Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[generalenthu]

Just comes up a paywall for me. But I quoted some cases from a similar article (based on the headline anyway) earlier- which mostly was just rando lawyers speculating, plus mentioning two cases I already mentioned.... though in those there was a cash judgement to split up, which is NOT the case here....from the other story in the vein (dunno if it's same as yours due to yours being paywalled)

Lawyer fee awards have become a hot topic in courts in Delaware, where more than 300 S&P 500 companies are incorporated. In 2023, a Delaware judge awarded $267mn to lawyers representing shareholders who agreed a $1bn settlement with Dell Technologies over its complex $24bn cash-and-stock merger with VMware. That fee has been appealed against to the Delaware Supreme Court by multiple investment funds owning VMware shares who claim the amount is excessive.

The highest fee ever awarded to plaintiffs’ lawyers in the Delaware chancery court was $285mn in 2012, which was equal to about 15 per cent of the damages in a lawsuit challenging the merger between two natural resource companies, Southern Peru and Minera Mining

In the past decade, Delaware courts have cracked down on the previous long-standing practice of awarding nominal fees in routine M&A litigation that followed many deals, resulting in little to no concrete benefit for the shareholders in question. Instead it has been willing to grant large lawyer payouts based on big judgments or settlements where lawyers involved could demonstrate how their work directly benefited plaintiffs.

It sounds to me like there is nothing stopping the judge from citing a benefit to the shareholders and ordering Tesla to pay the lawyers. The optics look horrible. I am sure that the lawyers are gonna make a case for a couple of billion and the judge may reduce it to a few hundred million. Would be interesting if Tesla indeed goes through a HQ relocation before that and refuses to pay.

 

[The Accountant]

Wow! $1,500,000 for red paint? It's Ultra Red

Joking - these are Chilean Pesos.
It appears that deliveries to Chile may arrive by April:

 

[Buckminster]

I think that everything about Elon's comp package has been said by one side or the other. So further back-and-forth should cease now. Only new information please, and thank you. That's a thinly veiled threat.

I'm just getting started...
Elon Compensation Package
Plus the related:
Delaware to Texas Incorporation *NEW*

Need for Tesla Advertising / PR Chicago car show

4680 cell design, chassis integration & factory discussion for investors CATL LFP equipment

HW4 & HW5 Discussion HW4 laughing in China

ARK Big Ideas discussion 2024 report out

 

[Knightshade]

It sounds to me like there is nothing stopping the judge from citing a benefit to the shareholders and ordering Tesla to pay the lawyers. The optics look horrible. I am sure that the lawyers are gonna make a case for a couple of billion and the judge may reduce it to a few hundred million. Would be interesting if Tesla indeed goes through a HQ relocation before that and refuses to pay.

yeah the two cases you quote are the same as I already quoted previously.

For the Dell one for example the lawyers got 15% of the damages Dell paid out. But in this case the "damages" is $0.00 and nobody is paying anybody any money at all- Elon just loses the option grants.

Tesla does get to unwind the previously charged expense of the options being issued- which you can argue is a benefit to the company-- but that's only a small fraction of the 56B number being tossed around- and then lawyers could only ask for a small fraction of THAT number.

On top of which, since they obviously will still need to pay Elon something- potentially even more than they already did- the company might end up, as a result of the lawsuit, with a benefit of...nothing. Or worse.


As to fleeing the state to avoid a judgement- Civil judgments are typically subject to the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the Federal Constitution and individual States will usually have some sort of legislation regarding precisely how that is dealt with.

So they could just go to a Texas court with a copy of the delaware judgement and the court under the Uniform Enforcement of Judgements Act will initiate an enforcement process and issue a Texas judgement.

One could also file a normal lawsuit to enforce in Texas, but the first method is easier.

So no, this wouldn't get them out of paying it. But might jack up the legal fees they owe further if they kept trying to avoid doing so- so while they might well appeal the original judgement I don't expect they'd try moving states and refusing to pay it once appeals are settled.

 

[GhostSkater]

Configurator live in Chile for 3 and Y, starts at the equivalent of $42.8k, if it comes to Brazil in a similar price will be a really good deal

https://twitter.com/x/status/1753116155605397542

 

[Drumheller]

TSLA moved green while this thread was locked. So, maybe the moderators could help a stock out and lock this thread during trading hours.

This is my technical analysis contribution

 

[Artful Dodger]

What the information provided for this ruling confirms is that aspects of the company are run on Elons whims and the board is composed of yes men and women.

Why didn't you nominate Ross Gerber to the Board then? He'd take care of your interests, same way he took car of Dan O'Dowd's interests.

Oh, that's right: those 'yes men and women' are elected by a vote of minority shareholders, because Elon and Kimbal abstain from the vote. The Board represents the will of the shareholders. You're going to have to reconcile with that.

EDIT to add: if you can name the former Director who was voted out recently, you've begun to realize that shareholders ultimately control the Board (if you can't, you likely never will).

 

[carterm2]

Here is a Chinese podcast (you can turn on English subtitle) interviewing an ex 7-year Tesla AI employee, on his thought on TSLA, his personal investment, and his experience in Tesla AI team.
This host bought his air-b&b house, where they recorded this interview, with his TSLA investent.

Thanks for this video! To me this is one of the best sources of information I have seen in a while.

Incomplete summary incoming.


I watched > 1/2 of it (interesting history and feel for the AI groups transitions as well as info on vision and lidar which is missing from the ChatGPT summary.)

I attempted to run a transcript provided by (Youtube Transcript Generator - Free and Fast | Kome) through ChatGPT in order to create an outline for anyone who is too busy to watch the entire thing.

I submitted this 6 line transcript to ChatGPT as follows. (ChatGPT had access to the full transcript in a previous attempt that failed.)

...
I happened to interview someone who had worked at Tesla for 7 years FSD Autopilot Engineer, Yu Zhenhua He is not only a former employee of Tesla But also a long-term investor like us He firmly believes that Tesla is an AI technology company And thinks the stock can still increase tenfold In the interview, we discussed the recent earnings report Why the story of electric vehicles has already been realized Why Tesla is an AI company Discussed the history of FSD from his insider's perspective Competitors, the little-known background behind the controversies Elon Musk and the company culture And why he believes the latest V12 and End-to-End Autonomous Driving technology
...

and here is ChatGPT's response...

ChatGPT 3.5
Great! Based on the information you provided about the interview with Yu Zhenhua, a former FSD Autopilot Engineer at Tesla, here is a bullet-point summary:

• Background of Interviewee:
  • Yu Zhenhua, a former FSD Autopilot Engineer at Tesla with 7 years of experience.
  • Long-term investor in Tesla, shares a belief in significant stock potential.
• Perspective on Tesla:
  • Firm belief that Tesla is an AI technology company.
  • Foresees Tesla's stock potentially increasing tenfold.
• Topics Discussed in the Interview:
  • Analysis of recent Tesla earnings report.
  • Exploration of why the story of electric vehicles has already been realized.
  • Insight into why Tesla is considered an AI company.
• Insider's Perspective on FSD:
  • Discussion on the history of Full Self-Driving (FSD) technology.
  • Insights into the development of FSD from an insider's viewpoint.
• Competitors and Controversies:
  • Examination of competitors in the autonomous driving space.
  • Exploration of lesser-known background behind controversies related to FSD.
• Elon Musk and Company Culture:
  • Insights into Elon Musk's role in Tesla and its impact.
  • Discussion on the unique company culture at Tesla.
• Latest Technological Developments:
  • Why Yu Zhenhua believes in the significance of the latest V12 and End-to-End Autonomous Driving technology.

This summary covers key aspects of the interview, highlighting Yu Zhenhua's insights on Tesla's technology, stock potential, FSD history, competitors, controversies, company culture, and the latest technological advancements.

 

[hitchhiker]

Would be interesting if Tesla indeed goes through a HQ relocation before that and refuses to pay.

It doesn't work that way. At the time of the infraction, the suit and the ruling they were incorporated in Delaware and subject to Delaware law. If they move to Texas, then Texas law would take effect for any actions they take after that. But I believe previous actions done while they were still incorporated in Delaware would still be under Delaware law.

 

[Webeevdrivers]

Configurator live in Chile for 3 and Y, starts at the equivalent of $42.8k, if it comes to Brazil in a similar price will be a really good deal

https://twitter.com/x/status/1753116155605397542

Which factory will supply the Chilean market?

 

[Artful Dodger]

Don't forget SpaceX's rocket engine facility in Moody about 60 miles north. You would be surprised how far sound travels.

Haha, not surprised! Over-the-horizon artillery detonations sound like distant thunder. Which brings us to the next obvious prediction:

With Elon concentrating his business interests around the State Capital of Texas, its just a matter of time before he runs for election for a seat in the Texas legislature.

DON'T LAUGH! The Texas Leg. only meets for one session every two years, and LOTS of other business owners (like car dealerships) also hold seats in the Legislature (how do you think they've kept the antiquated Dealer laws from being recinded?)

Elon + staff would make easy work of that extra task, something Elon would greatly enjoy, no doubt find fun& relaxing, AND make all his other business efforts LESS stressful and subject to specious legislation. With Twitter in Austin, it'd be Awestin! Elon would likely get 50K votes just from employees and family.

I'm NOT saying Elon will run for Governor of Texas (even though the U.S. Constitution allows it). I'm also NOT saying he'd be a shoo-in whenever he wants it. I AM saying that while a certain fringe wants Texas to secede, Elon wants Texas to succeed! He's the ultimate middle-of-the-road candidate.

In Texas, he will make his stand... And ultimately, gentrify Mordor.

#PREDICT

 

[Artful Dodger]

FUN FACT:

Q: How many Tesla employees receive higher pay than Elon Musk?

A: 140,473

 

[MrMoo]

FUN FACT:

Q: How many Tesla employees receive higher pay than Elon Musk?

A: 140,473

Now do how many Tesla employees also work at other companies half the time.

 

[GhostSkater]

Which factory will supply the Chilean market?

Good question

 

[loquitur]

It'll take a few years for corporations to trust the new Texas business courts. Verdicts that favor corporations can be appealed. Only when favorable verdicts towards corporations are upheld would Texas be a trusted state to incorporate a LLC. I believe the board of directors might also want to consider relocating to Nevada, which has a track record that favors corporations.

Your post together with your previous one is informational and intriguing, in light of the reputation
of other Texas district courts. I'm alluding to both the East and West Texas district courts being
"rocket dockets" for patent troll lawsuits.

At first it was East Texas, where juries were shepherded to give crazy verdicts against large corporations
like Apple based on percent of product sales revenue from entities which made no product at all -- they just
bought patents and levered a few against deep pockets, claiming that one abstract idea rules over
many thousands of implemented (& often patented themselves!) ideas in a device like the iPhone.

Then it moved to the West Texas district court, per the article below. (Searching for "Texas patent trolls",
it's one of many.)

Texas’ new patent rocket docket sparks letter of concern from U.S. senators

WACO – The emergence of a new rocket docket for patent litigation in the state of Texas has at least two U.S. senators worried.

setexasrecord.com

So, what does "business friendly" mean for the new court? For trolls, too? Tesla is not immune because
they are becoming a deep pocket target as well. Further, the Tesla patent stance favoring cross-licensing
with other auto manufacturers does not apply to "patent assertion entities" aka trolls.

 

[Singuy]

Thanks for this video! To me this is one of the best sources of information I have seen in a while.

Incomplete summary incoming.


I watched > 1/2 of it (interesting history and feel for the AI groups transitions as well as info on vision and lidar which is missing from the ChatGPT summary.)

I attempted to run a transcript provided by (Youtube Transcript Generator - Free and Fast | Kome) through ChatGPT in order to create an outline for anyone who is too busy to watch the entire thing.

I submitted this 6 line transcript to ChatGPT as follows. (ChatGPT had access to the full transcript in a previous attempt that failed.)

...
I happened to interview someone who had worked at Tesla for 7 years FSD Autopilot Engineer, Yu Zhenhua He is not only a former employee of Tesla But also a long-term investor like us He firmly believes that Tesla is an AI technology company And thinks the stock can still increase tenfold In the interview, we discussed the recent earnings report Why the story of electric vehicles has already been realized Why Tesla is an AI company Discussed the history of FSD from his insider's perspective Competitors, the little-known background behind the controversies Elon Musk and the company culture And why he believes the latest V12 and End-to-End Autonomous Driving technology
...

and here is ChatGPT's response...

ChatGPT 3.5
Great! Based on the information you provided about the interview with Yu Zhenhua, a former FSD Autopilot Engineer at Tesla, here is a bullet-point summary:

• Background of Interviewee:
  • Yu Zhenhua, a former FSD Autopilot Engineer at Tesla with 7 years of experience.
  • Long-term investor in Tesla, shares a belief in significant stock potential.
• Perspective on Tesla:
  • Firm belief that Tesla is an AI technology company.
  • Foresees Tesla's stock potentially increasing tenfold.
• Topics Discussed in the Interview:
  • Analysis of recent Tesla earnings report.
  • Exploration of why the story of electric vehicles has already been realized.
  • Insight into why Tesla is considered an AI company.
• Insider's Perspective on FSD:
  • Discussion on the history of Full Self-Driving (FSD) technology.
  • Insights into the development of FSD from an insider's viewpoint.
• Competitors and Controversies:
  • Examination of competitors in the autonomous driving space.
  • Exploration of lesser-known background behind controversies related to FSD.
• Elon Musk and Company Culture:
  • Insights into Elon Musk's role in Tesla and its impact.
  • Discussion on the unique company culture at Tesla.
• Latest Technological Developments:
  • Why Yu Zhenhua believes in the significance of the latest V12 and End-to-End Autonomous Driving technology.

This summary covers key aspects of the interview, highlighting Yu Zhenhua's insights on Tesla's technology, stock potential, FSD history, competitors, controversies, company culture, and the latest technological advancements.

One key note that's important. The ex-Tesla employee believes Tesla gave away too much of their self driving secret sauce on AI day. He has noticed during Xiaomi's autonomous presentation, there were many key words pulled from Tesla's AI day. He believes some of these key words were extremely important, and have help saved competitors a lot of time. He then continue to say how none of the Chinese competitors are currently using a mapless system.

However IMO I guess it probably doesn't matter as end to end requires a boatload of quality GPUs that are banned from being sold in China. So if they are trying to get there using compute, it's not gonna happen for awhile. Eventually the models become so big that using old GPUs will simply grind to a halt as memory bandwidth is currently more of a bottleneck than GPU compute.

 

[Usain]

Perhaps an unpopular opinion here.

I don’t like the reaction on the court issue. Elon barely had time to read it and already putting out a poll if they should move to Texas. What is this for childish behaviour? And then a lot of people agreeing with him too.

I am of the opinion that clearly mistakes have been made. Why not learn from them and deal with them instead of fleeing to another jurisdiction because you done like if someone is critical of you and how it is done? Tesla is a young company and like children young companies make mistakes. Learn from them instead of running away.

I believe that moving incorporation to Texas has been in the works for quite some time.

 

[Singuy]

Boom, something just hit me about DOJO and why it's being pursued.

There's a ban on AI GPUs being imported to China. There's no possible way to train FSD in China as their road and driving behavior is wildly different than ours. There's no way for Tesla to capture their data as it only stays in China. Dojo is not a product that's for sale and will be exported to a company owned by the US, not a joint venture.

Check mate Chinese FSD competitor...check mate.

Edit: Of course this fully allow competitors to use Dojo for training purposes since they are practically running Tesla code already...and there's no other alternative. As it's supervised from an American owned company, it will not cause any national security issues.

 

[The Accountant]

• Tesla US - Best January ever
• +65% vs Jan 2023

I've sent a message to Roland asking if he could share his source.

 

[elasalle]

Without 2024 guidance… what a good number for 2024 Q1 deliveries?