Texas VPP

[niveknow]

We all heard of Tesla's VPP desires in Texas, but it's getting closer. This was just posted last night and shows they're gearing up.

ERCOT approves pilot allowing Tesla VPPs

ERCOT board of directors unanimously approved a pilot project that allows Tesla virtual power plants (VPPs)

www.teslarati.com

I haven't read about all things they did in California when they started there, but I assume they would use a similar start up approach. Buy out existing plan termination fees to get folks to switch over and join their VPP mesh? I wonder how this would fair out compared some net metering or free nights/weekends plan. I see them trying to get everyone to join by spring to show it off by the summer peaks.

 

[jjrandorin]

I am not aware of any "buy out of existing plan termination fees" of anything in CA, there are no plans to change at all in CA if you choose to sign up for something like this.

It also doesnt change anything to do with net metering in CA, you just get some extra money for allowing them to control your powerwalls and discharge them down when they want to.

 

[niveknow]

Nice to hear someone from Cali chime in. I assume you're in the VPP program there? Texas may be a bit different with our deregulated market in a good part of the state, but all speculation. Tesla was approved as an Retail Electricity Provider (REP) earlier with the VPP update just recently. Not sure how familiar you are with this structure, but the distribution is owned and maintained by a handful off TDUs with the REPs on top.

Question for you as a VPP.
- Did you need to switch electric companies?
- You get extra money to allow Tesla to control your PWs. How does that work? You're likely under a netmeter plan with your current electric provider to sell back to your grid. What determines if you get traditional net meter credit vs Tesla taking control?

 

[jjrandorin]

I assume you're in the VPP program there?

No, I am not, I will never give an outside entity control of my HVAC / Electrical system again, willingly, including any of the programs that can throttle your AC to "help the grid" or any of that stuff. I had an extremely negative experience with a couple of HVAC throttling plans, and so would never (ever) willingly sign up for this type of thing unless it was going to be "we will give you these batteries that we will sometimes control".

There is a lot of information about them here though, if you want to read about it.

No, There is no switch of electric companies here as we do not get to choose electric companies (most Californians). A few have a choice between the main utility and a Community choice Aggregator (CCA) but for the most part we do not choose electric providers so there is no switching companies.

When they trigger a VPP event, as far as your net metering, it simply counts as export at the same rate as your current net meter agreement. From that perspective, nothing changes. Its not "either net metering or VPP credit", its both, if you participate.

I personally dont see how this makes any sense in a place with rates that are as low as Texas rates normally appear to be, but /shrug....

Anyway, as I mentioned there is quite a bit of information on CA VPP here in this subforum, here are a couple of threads you can read through should you be so inclined:

Tesla Virtual Power Plant in CA

Soon to be available in CA, here is a link to the program. https://www.tesla.com/support/energy/powerwall/own/california-virtual-power-plant Let's see what this has to offer and how those that opt-in are impacted and compensated.

teslamotorsclub.com

Tesla Virtual Power Plant - CA (Released for some SCE customers starting 08.15.2022)

Looks like the VPP is now available for SCE customers. I just saw the notice to enroll pop up in my app. I guess I need to un-enroll from the Power Saver Rewards Program before I sign up. Emergency Load Reduction Program (SCE) | Tesla Support

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[wwu123]

I personally dont see how this makes any sense in a place with rates that are as low as Texas rates normally appear to be, but /shrug....

Maybe for Texas, it's more about grid reliability than smoothing the duck curve? I believe during the big freeze catastrophe, wholesale generation prices jumped to $9/kwh to keep the grid from collapsing. So as opposed to VPP in CA paying $2/kwh for a handful of events, pay $8-9/kwh om TX for one big event per season.

Also, since that big freeze, Texas is paying cumulatively about $1 billion this year to ensure enough emergency standby generation capacity is available all the time. That is a fairly huge cost, and I believe is paid regardless of whether the capacity is ever used (I think it hasn't been used at all). It certainly seems could be much cheaper to have VPP's on standby that only pay out when actually triggered.

 

[sunwarriors]

I have some family in TX and they locked in at like $0.08 or $0.10 for 3 years? I forget how low it was. Either way, it seems hard to make a case for solar ROI when power is so cheap since solar, I've found to be "mostly" similar in price no matter the state/USA ($2-$4/W).

For resiliency, I don't see a massive benefit of VPP because if the grid is out, you're probably out of power too and similar to a lot of folks here when we had that massive heatwave who were on VPP turning it off or setting a very high reserve, VPP only works when the grid is reliable and folks are willing to give up their PW/backup power knowing it won't cut out the next day/few days/no sun. I saw some videos of folks in Texas during the great freeze with PWs and there wasn't enough sun to really be sharing their PWs. I think if daily outages or places with often power outages, doesn't seem as great if there are limited VPP events and low payouts.

Of course, I've very biased against the IOUs having even more control so I'd rather not get the small payout and live without a VPP benefit. If this was something just within my community, I may be more willing to help my direct neighbors.

 

[Redhill_qik]

We all heard of Tesla's VPP desires in Texas, but it's getting closer. This was just posted last night and shows they're gearing up.

ERCOT approves pilot allowing Tesla VPPs

ERCOT board of directors unanimously approved a pilot project that allows Tesla virtual power plants (VPPs)

www.teslarati.com

I haven't read about all things they did in California when they started there, but I assume they would use a similar start up approach. Buy out existing plan termination fees to get folks to switch over and join their VPP mesh? I wonder how this would fair out compared some net metering or free nights/weekends plan. I see them trying to get everyone to join by spring to show it off by the summer peaks.

California's experiment with deregulated private independent generation providers ended after the 2000-2001 crisis caused by Enron and others gaming the supply market. So there are no plans, no contracts and no termination fees in California. The closest analogue is a Community Choice Aggregator that operates as a non-profit quasi-public entity for a specific geographic area. CCAs usually have a year commitment between switching between the CCA and the IOU, but there is no cost to switch. The incentives to stay with the CCA are more options for renewal energy, better incentives for energy saving upgrades and electrification of gas appliances, and usually slightly lower generation costs.

The Virtual Power Plant, VPP, program is just an extra incentive to increase the discharge of stored energy in the Powerwall(s) beyond what the account normal discharges from their Powerwall(s) during times of high demand to reduce the load on the grid by going self powered and increasing the supply to the grid. The original tariff rate schedule (aka "plan") and Net Energy Metering, NEM, rules remain the same.

I wish I had my PG&E bills from the 1999-2002 period as I had switched to Enron and my recollection was that amount I was paying was tiny or maybe negative as the Enron gave around $200 to switch to them, their rates were much lower and then there was a credit for some reason from PG&E that was part of the deregulation. My low costs during that year or so were ultimately paid for by Enron debtors/shareholders, other California customers due to higher rates from Enron gaming the system to drive prices higher, and finally myself through the Power Charge Indifference Adjustment, PCIA, that we are living through today because of long term price locked generation contracts that PG&E was forced into.

 

[wwu123]

My low costs during that year or so were ultimately paid for by Enron debtors/shareholders, other California customers due to higher rates from Enron gaming the system to drive prices higher, and finally myself through the Power Charge Indifference Adjustment, PCIA, that we are living through today because of long term price locked generation contracts that PG&E was forced into.

Those of us who were here in CA back during that time probably remember hearing about these long term price contracts that the utilities were forced into, but have any of the sleuths here ever been able to dig into what exactly were the terms of these contracts? Will our grandchildren still be paying for these long-term contracts? Our grandchildren's grandchildren? Because we're 20+ years past those events, and the PCIA is still being justified by those same long-term contracts. If they were >20 year contracts, I feel like even a high-price signed at that time should be a bargain at this point, if the price were fixed.

I just googled and near the top found one 2003 regulatory document that seems to specifically list a bunch of "long-term contracts" PG&E signed for plants that went into operation in 2002. It doesn't list the pricing or other key terms, but later in the doc, it does say the average term of the contracts signed is "8 to 9 years, versus 10 before renegotiation".

So it seems to me the original long-term contracts are long gone at this point, but still being used to justify the PCIA. I know the CCA's have been arguing with CPUC and the IOU's against the PCIA charge, but as long as the PCIA exists, it basically regulates CCA consumer pricing to within a penny of PG&E's rates, regardless of where and how the CCA's source their generation, and whether it is short-term or long-term agreements.

Interestingly, the only small group of consumers I can think of that got any big pricing benefit from CCA's are solar net generators, which some here should be able to attest to, as the CCA's until recently were compensating surplus generation at retail rates. But that is slowly going away - I believe it's now down to 2X wholesale rates, and I bet in another few years will be back down to the same wholesale rates that PG&E themselves offer. In other words, the CCA's are basically becoming just another layer of regulated entities and overhead in the same system...

 

[jboy210]

Texas is a very unique scenario. I own homes in Texas and California, and you really cannot easily compare the two. It is unlike what California, or most places, homeowners are used to. A home in the Austin burbs can select to get power and gas from any number of suppliers (like 6 or 7), not just the designated local one. Each with their own rate plans and level of service (some really suck!). To entice you to go with them, some have electrical plans with free weekends, free nights, etc. all trying to get your business.

It will be interesting to see how Tesla VPPs work in this scenario since the rates from home to home are not fixed since you may go with provider X and your neighbor with provider Y. As the OP mentioned perhaps Tesla has to become your designated power provider. To me, it seems like many of the power companies in Texas are more power resellers with minimal service people on the ground so perhaps this more of a paperwork change than anything else.

This is different than how Tesla operates here in California, where they work through the designated local power provider (PG&E, SCE, SD Power, etc.) and their rate structure. This is both for regular day to day power, and the VPP program.

 

[Redhill_qik]

So it seems to me the original long-term contracts are long gone at this point, but still being used to justify the PCIA. I know the CCA's have been arguing with CPUC and the IOU's against the PCIA charge, but as long as the PCIA exists, it basically regulates CCA consumer pricing to within a penny of PG&E's rates, regardless of where and how the CCA's source their generation, and whether it is short-term or long-term agreements.

In the past I had found projections of the PCIA rate that is embodiment of the long term contracts that showed the rate dropping to 50% by 2030 and to near zero by 2040. Unfortunately, my prior post on this didn't include a link to the source material, so I can't point to it here.

 

[wwu123]

In the past I had found projections of the PCIA rate that is embodiment of the long term contracts that showed the rate dropping to 50% by 2030 and to near zero by 2040. Unfortunately, my prior post on this didn't include a link to the source material, so I can't point to it here.

Eagle eyes on this forum already noted earlier this year that PCIA rates had dropped - from closer to $0.03 a few years ago to slightly below $0.02 now. So the PCIA rate is dropping, yes. But the CCA consumer rates are still regulated to within a penny of PG&E rates, so it's not like there is any benefit being passed to consumers.

I think I saw one CCA explain they are keeping the money to build a surplus fund, for some future benefit to consumers, ahem....

 

[wwu123]

It will be interesting to see how Tesla VPPs work in this scenario since the rates from home to home are not fixed since you may go with provider X and your neighbor with provider Y. As the OP mentioned perhaps Tesla has to become your designated power provider. To me, it seems like many of the power companies in Texas are more power resellers with minimal service people on the ground so perhaps this more of a paperwork change than anything else.

The California VPP's work totally independently of the retail meter, as folks here have figured out. All net demand reduction (i.e. export) is baselined to the Tesla gateway, not the meter, and the accounts are managed, and will be eventually paid, through Tesla. So seems like the Texas VPP' wouldn't need to interact with the retail providers in Texas at all, since Tesla has the needed data via their gateway? I.e. totally independent of retail billing?

Now the other California DRP's, like Ohmconnect, do need the retail meter data, which is why whoever controls the meter (e.g PG&E in Northern CA) has to share the readings with OhmConnect with the consumer's permission. But the reimbursement by Ohmconnect is done independently of the retail provider - so even that could work too in Texas. So mainly - who owns and controls the meter and its realtime data in Texas? Does each retail provider come and switch out to their own meter each time you switch retail providers? Or is the meter still owned and managed by the regulated utility side in Texas, which would mean DRPs' would only have to deal with a handful of entities to operate?

 

[jboy210]

The California VPP's work totally independently of the retail meter, as folks here have figured out. All net demand reduction (i.e. export) is baselined to the Tesla gateway, not the meter, and the accounts are managed, and will be eventually paid, through Tesla. So seems like the Texas VPP' wouldn't need to interact with the retail providers in Texas at all, since Tesla has the needed data via their gateway? I.e. totally independent of retail billing?

Now the other California DRP's, like Ohmconnect, do need the retail meter data, which is why whoever controls the meter (e.g PG&E in Northern CA) has to share the readings with OhmConnect with the consumer's permission. But the reimbursement by Ohmconnect is done independently of the retail provider - so even that could work too in Texas. So mainly - who owns and controls the meter and its realtime data in Texas? Does each retail provider come and switch out to their own meter each time you switch retail providers? Or is the meter still owned and managed by the regulated utility side in Texas, which would mean DRPs' would only have to deal with a handful of entities to operate?

Make sense since Tesla is only dealing with power sent to the grid. Hopefully that would make it easier for Tesla to get VPP going.

Regarding ownership of the meters, I don't know about electricity, but on gas, the energy provider who bills us that owns and maintains them. They undersized the one on the house because they did not notice the massive pool and spa in the back yard that has been there for over a decade. And when we ran the pool heater during a freezing spell it spun the meter beyond its rated accurate flow range. We ended paying a lot extra ($900+ for a month) because the meter was freewheeling. They swapped out the undersized meter eventually but did not reduce the bill. FWIW, the meters are ones that still have to be manually read, so another potential source of error.

 

[ClarDold]

Nice to hear someone from Cali chime in. I assume you're in the VPP program there? Texas may be a bit different with our deregulated market in a good part of the state, but all speculation. Tesla was approved as an Retail Electricity Provider (REP) earlier with the VPP update just recently. Not sure how familiar you are with this structure, but the distribution is owned and maintained by a handful off TDUs with the REPs on top.

Question for you as a VPP.
- Did you need to switch electric companies?
- You get extra money to allow Tesla to control your PWs. How does that work? You're likely under a netmeter plan with your current electric provider to sell back to your grid. What determines if you get traditional net meter credit vs Tesla taking control?

I am in California, subscribed to Sonoma Clean Power, a community choice aggregator (CCA) using PG&E facilities and rate plan.
I participate in Tesla VPP, which triggered for a few evenings in a row, September 9, 2022.
Separately, I have Enel-X JuiceBox control handed to SCP for suppressing charging during high demand periods. That has never impacted my charging, and I've only noticed it invoked twice in the past seven years.
I have a demand response device on my AC through PG&E, which has never been invoked.
--
VPP has no effect on my existing rate plan or provider. Tesla doesn't control my Powerwalls any more than they used to, except for VPP periods. In some cases, I was given 24 hour advanced notice of VPP activity. Maybe one notice covers a period of several days, because I didn't get advance notice for subsequent days, even when there was a gap where no event occured.
I have Storm Watch, where the Powerwall charged to 100%, using some energy from the grid, before a predicted event that didn't occur.
I have VPP, which exported ~4.4 kW for the length of the VPP, up to three hours. PG&E will reimburse $2/kWh

Date	kWh	$2/kWh
2022-09-01	-4.43
2022-09-03	-8.85
2022-09-04	-13.3
2022-09-05	-9.98
2022-09-06	-11.08
2022-09-07	-13.26
2022-09-08	-13.29
2022-09-09	-13.28
2022-09	-87.47	-$174.94

 

[garrity]

How are the Tesla Texas VPP doing currently with the current Texas heat wave?

 

[Jones1]

How are the Tesla Texas VPP doing currently with the current Texas heat wave?

One coworker made $300 credit.
My other coworker made $500 credit.
I made nothing. I have a PowerPlus.

 

[Jones1]

It’s Coming!!!

https://x.com/cjonesplay/status/1701923676357001320?s=46&t=sZvvg0VHSWYgLl9a_6qNMg

 

[Jones1]