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This is easily proven as false. Each Waymo car replaces a normal car plus its driver. The driver alone earns in a year more than Waymo's one-time cost for the sensor stack. Not to mention all the other savings they get.

It's not at all true that each Waymo car replaces a normal car plus its driver. Each Waymo car requires remote monitoring, remote intervention, and sometimes a relief driver. Those all require a lot of people with relatively higher salaries than an Uber driver.

BTW, a relief driver requires two drivers. One person has to rescue the stranded vehicle and another person has to ferry the relief driver where it needs to go. And what are these relief drivers doing when not driving a stranded Waymo? As I understand it, many are stationed out in the field doing nothing. They are spread out so that when a car needs a relief driver they are not too far away.

This is why Waymo has no clear path to profitability. Until Waymo's technology sees massive improvement, the cost of operating a Waymo vehicle will be far more than operating an Uber.
 
Found the reason why people are not buying Teslas for Taxi/uber purposes in Beijing but are buying EVs from Chinese brands.

The warranty on the battery for some of these chinese made EVs are 10 years, 600k km (or 400k miles). This is like 4x of a Tesla. Man these EV companies are so going under or magical money are keeping them afloat by the CCP.
That logic is identical to the positions
Megapacks are in an extremely competitive market. The cells and pack are the fundamentals and Tesla doesn't have anything special that would ultimately give them both a large market and sustained high margin.

The big profit potential is in being the best in a large market that isn't yet commoditized, and there's still room for that in autonomy and robotics.
EDIT: What Megapacks, cell manufacturing (solve 4680) and cars can do is buy them time.
While I agree with most of your post, I gave a disagree because you overlooked a two huge factors now differentiating suppliers of BESS, somewhat differing between residential, commercial and utility level markets. Those two are packaging and total system integration, specifically including near-instantantaneous response to pricing (i.e. grid services with participant supply integration).

The packaging part is often ignored. For large use container-sized packaging reduces shipping and installation costs, as does modular design at all levels. Software integration combines BMS, power controller, utility price adaptability with mobile device applications for administration and monitoring.

At it stands today in most markets the only complete integrations are from Tesla, Huawei and, most recently BYD. There are others from Siemens to GE which can do most of it, but nearly all are still foundering. I certainly miss some that can do that now.

Tesla does retain some advantages in all of that, and still retains the quick development capability that it shares with Huawei, and BYD plus in some respects CATL The really means that the factual limit on Tesla growth in the entire sector depends on ability to scale. That is all about battery supply, and BYD and CATL are both working hard to supply Tesla, as is everyone else including notably LG.

Everyone who argues that Tesla has missed is missing their ability to recover from missteps in part, a big part, because all those big suppliers learn from supplying Tesla. It simply does not matter that Tesla is not dominate. It matters that they continue to innovate.

Just consider that nobody yet has managed to replicate SpaceX accomplishments. That si not due to SpaceX policy, it's because all the others thought SpaceX could not succeed so squandered all the time since 28 September 2008 when SpaceX made it's first successful launch.

Then consider Tesla, that finally has competitors that are competent, innovative, and cooperative with Tesla. We now see those competitors, markets that are nearing critical mass in many countries and simultaneously see Elon Musk...
pursuing unrelated goals, successful in all but one and rapidly changing tat one and drawing ire...
with severe reactions governmental encouragement in some markets and disdain in others. That does create discomfort and debate that almost invariably blends into polemics. That is sad, it diminishes our ability to understand what is happening.

The innovation and technological advances are not slowing. There are now Four Elon companies, that are spawning major new industries (SpaceX, Tesla, Neuralink and OpenAI to Neuralink) plus Starlink creation of a new generation of communication technology. of course there is more.

The fear is that he might well be distracted from Tesla and repelled by the political issues impeding Tesla in it's home country. We cannot and should not even try to discuss the merits of those issues because they inevitably delve into the irrelevancy of the politics themselves.

Oe issue is squarely affecting all this, that compensation one. As Robyn Denholm points out so well, the Tesla costs are already been recognized, so this is ratification not a new approval, Tesla, it seems, never reversed any charges, so this only restores options already vested but not exercised. Can that be true? If so there is no basis at all to reject the deal!

What happens when we all vote in favor? FWIW, everyone I know who held TSLA on that date, have voted in favor.

In my opinion, this may well help go beyond a seemingly singular fixation on FSD and AI, and help reestablish TSLA as one focus of major positive energy; of course assuming that has been diminished during all the 'commotion' that has generated such fears.
 
Tesla chief Elon Musk tweets, "Congratulations Narendra Modi on your victory in the world’s largest democratic elections. Looking forward to my companies doing exciting work in India."
 

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fair enough. We'll see in 2 years where they are and compare to Tesla. I suspect we'll see Waymo beginning to deploy the fleet and Tesla to start going through permitting in CA. We have no idea where Waymos cost will be at scale nor what the market will hold if Tesla and Waymo go to a price war in 3-4 years.
I think Tesla will start its robotaxi business quite soon, like next year.

We might get a new clue this weekend if 12.4.1 rolls out to end customers.

I've said this before, but it has been quite awhile. There are exactly three scenarios for Waymo vs. Tesla:
1. Waymo solves autonomy. Tesla does not. Waymo wins.
2.
Tesla solves autonomy. Waymo does not. Tesla wins.
3.
Both Tesla and Waymo solve autonomy. Tesla wins.

Tesla's cost structure will always be far below Waymo's. So Tesla wins #3.

Waymo's only hope is that Tesla's end-to-end system does not solve autonomy and somehow Waymo gets their costs under control. It doesn't look good for Waymo.
 
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No, not just the price point. AVs do not have drivers and that changes the availability model dramatically.
availability is never the issue in TaaS today. I mean I don't need to dive back into the question of TaaS again. If you examine transportation models...really look at them, look at TaaS and see see how much growth you expect instantly. I do expect constant growth, but slowly.
 
Mid-summer* break from your favorite 🥰 Moderator’s regularly-scheduled hiatus from 24h/d riding herd over y’allz -

If a CEO of any company for which I sat on the BoD ever said to the Board words analogous to:

We are starting to get to the point where, once known bugs are fixed, it will take over a year of driving to get even one intervention

He or she would be 37th floor defenestrated before he could stop for a water break.

I don’t care about “starting to get”; I care about getting.

I don’t even care about “getting to the point”; I care about being at the point.

I don’t care about “once known bugs are fixed”; I care about all bugs having been fixed.

For the umpteenth time on this thread, words matter. And those words demonstrate that we have just been told absolutely nothing at all.

Disgraceful.

*Last frost today! We hope. And I think I plowed snow for the final time this season last week.
Given your way of words (and me beeing non-native-english-speaking) I give you my probably ~fifth disagree ever of my time on this forum - I do hope I did not understand though…
 
Given your way of words (and me beeing non-native-english-speaking) I give you my probably ~fifth disagree ever of my time on this forum - I do hope I did not understand though…

Mid-summer* break from your favorite 🥰 Moderator’s regularly-scheduled hiatus from 24h/d riding herd over y’allz -

If a CEO of any company for which I sat on the BoD ever said to the Board words analogous to:

We are starting to get to the point where, once known bugs are fixed, it will take over a year of driving to get even one intervention

He or she would be 37th floor defenestrated before he could stop for a water break.

I don’t care about “starting to get”; I care about getting.

I don’t even care about “getting to the point”; I care about being at the point.

I don’t care about “once known bugs are fixed”; I care about all bugs having been fixed.

For the umpteenth time on this thread, words matter. And those words demonstrate that we have just been told absolutely nothing at all.

Disgraceful.

*Last frost today! We hope. And I think I plowed snow for the final time this season last week.
I read it again several times, are you really serious here???
 
It just staggers me that people can *with a straight face* not see the difference between a company that shoehorns 32 million different sensors on the top of a car they buy from someone else, then employ people to create maps of everywhere you might want to operate...
...and a company that sells people cars for a nice profit, then creates a universal map-free solution for driving everywhere on earth using the sensors that are already in the car that they sold at a profit.

I just don't get it. Its insane that the difference is not obvious. Scaling up a dumb idea is just being more dumb. Unless your livelihood depends on waymo and cruise 'scaling' it just cannot make sense to continue to support such a ridiculous dead end.

What matters is the cost, business model, functionality, and safety. Pretty much everyone knows E2E AI is the way to go, so the playing field for functionality has largely leveled.

Waymo uses Companies like Wayve uses e2e ai just like Tesla and Waymo uses much more AI than before. That leaves:

1. Cost

3 years ago, a car with Waymo cost about $180k, or maybe an incremental hw cost of $120k. With sensor costs and AI compute costs dropping 10x since then, I'd imagine the incremental cost would be closer to $30k today. Amortized over 5 years, $6k annually is not much of a disadvantage, especially if there are benefits

2. Data

The minimum amount of data necessary is the amount needed for your model to drive as safely as a human. Nobody cares how many miles or hours of driving data that takes. A human can accomplish this task with a thousand miles of data. The Waymo stack seems fine with the amount of data they have.

Tesla has more data on different locations of course. Waymo has more data on being an operational robotaxi in one of the worst cities in the US. For example, waymo has to handle interactions like people who deliberately get in the way of driverless cars.

3. Maps

To me, it's pretty obvious that Waymo will no longer need high resolution maps with more use of E2E AI. The use of them was a crutch from years back when actual code handled much of the driving. What E2E AI allows Tesla to do let's Waymo do the same. They'll use maps for navigation, like everyone else.

4. Safety

Waymo safety is about 7x better than a human. Empirically, they have found a way to get enough data. This is Tesla's biggest challenge by far.

5. Miscellaneous Thoughts

The great thing about e2e AI is that it can assimilate multiple modalities (LIDAR, vision, etc) to improve predictions. The sensor suite on Waymo should provide a much safer experience and over a wider range of conditions. For example, when a camera is blinded by the sun or needs to be washed, a sensor suite can rely on other modalities to make it through.

Waymo and other competing self driving efforts are not sitting still. They're not using outdated approaches, anymore than Tesla is stuck using v11.

Edit: I misread an article that I thought said Waymo was using E2E AI. Made corrections above.
 
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I completely agree with you at present time. However, the market is forward looking. So I don't really care about what the company is earning now, I do care about what they are earning the next years and even decade.
Are you familiar with the idea of Wayne Gretzky? "Skate to where the puck is going, not where it has been"


Sure, it's called "discounted cash flow" models. But you don't get to assign some unrealistic probability to your assumptions, then get upset when the market disagrees.


Short interest is a farce. I wouldn't be surprised if unreported shorts plus FTDs comprise hundreds of million "shares".

Uh ok. yeah a 500 billion market cap company is heavily manipulated down from trillion dollar market cap. I'm sure it has nothing to do with decreasing profits.


Have you all spent anytime looking at the financials and valuations of other companies? Daily I look at the financials of a few companies seeing whether they are good opportunities to go long (or short).

#1 When companies report decreasing earnings and / or forward guidance is adjusted downwards... the stock price almost always goes down. It has nothing to do with shorts.

#2 The forward PE ratios of most healthy companies are in a certain ballpark, say 20-40. Usually the only companies higher than this are "startups" that are scaling up revenue very quickly, and there is hope that operational costs start flatlining / growing more slowly so operational leverage takes over. Often, this doesn't come to fruition and the bubble is popped. But sometimes it does.

#3 For established companies, even when investors "skate to where the puck is headed" they only do so a few years out. Look at NVDA, who's 1 year forward PE ratio is lower than TSLA's.

If any unbiased person walked up and looked at Tesla's financials, they would assert the stock is already valued on skating to where the puck is going.

You may certainly argue you assign a higher probability to robotaxis happening in the next few years than the rest of the market, but that doesn't mean the stock is manipulated.

It just means there are a wide variety of potential outcomes for the future earnings of Tesla.
 
UK - V4 Supercharging hardware on non-Tesla sites/networks & Tesla opening up more sites to all makes - huge network

All UK Tesla Service Centres' Superchargers open to all makes. Tesla "open to all" would be UK's third largest charging network* and FIRST for high-speed networks - then you add Tesla-only sites.

*including slow DC & AC

12:45 for description of off-camera chat with Tesla Supercharger commissioning engineers commissioning EG Group V4 chargers. Installation was done by non-Tesla company. EG Group (now branded as "EV On The Move") seem to be paying Tesla for commissioning, V4 dispenser hardware AND maintenance (Tesla remote monitoring etc). Not sure about power - V3 cabinets or another supplier?

"EV On The Move" V4 chargers will not need card or app for Teslas, credit/debit card (perhaps app also) for non-Teslas. Price MUCH higher at 65p / kWh. Tesla are probably 28-55p / kWh (from my memory).

If BP Pulse North America follow EG/EV On The Move's UK lead - North American Tesla drivers will see BP Pulse sites in-car and be billed without app or card reader use.

EG Group have these brands in North America - "Cumberland Farms, Certified Oil, Fastrac, Kwik Shop, Loaf N' Jug, Minit Mart, Quik Stop, Sprint, Tom Thumb, and Turkey Hill"

 
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I think everything we've seen this year is Elon making smart choices and being cautious, for Elon. Big emphasis on the "for Elon," because as I stated above, he rarely takes half-measures. What most people perceive as betting the company on AI is "not quite" for him, as he clarified in early April:

Mostly, but not on the supercharger firings. I talked with an executive earlier this week with a US company that makes DC fast chargers and on an unrelated note is expanding production and I raised the supercharger division conniptions with him. He smirked, said it was an obvious opening for the people he sells too, albeit probably in the end a modest one, and said his team "was not exactly crying about it."