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Up to 40,000 EVs over 5 years is comical considering India's >1.4 billion population. Tesla sold some where 500,000 in last year in China (quick googling shows either 603k or 456k). No doubt India consumers has less overall purchasing power, but less than 10% in five years than what's sold in China?

Can't say that "generous" EV import allowance would make any difference to any automaker.
This was my initial thought as well, and presumably, Tesla would like to establish the usual infrastructure (service centers and charging stations) and get a market understanding of potential sales, prior to going too long on establishing a factory. Supporting 8000 cars / year, would be a ridiculous additional cash drain while building/ramping a factory.

In 30 seconds, I can develop a better plan:

Year 1: Allow to sell 25,000 imports with lower tarrif to test market.
Year 2: Commit 500,000 million to new factory. Allow 50,000 imports.
Year 3 - 5: Continue factory build, hitting certain metrics. Allow 100,000 imports/year.
Completion of factory: Any excess of 100,000 car sales can be imported to make up for lower factory output while ramping.
Factory ramps over 100,000, high tariff returns on imports.
 
I'd buy a Model 2 hot-hatch, in addition to our current Tesla fleet... would be perfect for city driving and weekly grocery shop, going to gigs, etc.

Has to be a hatch though, hopefully Tesla aren't so abysmally stupid to make a sedan again...
Or, as long as the charging is decent, road trips.

Some people (like us) just want smaller, more maneuverable vehicles. Current Teslas have large turning radii.
 
Has anybody ever made money in India?



That's 3. Those were the first 3 I searched.
 
Yep, agreed. FSD progress for the past few years has been slow and steady, so most people (myself included) expect (assume) the same rate of improvement from 12.3 on.

BUT things have changed. FSD being end to end now is a game changer when it comes to iteration times, that coupled with compute power being a non factor in the very near future (soon) could enable FSD to improve at a much faster rate from here on out. The difference between 12.2 and 12.3 seems to show that.

This is why FSD could potentially be a huge surprise to the upside in the near future, possibly even this year. I'm still skeptical because its taken so long to get here that I'm used to being pessimistic on FSD, but I feel its also important to realize things have changed regarding FSD improvements too.

I also agree with you on the Robotaxi timing. Gen 3 is slated to start production late next year, about a year and a half from today. If FSD keeps improving like it has been recently then I shudder to imagine how good it will be by then! 😁
I surely hope so.

Never underestimate exponential growth. One limiting factor was computer power (Dojo). We will soon have more than enough of it and with other millions of miles driven by Teslas around the word the perfect data source - us TESLA drivers - you can imagine. The big steps we already see from FSD should result in a wide rollout across North America before summer. Followed by parts of Europe at the end of 2024.
The "Robotaxi" function should be right on time when the first cars designed for it roll out Gigafactory Austin next year.

WE ARE THE FUTURE

The raw miles driven by Tesla is in the billions of miles per year. But now I doubt how those miles can actually transfer into an advantage which no other automakers/self-driving companies can match, the advantage perceived and touted by Tesla community. The reason:


Chuck's left turn is really not that "edgy": probably one encounter for every 20 to 30 miles urban driving. Chuck himself likely did his left turn hundreds of times alone. For such a not so edge case, Tesla has been collecting data for weeks, according to Chuck's X posts. We've been told that the FSD team is able to pull any video for any cases when needed, which is essential to the perceived advantage of billions of miles driven. The intensive collection of Chuck's left turn seems contradicting to that capability.

Hopefully I'm wrong on this.
 
I surely hope so.



The raw miles driven by Tesla is in the billions of miles per year. But now I doubt how those miles can actually transfer into an advantage which no other automakers/self-driving companies can match, the advantage perceived and touted by Tesla community. The reason:


Chuck's left turn is really not that "edgy": probably one encounter for every 20 to 30 miles urban driving. Chuck himself likely did his left turn hundreds of times alone. For such a not so edge case, Tesla has been collecting data for weeks, according to Chuck's X posts. We've been told that the FSD team is able to pull any video for any cases when needed, which is essential to the perceived advantage of billions of miles driven. The intensive collection of Chuck's left turn seems contradicting to that capability.

Hopefully I'm wrong on this.
Tesla’s test-running this left turn far predates the current saga. Chuck was doing this turn and posting it on YouTube for a long, long time with little appreciable progress until Tesla first sent people there to specifically work on it and that’s when the creep barrier appeared, the car learned how to stop in the median, etc. Would need to go back and look to be sure, but Chuck first spotted test vehicles there probably like 2 years ago now.

All this mass video collection, AI training and autolabelling, but boots on the ground is what made things happen and seemingly boots on the ground are still necessary to make things happen.
 
This leaves me thinking of Elon's desire to avoid the Gen3 and go straight to Robotaxi manufacturing. He's had a clear vision of sudden, rapid development on the FSD front all along.

I am so glad Franz talked Elon out of that and convinced him to do the consumer Gen3 with a steering wheel and controls. Whenever I think of how Elon didn't want to bother with a normal Gen3 car I shudder and question my entire TSLA investment, LOL! 😂
 
Seasonality in the automotive sector is strong. Everybody knows that Q1 is the weakest for car sales: How Important Are Seasonal Trends in the Automotive Sector?

Quarter over quarter comparisons from Q4 to Q1 are largely going to be driven by that seasonality. Year over year is much better for assessing growth.
While considering that we should note the numerous effects of unwinding “the wave”. Nearly by definition as volumes rise and the artificial quarter end concentrations decline we also see:
1. Relative rise in seasonality of sales;
2. Reduced COGS from better staffing balance, reduced quarter-end promotions;
3. Reduced shipping costs and logistics management dysfunction.

Without question the other events of the quarter such as Red Sea Houthi impediments, Brandenburg terrorist attack and Chinese New Year all provide opportunity for both FUD and legitimate questions.

Most of us also understand the FUD and regulatory attacks including Delaware Chsncery Court , more SEC investigations, IIHS absurdity in reporting ONLY their view of driver attention devices ignoring all navigation aids while reporting this as total evaluation. Anybody who is aware of the history of that organization understands them to be totally and exclusively serving auto insurance companies whose interests are always unequal to those of consumers.

All of those influences are within historical precedent. What is not so much is the advent of SEC categorization of short-sellers as ‘investors’ which exacerbates the role of market makers and other entities eganged in officially supported manipulation. For context see @Papafox.

None of these issues are likely to effect alteration for those of us who HODL. For any active retail trader all these things act to increase risk and reduce odds of success.

Netting all of this we have the core reality that TSLA guidance has established that 2024 is a transition year. So, many of us are conditioned to see anything like this as disaster. Some of us expect that better growth will be forthcoming in 2025 and 2026 as geographic and product expansion growth returns. We need not think of FSD or Optimus to understand that, although those may happen.

All we need to do is consider increasing supply of batteries at reduced costs (e.g. 4680 from more thst one source, new 2170 from Panasonic and others), increased revenue from ( e.g.Superchargers, Cybertruck, Semi, various TE products) and even the refreshed Model 3 and Model Y ( better prices and lower costs). Of course there are other factors.

So here we are in panic mode because all is going as expected. Despite awareness we’re somehow pining for massive TSLA price rises as happened from time to time.

Everyone. Should. chill! Securities prices are a roller coaster ride for emotions. Emotional roller coasters are painful companions for anybody. For anybody who saw ‘War Games’ the cardinal rule applies for anyone who is in securities markets and not entitled to be a Market Maker or beneficiary of securities lending. “ the only way to win is not to play the game”.

For the investors among us it’s quite hard to keep perspective. Just do not try to time the market. It’s nearly impossible to resist, but market timing itself is the enemy of long term wealth enhancements.

The foregoing are my opinions, learned during boom and bust multiple times. Clearly some people like Ken Griffin, say, find a way to know better, while others like, say, Warren Buffet has done well my making good judgements and waiting. Still others, like Eon Musk and Jeff Bezos invent better solutions. For most more or less normal people emulating Mr Buffet is possible, but not the other two.

If the previous paragraph makes sense to you; chill! Then obsessively watch to find out if the fundamental have changed. If they have not, keep obsessively watching. If you see the fundamentals changing (e.g. cash flow going negative, dividends beginning, unexplained insiders selling); if then, sell and save what you can.

For me, I watch results and thus far have sold only to buy houses and give money away. Those are to provide different satisfactions, not investment.
 
I am so glad Franz talked Elon out of that and convinced him to do the consumer Gen3 with a steering wheel and controls. Whenever I think of how Elon didn't want to bother with a normal Gen3 car I shudder and question my entire TSLA investment, LOL! 😂

It didn't affect me so strongly. I can relate to Elon's perspective of "the sooner, the better" for Robotaxi, as far as saving lives, reducing costs, and achieving the mission are concerned.

I'd like to have a Gen3, but the inevitability of the Robotaxi will become all-encompassing once it is deployed. I'm also honest about the fact that the "car owner" is a dying breed represented less and less in later generations following the aging Boomers. (of which I'm one)

Based upon affordability alone, once production ramps to provide adequate availability, there will be a time in the "closer than most think" future where driving your own car will be considered quaint, at best.

They are The Robotaxi, car ownership will be assimilated.
 
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Has anyone seen anything on V12.3 that suggests we won't be rich (again..) this year?

I might need to keep these threads warm:
Tesla Network prerequisites

Tesla Network / Robotaxi Business Model

Tesla to license Autopilot / FSD
Everybody is watching for their particular V12 confirmation.

For me and the background I come from which is a very high quality and critical product world, I don't see that end to end NN has a timely method of validation.

That validation has to be signed off by QA. At some point after FSD becomes a true product the board is going to receive a presentation from QA and they are going to give direction to QA as to whether they are satisfied with the job QA is doing to assure a quality product is being properly reviewed in compliance with QA procedures. Today we have a V11 which is really an Alpha (not feature complete yet (beta) but suitable for wide testing of existing features). IMO

The limited test group suggests to me that QA validation has not happened and the very small "test" group is part of an engineering initiative.

The nature of the group is interesting and there is a slight suggestion that this is a test of a validation method that might be related to a double blind placebo controlled clinical study. There could be more said here but it is mostly speculative.

I can understand how a chip can be validated such as DOJO or the FSD board. I can understand how a compiler, programming or method can be validated. I don't know if a method exists for QA validation of a file of weights?

QA has to develop and proceduralize a method to determine when a "product" that is simply a file of weights meets the design requirements (safe when used as intended).

It seems to me we don't know if Tesla QA is satisfied that they can sign off on a release document for wide distribution of a "product" (file of weights) for application by the FSD inference engine that is by it's nature critical (a potential safety risk to the user and the public).

I think this can be achieved but I just have not been convinced that they have it yet. A much wider release of a V12 product would be that indication. To a lessor extent ceasing distribution of V11 might also be a hint.

One possible approach might be to go straight for a full release candidate that is so feature complete and high performance that the degree of safety improvement is defensible for a QA validation and release. The attention to expanding compute resources seems suggestive here. YMMV
 
I'd buy a Model 2 hot-hatch, in addition to our current Tesla fleet... would be perfect for city driving and weekly grocery shop, going to gigs, etc.

Has to be a hatch though, hopefully Tesla aren't so abysmally stupid to make a sedan again...
Don’t forget the ‘hot’ part. I have really adored those all my driving life, beginning with a Lotus Cortina back before most of us were born,
a Mazda R100 and others from Fiat, Peugeot, etc. My Model 3 Performance was great but Just Too Big and Not A Hatch. Every time I drive one I really want a Tesla version. It can be priced with other stellar examples, at 100% or more over the base so long as the. Interior and the performance are right.

FWIW, long ago when I was evaluating product profitability for a famous OEM I was surprised to see the base models priced at slightly above marginal cost. The total car line profits came from their high performance version, that sold at more than double the base but cost only about 20% more to build. Later, with another famous OEM the identical was true. FWIW, just look at any typical OEM that has a Hot Hatch, or a High Performance variant line and the same will be true. Vastly larger check out the ancient Mercedes 280 SEL vs 300 SEL 6.3. This pattern even worked for giants.

Tesla has been much more modest, to be sure, but not exempt. When thinking of Gen 3 they certainly may duplicate the ‘hit hatch’ formula.

Some time I may try to explain all this rationally from a buyer perspective. May, but won’t.
In full disclosure I did own a Mercedes 300 SEL 6.3, bought used.
 
I think the bottom is around. I'm buying every share I could because it seems everyone secretly wants a piece of it... Not a financial advice 😆

No one know where the "bottom" will be. On your second point, I've said prior that my enthusiasm for acquiring shares has been muted, first by a little and more recently by a lot. To the point that available funds are now more likely to find themselves invested in other alternatives rather than TSLA. Others here have expressed a similar change in perspective, and that by itself can put downward pressure on the stock price.
 
It's kinda nuts that people have gotten so used to reusable rockets that, yesterday, SpaceX launched the ISS to orbit (in one launch) with a non-reusable Starship rocket. They now just have to solve reusability.

I'm starting to wonder what this means for global cargo/shipping in the next half a decade...

 
Looks like 5 days in a row TSLA takes a dive right after open....@Papafox
Good grief, a mandatory morning dip! Who would have thunk?
Looking at the max pain chart for the day, strike 160 is a put wall and everything above tends toward call-dominated strikes. I suspect the market makers would prefer a close above 160 today. Max pain is 172.50. MMs normally don't do anything positive when prices are dropping, but today's a big options close Friday, so it's possible they may help protect 160.

Busy furiously typing out supporting material for an SEC complaint at the moment with a keyboard warmed in hell...
 
While considering that we should note the numerous effects of unwinding “the wave”. Nearly by definition as volumes rise and the artificial quarter end concentrations decline we also see:
1. Relative rise in seasonality of sales;
2. Reduced COGS from better staffing balance, reduced quarter-end promotions;
3. Reduced shipping costs and logistics management dysfunction.

Without question the other events of the quarter such as Red Sea Houthi impediments, Brandenburg terrorist attack and Chinese New Year all provide opportunity for both FUD and legitimate questions.

Most of us also understand the FUD and regulatory attacks including Delaware Chsncery Court , more SEC investigations, IIHS absurdity in reporting ONLY their view of driver attention devices ignoring all navigation aids while reporting this as total evaluation. Anybody who is aware of the history of that organization understands them to be totally and exclusively serving auto insurance companies whose interests are always unequal to those of consumers.

All of those influences are within historical precedent. What is not so much is the advent of SEC categorization of short-sellers as ‘investors’ which exacerbates the role of market makers and other entities eganged in officially supported manipulation. For context see @Papafox.

None of these issues are likely to effect alteration for those of us who HODL. For any active retail trader all these things act to increase risk and reduce odds of success.

Netting all of this we have the core reality that TSLA guidance has established that 2024 is a transition year. So, many of us are conditioned to see anything like this as disaster. Some of us expect that better growth will be forthcoming in 2025 and 2026 as geographic and product expansion growth returns. We need not think of FSD or Optimus to understand that, although those may happen.

All we need to do is consider increasing supply of batteries at reduced costs (e.g. 4680 from more thst one source, new 2170 from Panasonic and others), increased revenue from ( e.g.Superchargers, Cybertruck, Semi, various TE products) and even the refreshed Model 3 and Model Y ( better prices and lower costs). Of course there are other factors.

So here we are in panic mode because all is going as expected. Despite awareness we’re somehow pining for massive TSLA price rises as happened from time to time.

Everyone. Should. chill! Securities prices are a roller coaster ride for emotions. Emotional roller coasters are painful companions for anybody. For anybody who saw ‘War Games’ the cardinal rule applies for anyone who is in securities markets and not entitled to be a Market Maker or beneficiary of securities lending. “ the only way to win is not to play the game”.

For the investors among us it’s quite hard to keep perspective. Just do not try to time the market. It’s nearly impossible to resist, but market timing itself is the enemy of long term wealth enhancements.

The foregoing are my opinions, learned during boom and bust multiple times. Clearly some people like Ken Griffin, say, find a way to know better, while others like, say, Warren Buffet has done well my making good judgements and waiting. Still others, like Eon Musk and Jeff Bezos invent better solutions. For most more or less normal people emulating Mr Buffet is possible, but not the other two.

If the previous paragraph makes sense to you; chill! Then obsessively watch to find out if the fundamental have changed. If they have not, keep obsessively watching. If you see the fundamentals changing (e.g. cash flow going negative, dividends beginning, unexplained insiders selling); if then, sell and save what you can.

For me, I watch results and thus far have sold only to buy houses and give money away. Those are to provide different satisfactions, not investment.

Well said!

One of the most important lessons I've learned over a scant few years of investing is to develop an understanding of how easily emotions can become our enemy. Often, this is a result of a strategy deployed to generate responses from those who do not realize they are being played.

Developing a knack for what I'll call "Investor's Alchemy" has been rewarded for anyone who manages to master the arcane skill.

This alchemy is the magical conversion of emotionally generated fear and doubt into a certainty that this is temporary and quite likely will result in increasing pressure in the market building to a point where it will pop. The worse the feeling gets, the bigger the pop potential.

The ingredients for this process of alchemy that transforms FUD into Certainty are the company's fundamentals when compared to other companies doing similar things.

Once taken into consideration, the realization is profound how the "companies doing similar things" each are only being compared to one aspect of Tesla, and, never is any single company comparable to the whole of Tesla. Much less, comparable to the entire Elonosphere and the cross pollination it provides to the overall technological prowess.

This is empowering, though it is not easily realized, particularly when the effects of fear, uncertainty, and doubt get in the way of understanding.

HODLers who practice Investor's Alchemy on a regular basis can significantly reduce the effects of FUD, and are less likely to make poor choices which benefit only the perpetrators levering emotions for their own purposes.

This defines the difference between being a player and just being played.
 
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My uninformed take on South Asia, e.g. India. Tesla likely and should be waiting for smaller Gen 3 vehicle design and most importantly resultant new FACTORY design before building a factory there.
The factory could take 2 years to build. I think you need to go in parallel in this case to at least establish the location and footprint of the new factory while the vehicle design and production is established and maturing in other locations.
 
Or, as long as the charging is decent, road trips.

Some people (like us) just want smaller, more maneuverable vehicles. Current Teslas have large turning radii.
Really. My friends are always surprised at how tight the turning radius is on my X. It's tighter than their cars, which are much smaller.
 
It's kinda nuts that people have gotten so used to reusable rockets that, yesterday, SpaceX launched the ISS to orbit (in one launch) with a non-reusable Starship rocket. They now just have to solve reusability.

I'm starting to wonder what this means for global cargo/shipping in the next half a decade...


The cost to launch to space and back to earth for earth-bound cargo is not going to be remotely a thing in the next half decade. Nor the decade after that. Probably not ever unless we develop some entirely new physics for launches. Getting out of a gravity well is crazy expensive by mass.

Starships cargo capacity is 100-150t
A typical sea-going container ship has a capacity of about 220,000 tons.

You'd need at least 1500, possibly as many as 2200, starship missions to move the cargo of ONE container ship.