Tesla Virtual Power Plant in CA

[jjrandorin]

LOL I am in one of those discussions for the Ioniq 5, which comes with 2 years free DC charging. There are people who are very sure that using DC fast charging on a car designed to support DC fast charging (and where DC fast charging being trumpeted as a major feature) will damage (reduce the lifespan) of the batteries in those cars, and saying otherwise is foolish. I'll let you know how it works out for me in 3-5 years.

I got a powerwall with my very small solar install so I could pretty much run off grid for 8-9 months of the year, generating a small surplus, and avoid peak load at least for the other 4 months... or survive a multi-day outage any time of year. My battery usually cycles down to 40% and back to 100% daily. So far after 9 months, my total capacity is unchanged. Yay.

I have no idea about the ioniq, but we know from the way batteries work, that DC fast charging is not nearly as good for batteries as any forum of slow charging, but thats not what is being discussed here (because the rates are not at DC fast charging rates).

I wasnt trying to turn the discussion to dcfast charging (which this isnt) but just commenting on people generally being concerned about charging cycles or "regular charging" (non DC fast charging) and battery resting capacities etc, not being concerned about that here, perhaps because of the opportunity to receive some payback.

 

[Redhill_qik]

I am almost certain that the "no AEB" means that the baseline is not adjusted for day-of usage rather than that the baseline is 0. To me this makes a lot more intuitive sense considering this is a "load reduction" program. The amount that a participant reduced the net load on the grid is the difference between what they would have exported if there hadn't been an event and what they did export during the event.

I did a bit more research and I am standing behind my prior post that the exports are included in the compensation. The full PG&E ELRP rules can be found here: https://elrp.olivineinc.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2022/05/ELRP-Group-A-Terms-and-Conditions.pdf

First we have the definition for ILR:

Incremental load reduction (ILR) is defined as the load reduction achieved during an ELRP event incremental or relative to the non-event applicable baseline and/or any other existing commitment. Only ILR is eligible for compensation under ELRP.

Virtual Power Plants are classified as "Subgroup A.4" and here is the applicable settlement calculation section:

3.2.1.4 Settlement Calculations for Sub-Group A.4.
The aggregator selected CPUC approved baseline for PG&E’s Capacity Bidding Program is utilized and modified to account for exported energy, to the extent allowed by a site’s Rule 21 export permit, during non-event days and count exported energy in ILR.

The baseline method, as specified in Section 3.2.1.1, may be used with submetering. Aggregators that elect to use sub-meter data for settlement purposes shall also comply with approved submetering services as outlined in the Aggregator Participation Agreement. The election to utilize submetering will apply to all locations within a single aggregation.

Section 3.2.1.1 matches with the material in the simpler FAQ, with the exception of the Adjusted Energy Calculation (#3 in the FAQ vs #4 in the full doc, #1 was dropped in the FAQ) makes no mention of the negative baseline for the prior 10 days. I believe that this was added to the FAQ to simplify the wording for customers and it codifies the wording in 3.2.1.4.

3.2.1.1: 4) Calculate the Adjusted Energy Baseline (AEB) – A service account’s AEB for an ELRP event is calculated by multiplying the EB by the DOAV

FAQ: 3) Calculate the Adjusted Energy Baseline (AEB) – When the EB is greater than zero, the AEB is calculated by multiplying the EB by the DOAV. There is no AEB when the EB is less than zero.

This supports my prior post that all of the exported amount during the event is applied if you were a net exporter during the event period during the prior 10 days. So, if you had a baseline of -5.0 kWh during those days and during the event you had -15.0 kWh sent to the grid you would get credit for the full 15.0 kWh.

There was a Contact Us form on the PG&E ELRP site, so I submitted a request for clarification.

 

[astrorob]

You will still earn the difference from 8pm-9pm since the event began later than 4pm, but if an event were to begin at 4pm, you wouldn't earn anything extra from the VPP. Did your batteries continue to export everything after the event was over?
I also have "export everything" turned on, but I usually hit my reserve some time between 6 and 7 pm, so it's less of an impact. You could consider setting your reserve higher to avoid running into event hours, depending on how much the credits are worth to you. Of course we don't know how frequently events will happen or what the hours will be at this point, so it's all speculative.

i expected the PWs to last past the event, but they hit the 25% reserve right around 9PM. in retrospect this should have been obvious since normally there's some solar to export in the first couple hours of peak, and the grid output is clamped at 5.28kw. i guess normally i end up exporting from 4pm to about 8pm, so if i understand what was said in other posts, i'll get VPP credit for the 8-9PM export that happened. IOW ~$10. not nothing but not the payday i was expecting.

overall it's worth much more to me to export during peak consistently on a day by day basis than try to goose my stats for the sake of VPP.

Note that I am not saying this extra battery usage is bad, etc, just that I am surprised that people are so willing to do this vs how much people tend to pay attention to "the battery" in the vehicles, worrying about things like "should I charge it to 82.456% daily or 86.99234%?"

IMO (see below) i think this worry is more relevant to DC quick charging and/or cars with no battery temperature management.

I'm more surprised at people that are using the "Export Everything" on a daily basis. I don't think that it is cost effective within the PG&E territory and that the sustained current would be putting a lot more strain on the batteries and other components every day.

it is incredibly cost effective and is essentially undoing the peak shift between EV1 and EV2 for me, which took me from +/- $200 per year to owing PGE about $1200 per year. so EE is easily worth $1000 per year. maybe things are different on NEM2, but i'm still on NEM1.

I have no idea about the ioniq, but we know from the way batteries work, that DC fast charging is not nearly as good for batteries as any forum of slow charging, but thats not what is being discussed here (because the rates are not at DC fast charging rates).

my M3 is down about 7% after almost 3 years and i've supercharged it probably 20 times. the leaf was another story - ~40% battery degradation almost certainly caused by DC quick charging (which was free and ironically the remedy for a battery lawsuit against nissan.)

point being that the powerwalls are never getting anywhere near DC charge current/voltage and i assume what does happen to it is a lot more akin to L2 charging of an EV than DC quick charging. so i agree with you.

 

[charlesj]

The exporting will be from 6 - 9 PM
The event allows our systems to charge from the grid in the morning to make sure we are at 100% when peak starts.

This is my first even since I signed on not that long ago.
It appears at 5AM yesterday my batteries were stopped powering the house, house powered by the grid, then when the sun was coming up solar started to charge batteries, not the grid. Grid power went to the house, solar to batteries. When battery was 100% solar sent excess to grid. At 6 PM 4kW from battery went to the grid for 3 hours and to power the house as well. At 9 PM battery was supplying power to house and is still trying to fully recharge.
Looks like I sent 12 kWh to grid for this VPP event.

Now my question to the group, who keeps track of power to VPP and when is payday.

 

[cwied]

Now my question to the group, who keeps track of power to VPP and when is payday.

My guess on who keeps track is PG&E and here is the answer to the payment question from the FAQ (Emergency Load Reduction Pilot | Tesla Support):

Payment​

At the end of the season, which is typically towards the end of the year, PG&E will calculate your contribution and incentive payment from your Powerwall data. Your payment will come from Tesla and you can expect payment before the end of March 2023.

Edit to add two more references that I haven't had the chance to read in detail yet.
https://elrp.olivineinc.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2022/05/ELRP-Group-A-Terms-and-Conditions.pdf : the description of the ELRP. Of particular interest is the A.4 description, which covers VPPs.
https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-CBP.pdf : the electric schedule that covers the Capacity Bidding Program that covers the incentives and requirements for Tesla to be a part of the ELRP as a VPP aggregator.

 

[charlesj]

My guess on who keeps track is PG&E and here is the answer to the payment question from the FAQ (Emergency Load Reduction Pilot | Tesla Support):

I supposed this is how it works even if I am on the community power system?
I made a note on my phone how much I transferred.
March is a long way off

 

[sorka]

my M3 is down about 7% after almost 3 years and i've supercharged it probably 20 times. the leaf was another story - ~40% battery degradation almost certainly caused by DC quick charging (which was free and ironically the remedy for a battery lawsuit against nissan.)

point being that the powerwalls are never getting anywhere near DC charge current/voltage and i assume what does happen to it is a lot more akin to L2 charging of an EV than DC quick charging. so i agree with you.

My P85D was down 8% after 7 years and 135K miles when I sold it. Original battery and drive units.

 

[aesculus]

I think this is an important point:

At the end of the season, which is typically towards the end of the year, PG&E will calculate your contribution and incentive payment from your Powerwall data.

It will not be meter data but PW data. You could technically have PV sending back power outside of PW. But none the less, it's about what the PWs are doing for VPP.

 

[jjrandorin]

Question for those of you who are math minded and able to dig into this stuff. Would you consider doing this if you were still on NEM 1 and also on a tiered electric plan which is "the more you use, the more it costs" (the old kind of plan)?

Its an honest question, because that is where I am. There is no "time of day" that is better for me to charge, in my case, I am incentivized to have as little grid draw as possible. I also use self powered mode, and during these months (august / Sept) due to AC use usually hit my reserve around 11 pm to midnight.

I have, in general, Zero grid draw from about 7am till about 11pm right now, and charge my cars at 3am and 4am to ensure my powerwalls are either at or hitting my reserve when car charging kicks in.

If I were to participate in any such plan, I would push myself into higher tiers (36 or 45 cents a kWh) as I never go out of tier 1 as it is.

Does anyone see a situation with someone in my position and plan, who had a true up of roughly $80 charge (so net consumer, just barely) should even consider this?

 

[Redhill_qik]

Question for those of you who are math minded and able to dig into this stuff. Would you consider doing this if you were still on NEM 1 and also on a tiered electric plan which is "the more you use, the more it costs" (the old kind of plan)?

Its an honest question, because that is where I am. There is no "time of day" that is better for me to charge, in my case, I am incentivized to have as little grid draw as possible. I also use self powered mode, and during these months (august / Sept) due to AC use usually hit my reserve around 11 pm to midnight.

I have, in general, Zero grid draw from about 7am till about 11pm right now, and charge my cars at 3am and 4am to ensure my powerwalls are either at or hitting my reserve when car charging kicks in.

If I were to participate in any such plan, I would push myself into higher tiers (36 or 45 kWh) as I never go out of tier 1 as it is.

Does anyone see a situation with someone in my position and plan, who had a true up of roughly $80 charge (so net consumer, just barely) should even consider this?

Let's assume for a 13.5 kWh PW you get a net 10.0 kWh export out of it which is worth $20.00 @ $2.00/kWh. If your tier 2 rate was $0.45/kWh and you had to import another 15 kWh to do this that would be a net difference of 5 kWh (15-10) and cost you $2.25. The net result is that you are ahead by $17.75, so yes I would do it.

Edit: Are you misunderstanding how the Tier plans work? You pay $0.28 for the first kWh up to your baseline * days, then $0.36 for the next amount up to baseline*400%*days, then pay $0.45 for everything above baseline*400%*days. You don't pay $0.45 for every kWh that you import. Similar to the progressive nature of federal income tax.

 

[sorka]

This supports my prior post that all of the exported amount during the event is applied if you were a net exporter during the event period during the prior 10 days. So, if you had a baseline of -5.0 kWh during those days and during the event you had -15.0 kWh sent to the grid you would get credit for the full 15.0 kWh.

There was a Contact Us form on the PG&E ELRP site, so I submitted a request for clarification.

Um, so from August 8th to August 17th, I net exported 141 kwh to the grid. Mostly because I was on vacation for half of that time away from home and just got back last night right after the event ended.

Does this mean I get $2 / kwh * 141????

 

[Redhill_qik]

Um, so from August 8th to August 17th, I net exported 141 kwh to the grid. Mostly because I was on vacation for half of that time away from home and just got back last night right after the event ended.

Does this mean I get $2 / kwh * 141????

No, only for the amount exported during the event on August 17th from 6:00-9:00pm. With the caveat that the 10 prior weekdays had zero or negative exports from 6:00-9:00pm. It would be more if you were importing on average during this time.

 

[jjrandorin]

Let's assume for a 13.5 kWh PW you get a net 10.0 kWh export out of it which is worth $20.00 @ $2.00/kWh. If your tier 2 rate was $0.45/kWh and you had to import another 15 kWh to do this that would be a net difference of 5 kWh (15-10) and cost you $2.25. The net result is that you are ahead by $17.75, so yes I would do it.

Edit: Are you misunderstanding how the Tier plans work? You pay $0.28 for the first kWh up to your baseline * days, then $0.36 for the next amount up to baseline*400%*days, then pay $0.45 for everything above baseline*400%*days. You don't pay $0.45 for every kWh that you import. Similar to the progressive nature of federal income tax.

No im not misunderstanding how tiers work (my understanding is what you said). I dont ever leave tier 1 as it is now, but importing more power would likely push me into tier 2.

 

[Redhill_qik]

No im not misunderstanding how tiers work (my understanding is what you said). I dont ever leave tier 1 as it is now, but importing more power would likely push me into tier 2.

Ok, good. VPP shouldn't push you into another tier at all as it is just time shifting when your Powerwalls are exporting your energy.

Currently your Powerwall(s) are slowing discharging across 7-8 hours and you aren't importing anything. Instead you are going to discharge them in 1-3 hours and then import roughly the same amount as they sit at your reserve level (which should be 5-10% for VPP IMHO). At the end of the month your net kWh will remain roughly the same as these exports are still counted as NEM exports. BTW, my 5 kWh was vastly conservative from what you will actually see.

 

[aesculus]

VPP shouldn't push you into another tier at all as it is just time shifting when your Powerwalls are exporting your energy.

That's an interesting question. What happens if he imports power to the Powerwalla and it pushes him into Tier 2 rates. Then he exports the power which makes his net be in Tier 1? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Redhill_qik]

That's an interesting question. What happens if he imports power to the Powerwalla and it pushes him into Tier 2 rates. Then he exports the power which makes his net be in Tier 1? Inquiring minds want to know.

NEM rules are net energy and this is why tier plans were eliminated going to NEM2. With a tier plan it is the monthly imports - monthly exports to get to the net imports and then the tier rates are applied. I'm on E-TOU-C because it has a similar behavior with a baseline based subtractor/adder. When I start charging an EV I will likely move to a net consumer, but it works be a big stretch to go over baseline so the rate is lower than E-TOU-D and I think EV2A is a scam.

@jjrandorin You really shouldn't be discharging your Powerwalls except during an outage or VPP. Consider using 10 kWh/day or 300kWh/month. That is "costing" you 30 kWh in lost exports due to recharge inefficiency. You just want to maximize your exports under NEM1 with a Tier plan especially since you have no NBCs.

Edit: fixed typo

 

[jjrandorin]

NEM rules are net energy and this is why tier plans were eliminated going to NEM2. With a tier plan it is the monthly imports - monthly exports to get to the net imports and then the tier rates are applied. I'm on E-TOU-C because it has a similar behavior with a baseline based subtractor/adder. When I start charging an EV I will likely move to a net consumer, but it works be a big stretch to go over baseline so the rate is lower than E-TOU-D and I think EV2A is a scam.

@jjrandorin You really shouldn't be discharging your Powerwalls except during an outage or VPP. Consider using 10 kWh/day or 300kWh/month. That is "costing" you 30 kWh in lost exports due to recharge inefficiency. You just want to maximize your exports under NEM1 with a Tier plan especially since you have no NBCs.

Edit: fixed typo

Gotcha. I do know about the round trip losses. On an emotional level, I like less reliance on the grid though. Its not a "for the environment!" thing, its a "I have a dislike of the utility" thing. Appreciate he information though, and apologize for somewhat derailing this thread.

 

[Redhill_qik]

Gotcha. I do know about the round trip losses. On an emotional level, I like less reliance on the grid though. Its not a "for the environment!" thing, its a "I have a dislike of the utility" thing. Appreciate he information though, and apologize for somewhat derailing this thread.

Bringing it back to the thread, will you now join the VPP?

 

[jjrandorin]

Bring it back to the thread, will you now join the VPP?

No, I dont think so. I have a philosophical issue with "some other entity" being able to have access to my devices like that. I had a "very very poor" experience with The AC cycling program with SCE and nest thermostats. We were miserable for an entire summer, and they wouldnt even let me out of the program.

That left me with an extreme distaste for any such program. Yes, I am aware that it appears there are opt outs, etc, but just like "I like less reliance on SCE and dont mind the round trip losses", I also dont particularly like this idea.

I prefer using the energy myself (which I am doing) vs pushing it out, and then buying some back.

I will also say I feel I am "doing my part" because I am not drawing any energy at all during these flex alerts etc, and am using the power (its not just sitting there in a battery).

EDIT: The tesla app, under VPP for me (I am in southern california) states "you could earn at least $188 based on your backup reserve. $27 per event for 7 events, actual compensation may vary". Its not worth $188 to me to enroll in something like this (not even if thats "yearly"). if you added a zero on the end, I would probably do it ($1880) but that amount of money isnt worth it for me to enroll in something like this.

 

[sunwarriors]

No, I dont think so. I have a philosophical issue with "some other entity" being able to have access to my devices like that. I had a "very very poor" experience with The AC cycling program with SCE and nest thermostats. We were miserable for an entire summer, and they wouldnt even let me out of the program.

That left me with an extreme distaste for any such program. Yes, I am aware that it appears there are opt outs, etc, but just like "I like less reliance on SCE and dont mind the round trip losses", I also dont particularly like this idea.

I prefer using the energy myself (which I am doing) vs pushing it out, and then buying some back.

I will also say I feel I am "doing my part" because I am not drawing any energy at all during these flex alerts etc, and am using the power (its not just sitting there in a battery).

EDIT: The tesla app, under VPP for me (I am in southern california) states "you could earn at least $188 based on your backup reserve. $27 per event for 7 events, actual compensation may vary". Its not worth $188 to me to enroll in something like this (not even if thats "yearly"). if you added a zero on the end, I would probably do it ($1880) but that amount of money isnt worth it for me to enroll in something like this.

That's my main concern as well, other entities having more control of my batteries. I also feel if I sign up for something like this, I'd be drained down to 25% or so during an event, and that's when a power outage/issue occurs during a cloudy spell and am now maybe $30 richer (which will have no impact on my situation), but I'm out of power for the next few days due to participating.

It'll probably never happen to be honest (I'm still waiting for a power outage here), but unless the compensation is higher, I don't think the added $$ from VPP will affect the lives of the majority of owners here neither. One could be doing this to be more green or helping thy neighbor of course, but for most folks not on the east cost with those thousands of payout, I think the $$ is pretty low. It'll be nice to here what people post in March 2023 when this cycle ends.

I'm also a net exporter so gaming use/VPP vs. my TOU is probably not worth the hassle at this point. If anything, I've raised my reserve and started to pull from the grid off hours to cycle my batteries less during the summer now.