Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Really considering liquidating most of my position, I’ve lost well into 7 figures from the highs and I see lower margins and more Elon issues on the horizon.

It’s been an amazing run but this company is run by a mental patient and I don’t have any faith in him short term. Teslas long term is bright but I fear a lot of pain in the next 2 years.
I first bought TSLA in 2013 at (split-adjusted) $2.53. It zoomed up to $12.93 before three fires happened on the same weekend - nothing to do with Tesla design or engineering, or BEVs in general. Just a coincidence. The stock fell to $7.73. Then it climbed to about $16.93 at which point Phil LeBeau asked Elon Musk "is the stock too high?" and Elon replied something like "yes." The stock dropped a bunch again. It dropped for 6 straight months to the Speigel Bottom in 2016... and I recall in 2018 the massive spike on August 7th 2018 when the Saudis said they had 5% of the company and wanted to buy more... and Elon then tweeted about the go-private plan. It went up and down quite a bit and had been dropping again for 5 straight months down to $12.27 in 2019 before it began its second meteoric rise to $415. MY POINT IS if I had sold and gotten out of TSLA at any of those times when it had been falling to or near to 50% of its ATH, I never would have been in the stock in 2019 when it climbed 33x from $12.27 up to $415 - which really changed the size of my portfolio. If you really want to get out of TSLA because you can't stand the swings up and down, well, ok, but you will miss out when the market cap goes above $5trillion.

We are seeing a very rare 5-straight-month drop in TSLA. With the company in a better position than it has ever been before, it's nonsense to think it will continue down or flat.
 
Last edited:
While I'm here... I wonder if Mr. Stephenson wants to claim this line and call it the Indicator Mk2 ?
1705709695553.png
 
I first bought TSLA in 2013 at (split-adjusted) $2.53. It zoomed up to $12.93 before three fires happened on the same weekend - nothing to do with Tesla design or engineering, or BEVs in general. Just a coincidence. The stock fell to $7.73. Then it climbed to about $16.93 at which point Phil LeBeau asked Elon Musk "is the stock too high?" and Elon replied something like "yes." The stock dropped a bunch again. It dropped for 6 straight months to the Speigel Bottom in 2016... and I recall in 2018 the massive spike on August 7th 2018 when tghe Saudis said they had 5% of the company and wanted to buy more... and Elon then tweeted about the go-private plan. It went up and down quite a bit and had been dropping again for 5 straight months down to $12.27 in 2019 before it began its second meteoric rise to $415. MY POINT IS if I had sold and gotten out of TSLA at any of those times when it had been falling to or near to 50% of its ATH, I never would have been in the stock in 2019 when it climbed 33x from $12.27 up to $415 - which really changed the size of my portfolio. If you really want to get out of TSLA because you can't stand the swings up and down, well, ok, but you will miss out when the market cap goes above $5trillion.

We are seeing a very rare 5-straight-month drop in TSLA. With the company in a better position than it has ever been before, it's nonsense to think it will continue down or flat.
Great post.
The big (unfortunate) difference between then and now is the growth trajectory and margin expansion. Right now there is a big “?” Over the whole sector and the legacy mfrs are loving this.

I think the team at Tesla is still hungry and motivated and second to none, but this will be trying as Tesla is just a bigger target than before.
 
True. Your evidence clearly shows, looking in the rearview gross PROFITS have been decreasing. Forward looking, gross PROFITS ought to increase throughout 2024 due to volume increase that should outpace further margin deterioration.

A.D. said gross EARNINGS. EBIT deducts OpEx and the after-effects of CapEx (Depreciation), but it does not deduct CapEx directly. Gross EARNINGS will increase throughout 2024 due to volume increase.

As is often the case, I think two people are partially correct here, depending on whether we are looking backwards or forwards AND whether we are discussing profits or earnings. It's okay for you to both be right.
IMG_5876.gif
 
you are not a true Tesla bull if you have not endured 21 quarters of sideways movement. we just started quarter# 9

(good news: Tesla typically goes up 10X or more over next 6 to 10 quarters. extrapolating, we could potentially have another 3 years or so of sideways movement followed by 10X or more. so, in next 6 years i am looking at 10X which is approximately 50% CAGR). no idea,what happens next but there is light at end of every tunnel (even 5 years long tunnel between 2014-2019)
 
Evidence is a bit mixed with some people still thinking we may have a recession. (Anything could happen in China.)

The macro goes in cycles.

The bigger picture is deflation with Tony Seba and others expecting the price of Energy, Transport, Labour and Food to decline.

In the long run I expect a "deflationary boom" and "abundance", because that is what Tony's price curves are predicting..

Never before in human history has humanity had cheap abundant energy, transport and communications.

Once humanity agrees on what the future will look like, there will be less division, more unity, and a happier society.

Tesla and Elon have had a substantial role in changing the future.. IMO the outcome is inevitable.
There is that "Never" word again.
The Industrial Revolution 1760-1840 did exactly that in labor, transportation and communication. Steam, Rail, and telegraph. During its time it was noted for reducing costs on an extreme level.
 
There is that "Never" word again.
The Industrial Revolution 1760-1840 did exactly that in labor, transportation and communication. Steam, Rail, and telegraph. During its time it was noted for reducing costs on an extreme level.
Fair point, but I would argue there are some subtle differences this time around.

The industrial revolution was built on Fossil Fuel, and that had some consequences:-
  • Ownership of resources was concentrated and unequal.
  • Resources were non-renewable, but the main issue was a lag in ramping up supply.
  • The lag above created inflation in times of economic growth feeding into many inflation->recession cycles.
  • Using Fossil Fuels damaged the environment.
This time around:-
  • Resources are more :- renewable, sustainable, global, equal and unlimited.
  • Deflation should be a semi-permanent trend, inflation should be easier to control. (Lag in ramping additional supply reduced).
  • Geography / resources isn't a major issue - most countries have roughly equal access to sufficient wind / sun.
  • There is an opportunity to repair and improve the environment.
  • Many countries have a declining birth-rate and an aging population - the labour problem needs to be solved.
  • Knowledge and skill are more abundant and widely distributed
  • Share ownership is much more widely distributed.
  • Many retirement incomes are linked to the share market and in many cases to Fossil Fuels - specifically oil stocks - (Farm estates may have been the 1760 parallel).
Sure in the end, we get a whole new system in both cases, which doesn't match the previous system, the new system brings limitations and challenges.

The size of the disruption and the new opportunities needs to be considered when evaluating the future of all companies. We could argue that tech companies are immune. But the opportunity to start new tech companies is now more global, equal, and available, especially as energy and internet access become more widely available.
 
Last edited:
Wonder what percentage you fine folks have your net worth tied up in TSLA?

Me I'm well over 90%.

If you count the value of my house 75%, give or take. But over 95% if you look at my bank account ;-)
I suspect there are a lot of small fish like me for whom TSLA is the single-point-of-failure/success: if it goes well, I can actually buy a better house (family just increased in size...), if not it's a bit of a problem.
I'll still work all my life anyway.
 


We are seeing a very rare 5-straight-month drop in TSLA. With the company in a better position than it has ever been before, it's nonsense to think it will continue down or flat.
I have never watched daily TSLA movements closely, although I’ve been fairly obsessive about fundamentals. That is what I have done since early days for TSLA. Because I followed that process for AAPL back in Newton days TSLA is not my largest holding. I’ve sold only to pay tax bills and buy houses.

That has been a remarkably peaceful life. Today my primary source of funding daily life is AAPL dividends. I don’t expect anything similar from TSLA for another decade or so. Those of us who’ve followed that process seem to have done rather well. Buffet, Munger and the ancient Graham have given excellent advice. The only limitation is that they often missed technological advances.

Munger departed only once AFAIK. BYD produces some of their most spectacular gains! Patient even there.

To put my conservatism in context I have done seven complete startups in seven different countries, plus three in the US. Those have all been high risk, potentially high reward choices. For all my publicly traded securities I have chosen those I regarded as low risk, albeit a long view. That is one reason why I eschew any derivitives, since I have made a carer of taking high risk but ONLY when I understood those risks. It might seems that seven different countries was guaranteed to test any conceivable promise of risk understanding. In the event all seven were either acquired by a larger entity or still exist.

When I argue so strenuously for HODL in publicly traded securities, it is a simple reflection that retail investors cannot have equal information to that of institutional participants. Without equal knowledge partipating in those markets is gambling without a crucial skill (i.e. knowledge) component. No matter how deeply analytical the retail investor may be, legally acquired market activity data will always win. In short, the playing field is NOT level.

Given my own fairly long history, I have lost when I failed to evaluate known risks correctly. Even in the really odd countries on my list (e.g. Yemen, Iran) the risks were clear and known, so mitigates were possible. In securities markets the fundamental difference is that the risks are known, but the only litigants is to be a market-maker or the equivalent. Even a giant insurance company such as American International Group, with tremendous expertise still underwrote securitized asset credit risk without understanding the origination process. They failed. Even giants such as Deutsche Bank thought they understood, but did not.
There is a long litany of corporate failures even including Nobel Prize winners who failed to understand the consequences of too much concentration, so ignored boundary conditions in their own models. They failed.

Especially now, with market manipulation so dramatically evident, many of us blame much of this on Elon Musk. Flawed he is, but also with an acute understanding of markets and financial risk. For all of us now is probably a good time to buy and hold, but with the recognition that market timing is fraught without having contemporaneous access to actual trading data. For the 'civilians' that privileged information is illegal in the US if we act upon it.

In short HODL and have a minimum of five years planning horizon. Then, watch assiduously (i.e. with great care and perseverance) for anything that reflects fundamental change in future probable value. If finding that, sell! and don't look back.
That means,;
if you really believe that Elon Musk is a major pending catastrophe, SELL and forget about it;
If you really believe that Tesla will be supplanted by competitors, SELL and forget about it;

However, if you think Tesla Energy, automotive, robotics, factory automation, gigapresses and relentless search for greater efficiency, plus the only direct sales model successful in recent memory all will succeed and thrive then HODL and enjoy the fireworks!
 
Last edited:
Fair point, but I would argue there are some subtle differences this time around.

The industrial revolution was built on Fossil Fuel, and that had some consequences:-
  • Ownership of resources was concentrated and unequal.
  • Resources were non-renewable, but the main issue was a lag in ramping up supply.
  • The lag above created inflation in times of economic growth feeding into many inflation->recession cycles.
  • Using Fossil Fuels damaged the environment.
This time around:-
  • Resources are more :- renewable, sustainable, global, equal and unlimited.
  • Deflation should be a semi-permanent trend, inflation should be easier to control. (Lag in ramping additional supply reduced).
  • Geography / resources isn't a major issue - most countries have roughly equal access to sufficient wind / sun.
  • There is an opportunity to repair and improve the environment.
  • Many countries have a declining birth-rate and an aging population - the labour problem needs to be solved.
  • Knowledge and skill are more abundant and widely distributed
  • Share ownership is much more widely distributed.
  • Many retirement incomes are linked to the share market and in many cases to Fossil Fuels - specifically oil stocks - (Farm estates may have been the 1760 parallel).
Sure in the end, we get a whole new system in both cases, which doesn't match the previous system, the new system brings limitations and challenges.

The size of the disruption and the new opportunities needs to be considered when evaluating the future of all companies. We could argue that tech companies are immune. But the opportunity to start new tech companies is now more global, equal, and available, especially as energy and internet access become more widely available.
I really want to agree with your assertions.
However, there are some major negative consequences as well that are analogous with the Industrial revolution:
Consider GINI coefficient evolution from 1820 to today:
Like it or not the income distributions are now becoming even more skewed than they have been heretofore. In short in today's wool the technologically adept have rapidly rising wealth and income, while the illiterates and non-technologically adept are encountering lower income.
For much more diverse data try the OECD:
Using OECD dat it is difficult to miss the dramatic differences evolving in the OECD 28 countries:

In short, the Industrial Revolution installed, for the first time in human history, a working elite who managed enterprises with rapidly increasing scale, then, by consequence, made much of the traditional peasantry into industrial laborers, losing residential and food semi-independence on the way.

In today's technological revolution income and wealth distribution is again becoming more unequal, and the importance of sound scientific and technological education is accelerating. It is no accident that Singapore and Estonia are two notable beneficiaries; both have small populations, superb health care, education and deep commitment to adopting new technologies.

In most other countries the situation is nearing crisis as populations shrink below replacement level (even China!), education and health care become less effective but more costly.

It si all of this that Elon Musk considers when he laments lack of engineering talent and need for raised with rates. For Tesla the consequences are profound:
-from robotaxi to Optimus to Giappress and Octovalve and much more...
-Tesla is moving towards fewer line workers but increased skill levels among those who remain;
-engineering talent becomes the rapidly increasing demand while;
-everything from factories to development becomes less labor intensive and more skill intensive.

That is precisely why Tesla, by mission definition, foresees a world in which the manual labor that has been ubiquitous in human history becomes largely eliminated. What happens then?

Elon argues for universal basic income. The implications go far beyond that, though, as few societies are even perceiving the impact now well on it's way.

Frankly, for TSLA all will probably be mostly sunny, hence HODL.

For traditional manufacturers the future is mostly bleak. Those who resist will fail.
For the fossil fuel industry and large consumers of fossil fuel rapid adaption is possible but unlikely.
As with the landed gentry of the pre-industrial age, many will hang on for a very long time, but increasingly threadbare.

If ever there is an argument for long term success for TSLA, all this macro-development is screaming the bullish story, the basic energy revolution repeating itself. The only question is whether this will happen quickly enough for humanity to thrive.
 
Wonder what percentage you fine folks have your net worth tied up in TSLA?

Me I'm well over 90%.

Tesla ~ 13% net worth and ~15% investments. Rest of investment is mutual funds (no other stocks) yielding fine year to year returns but no potential explosive upside like Tesla. Speculative investments should best be a minority of investments unless young & single generating excess income over fixed expenses. I HODL Tesla and may buy more well under $200 because I'm aiming for generational wealth. I'm old & retired. YMMV.
 
Last edited:
We are seeing a very rare 5-straight-month drop in TSLA. With the company in a better position than it has ever been before, it's nonsense to think it will continue down or flat.
I share the sentiment of @gtrplyr1. I've been holding since 2013 and all in since 2020 and while the long term prospects with Tesla are better than any other company, from what I can see happening with the world, the near term is bleak for Tesla share holders. The only thing that can move the stock price right now is FSD and the company (Elon) has clearly shifted focus to Bot. This means the next share price run isn't going to start for at least a year, probably more like 2+ years. Sitting on TSLA shares while MSFT, GOOG and NVDA are likely to continue running, seems foolish.

The market now demands results that hit the bottom line. This means Tesla needs to launch Robotaxi or, FSD has to become so appealing that most owners purchase it. I'm sure a lot of you are thinking Tesla Energy, CT ramping, Model Y refresh, etc. I'm sorry but no. Those things are simply not going to be enough to drive to new highs. Sorry, I just made it too easy for myself; those things aren't enough to drive the SP past 300.