D, the amount of training data. He also mentions that there is no known limit to this scaling law.

I see no reason the same law would not apply to Tesla's FSD models. This is something that has been talked about a lot.

Conclusion #1: There is no reason to believe that FSD V12 will reach a local maximum. V12 is the kind of model that Tesla wanted all along. It will just keep getting better and better without any new approach or technology breakthrough. (Or as Karpathy puts it, algorithmic progress is a bonus, but not necessary).

Conclusion #2: It is ~100% certain that Robotaxi FSD can be solved with Tesla's V12 approach.

Conclusion #3: It is extremely likely that Tesla will be the first to market with a Robotaxi FSD. Tesla is currently the only company that can satisfy the "D" variable. Tesla is the only one with enough quality training data. (Yes, Kathy Wood has been right about this)

Conclusion #4: It is possible that Hardware 3 will not be able to handle a model with a large enough "N", number of parameters, to do Robotaxi FSD. Hardware 4 has a better shot at it. But I think we can safely say that even Hardware 3 will eventually get a version of FSD that is very, very good at driving. This is why Elon is saying that it looks like Hardware 3 will be better than a human. Hardware 4 will be even better and Hardware 5 will be better still. This is all about the ability to deal with a larger "N".

If you have been following the progress of FSD closely, none of the above should be new. But it is nice to see how the narrative in the Tesla community comports perfectly with the LLM scaling law Karpathy is discussing.

According to the scaling law, it's not a matter of if Robotaxi FSD will get here. It's when. "When" is anyone's guess. But if you can grok what I've said above, you should gain a lot of confidence that FSD V12 is key because it promises almost infinite improvement over time. It is the most important FSD release ever. The system is now in place to solve this. It will happen.

So shake those couches folks. It's very likely that FSD is fixin' to get really, really good.

(Disclaimer: While I do have a degree in computer science, I am not an AI expert. I'd love to get feedback from those who know this stuff better than I do. Am I right?)
 
Tesla can wait until investors give up on Rivian's money-losing ways, and then buy Rivian in a hostile take-over at pennies on the dollar... then drastically improve the efficiencies of their R1-S and R1-T, and gain an instant entry into the conventional-looking truck/SUV market (and the delivery truck market). :p

But seriously, there's a greater than 0 chance this could happen one day... and they'd likely fire 80% of the people.

This is academic because RJ Scaringe would likely veto any takeover but let’s play along.

If Tesla wanted entry into those markets, they can build products for a lot, lot less than it would cost to buy Rivian.
To get Rivian, they would have to pay a significant premium to current market cap. Probably 100%.
So you are looking at close to $30 billion and then they end with products and factories that nowhere as efficient as what Tesla could do with a clean sheet design and a brand that is nowhere as powerful as Tesla’s.

I can think of plenty of ways that money would be better spent.

If Tesla ever decides they need a conventional looking lifestyle trick, they can build one themselves.
 
This is academic because RJ Scaringe would likely veto any takeover but let’s play along.

If Tesla wanted entry into those markets, they can build products for a lot, lot less than it would cost to buy Rivian.
To get Rivian, they would have to pay a significant premium to current market cap. Probably 100%.
So you are looking at close to $30 billion and then they end with products and factories that nowhere as efficient as what Tesla could do with a clean sheet design and a brand that is nowhere as powerful as Tesla’s.

I can think of plenty of ways that money would be better spent.

If Tesla ever decides they need a conventional looking lifestyle trick, they can build one themselves.
I don't think you read my post!
- *wait* until investors give up on Rivian's money-losing ways
- buy Rivian in a hostile take-over at *pennies on the dollar*
- *drastically improve* the efficiencies of their R1-S and R1-T [and the delivery truck]
- fire 80% of the people
- there's a greater than 0 chance this could happen one day

So... yeah... pay $4B (number pulled out of my...), get rid of inefficient hardware, software, people... I'd now add the obvious: improve the efficiencies of the factories while they're at it. Saves them from locating/siting/permitting/building new factory(ies). Again, not likely, but plausible... if Rivian is still losing money (and out of cash) in a couple years, and all of Legacy Auto is trying to stay alive (and can't be going on a buying spree), and Tesla dows not know what to do with all their FCF... some get the point.
 
So much to get excited about. From top of my head:

fsd 12
interest rates
megapacks
delivery numbers
cyber delivery event
cyber specs n prices
cyber reviews
short capitulation
factory developments (Mexico, China Megapack, India, Nevada Semi)
US Highland
direct application of tax credit
4680 ramp
next Optimus video (real jobs on the prod’n line?)
AI day?

Some random thoughts
If AI is all a bit mysterious for you, as for me, Karpathy’s vid is essential viewing. My understanding leapt forward, and I’m still scraping the surface.
The type 1 v type 2 reasoning bit is a pause for thought.
2x2 is type one, AI does this. 17 x 34 is type two. It needs a calculator. Tom Cruise’s mother is Mary Lee Pfeiffer, who is Mary Pfeiffer’s son, is type two.
Does good driving require type two occasionally, or only rarely?

And a drive by wire hint from employee Bill Wright (take with a grain of salt)


One way or another I fail to see how these 200 doldrums can last much longer. Possible, but unlikely. Just too *many* ways it can break out. Cheers
 
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