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tftf on SA. Tired of him yet?

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Gen III is the only reason why the price is approaching $200. If Tesla said they would be content with making Model S platform variants and selling under 100k units indefinitely, the price would not be that high.

One thing to keep in mind when investing, is that the stock price is based on what people are expecting the company to do, NOT how the company is doing at the current exact moment. That's why people who shorted Tesla based on its "overvaluation" lost their shirts.
 
tft: You carry some implicit assumptions along. We do not know how Tesla is going to build up with Model III. They are able to start very smoothly with tolerable CAPEX as their plant is said to able to house more lines. The smaller platform opens also luxury markets where the S is too large to be practical. Tesla might well start at the high end of this "niche" and could follow a very low risk path. Along that road there are also some wild cards to be played. Daimler and Toyota are important interested parties.
 
Alfred, yes, we do not know details, but important goals and numbers (30-35k USD base price, 200 miles of range, maybe dual-batteries or other battery improvements, due in late 2016), therefore assumptions can be made regarding price and margin challaneges as well as the competitors awaiting the Gen III car.

Agreed, Daimler and Toyota are two wild cards, but TSLA is already priced beyond perfection imho at the moment (and apparently not for sale in the next few years, according to the CEO). Maybe a JV with either of the two companies would be a middle ground for Gen III (production). That would be another exit from the current strategy, say Plan C.

In my view, regardless of plan A (current strategy), B (Porsche exit) or C (outsource Gen III): The share price upside is now very limited at close to $200 and the downside risk is very large.

Some of my lines of thought can also be read similarly in a Citron Research report from Sept, 25, 2013, seee eg. on page 3 regarding the Gen III car: http://www.citronresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/tsla-final.pdf

(Forget about the many errors in that PDF for a moment, there are still sections worth reading)

Key quote: Moving down-market is a dogfight.

But as I pointed out earlier, I know that most people reading this forum will not agree and believe in the current strategy going forward, so I will leave it at that.
 
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Big mistake equating Tesla's share price with future Genlll sales. They are MUCH more than a car company.

Supercharger network alone could be a huge profit maker with partnerships, grid storage, battery swapping ect.

Licensing "Tesla Tech" to others, carbon credits (think international instead of just USA).

Who knows, they could even end up making Hyperloop parts in the future. Tesla's net worth will be SO much higher than it's Genlll execution.

Tesla will be doing things that Porsche would never even dream of.
 
Have to comment this one:

Big mistake equating Tesla's share price with future Genlll sales. They are MUCH more than a car company.

Supercharger network alone could be a huge profit maker with partnerships, grid storage, battery swapping ect.

Licensing "Tesla Tech" to others, carbon credits (think international instead of just USA).

Who knows, they could even end up making Hyperloop parts in the future. Tesla's net worth will be SO much higher than it's Genlll execution.

Tesla will be doing things that Porsche would never even dream of.

These are ideas. I will believe when I see it in actual revenue numbers. Superchargers are very proprietary in nature, including the plug. Licensing is very small to rounding errors compared to Model S sales.

Reminds me of the tech boom in the late 90s, because valuations didn't add up, analysts thought of all sorts of additional metrics ("eyeballs") and ideas what might happen one day to justify the current market caps.

Similarly, you could say Honda makes planes and humanoid robots, both true statements. Honda could sell millions of robots and thousands of business planes one day. But is that in Honda's market cap already?

PS: Regarding Porsche and dreams. Porsche is part of VW Group with a total R&D budget of around 10 billion USD (depends on EUR exchange rate), they can dream up many things in the future:

Volkswagen Group - Annual Report 2012 - Key RD figures
 
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As I've repeatedly pointed out to you on SA the plug in Europe is the standard Mennekes.

Have to chime in once again : My reply to Jeff (and his argument, if I understood correctly) was about further monetizing these Superchargers (SC) in the future. As long as no other brand can use these stations there is no revenue beyond TSLA car sales, the $2k from lower-end buyers or maybe sponsorship deals with property owners.

Many countries now build DC fast chargers using public funds; in short, my and your tax money is subsidizing other EV brands' infrastructure.

PS: Assuming "free", branded DC charging stations make sense, another manufacturer can duplicate the SC quickly for 100-200 million USD around the globe. The SC network offers no unique, strategic TSLA advantage by 2020. Take the 10 billion R&D/year figure from VW Group as a more general indicator what the "Big Boys" can come up if they feel troubled by TSLA in a few years, for example in the battery space:

Many of top R&D labs around the world (some already with R&D money/investments from car companies) are working on better battery tech as well. How about a big TSLA competitor buying exclusive access into such patented technology for automotive purposes etc.? You can't assume TSLA holds UNIQUE magic balls when it comes to battery tech and BMS 5-10 years into the future. There are major forces (eg. all mobile gadget makers, including giants such as AAPL) pushing for better batteries outside of TSLA as well.
 
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Miro Kefurt. There's a blast from the past. He ran or used to run Synlube, a very different engine lubricant that ostensibly made AMS Oil look sophomoric. I tried it out in my ol' Chrysler Cirrus, as a way to get around oil changes, but oil gets dirty because gas is dirty, and it eventually had issues with filtration. I'm sure if I had managed to remove the expensive, fiberglass oil filter and washed it out on a regular basis, I would have been able to last as long as the other folks did, provided I didn't live in a cold climate. The only way to get around an oil change is to get rid of an engine and use a motor. If Mr. Kefurt is negative about Tesla Motors, it's because of his business interests in the ICE.
 
Have to chime in once again : My reply to Jeff (and his argument, if I understood correctly) was about further monetizing these Superchargers in the future. As long as no other brand can use these stations there is no revenue beyond TSLA car sales, the $2k from lower-end buyers or maybe sponsorship deals with property owners.

I'm sure Tesla will be very happy to sell their drivetrain technology to other manufacturers. But at this point the only reason we're having this discussion is because Tesla is the company driving the market and that's what they have to continue to do. My view is that Tesla is trying to get to a position that will force other manuacturers to license their technology.

Tesla would be able to produce drivetrains at Fremont in very high numbers, much higher numbers than they could manufacture whole cars. Drivetrains also do not need a large network of stores and service centers. It's quite possible that in a mature market, Tesla could manufacture only high-end cars while being a drivetrain supply to one or more other manufacturers, which would allow them to scale back on other costs.

Something I don't understand is why you think that their Gen 3 strategy is risky. Gen 3 is about a research push to make the electric drivetrain and other supporting technologies cheaper (and better in the case of charging), so that volume production will allow them to bring the base price down to a target of $35k.

If Tesla achieve its price target they'll raise the money to build out global production. If Tesla fails to achieve its price target, they won't.

But in the event of failure to hit the price target, it doesn't mean that the money spent on research will have been lost. Part of the reason Tesla's top-down strategy is so workable is that partial success is still success: lower cost will either increase margin or lower prices (and therefore increase sales volume) and increase profitability either way (I think they'd lower prices to build volume myself). If I recall correctly, in one of the earnings calls Elon Musk has already spoken about the potential for lowering target Model S/X margin to around 20% in the longer term. Having a large amount of spare capacity at Fremont gives Tesla a lot of wiggle room.

Many countries now build DC fast chargers using public funds; in short, my and your tax money is subsidizing other EV brands' infrastructure.

PS: Assuming free DC charging stations make sense, another manufacturer can duplicate this quickly for 100-200 million around the globe. The SC network is no unique, strategic TSLA advantage.

The SC network isn't just about being there, although any established complete network has an advantage. The SC network is also about charging speed and scalability. The competing cars plus network must be able to match or beat the Tesla (wait+charge):drive ratio. The wait time is why Tesla uses a scalable design and continues to push the maximum and sustained rates of charging.

Going back to Tesla driving the market, the problem I see with your assumption is that no other manufacturer yet has a long-range BEV, many are still pushing PHEV and current DC charging stations are serving mid-range BEVs with high charge:drive ratios, which would lead to higher (wait+charge):ratios at volume.

Realistically, they need to have a long-range-BEV-specific DC charger network, but it's hard to build out an equivalent network when you don't have cars. Tesla committed to and started building the cars ahead of the network, and are gradually adding it, and can point to increasing amounts of real data that they can use in negotiations with landowners to say "(Let us) build it and they will come (with money)". But Tesla had no competition in their space. Other late entrants into the market would now be facing a Catch 22: if they try to build the network in advance, it will be hard to convince landowners to lease them space at reasonable rates; if they try to wait they're trying to convince people to buy their long-range BEV on a future promise, instead of a Tesla( Inside) that can use the established network.

The longer the manufacturers delay a release of a long-range BEV the harder it will be to compete with Tesla, which could mean a cooperative coalition will be required, which could further delay release. If during that period of delay just one established volume manufacturer licensed the Tesla drivetrain with Supercharging, it would make it harder for all of the others.

(And you may have noticed above that I didn't even mention the important challenge of matching Tesla's BEV prices without following their cell strategy or without stepping on their patents).
 
+1 ItsNotAboutTheMoney. Great post!

PS: Porsche is part of VW Group with a total R&D budget of around 10 billion USD (depends on EUR exchange rate), they can dream up many things in the future:

Pfft! They couldn't dream up how to get out of their own way with twice that much R&D budget. They've just 'proven' that with their i3 offering for the discounted R&D price of $2 billion - good thing they've got $8 billion left; they're going to need it.

Not sure why you think all of a sudden they're going to get their act together. That's as much a 'dream' or an 'idea' as what anyone else has said here.

It's interesting that you place your ideas in others that currently have offered nothing of competition, nothing of substance. You argue for what might be from them rather than what is from Tesla. I'd say the one taking too much risk right now is you.
 
Reminds me of the tech boom in the late 90s, because valuations didn't add up, analysts thought of all sorts of additional metrics ("eyeballs") and ideas what might happen one day to justify the current market caps.
A lot of these are stretches, but occasionally it's right (Google, Amazon, Ebay). Tesla is one of those examples (the only one AFAIK) in the recent "plug-in boom". Now the core questions is if Tesla can do the same thing twice with Gen III. Most shareholders seem to think yes.

Similarly, you could say Honda makes planes and humanoid robots, both true statements. Honda could sell millions of robots and thousands of business planes one day. But is that in Honda's market cap already?
Doesn't really matter if it's a significant part of the market cap yet. All that matters is if shareholders think it will play a major role in their future. Right now obviously no one sees those efforts by Honda as anything but PR fluff (this is similar to the many concepts that most automakers reveal at car shows).

However, shareholders have a different view of the supercharger network (and even the upcoming battery swap stations). For one, they are actually closely related to Tesla's core business (selling EVs and EV components).

PS: Regarding Porsche and dreams. Porsche is part of VW Group with a total R&D budget of around 10 billion USD (depends on EUR exchange rate), they can dream up many things in the future:
Volkswagen Group - Annual Report 2012 - Key RD figures
They have the money, but do they have the willpower and leadership to do it? The answer is no for a lot of the large auto companies (or Tesla would not be in their position today). Plus don't forget Tesla's patents means that excludes others from directly copying their small cylindrical cell approach (which is why all the other automakers are going with large prismatics).
 
Pfft! They couldn't dream up how to get out of their own way with twice that much R&D budget. They've just 'proven' that with their i3 offering for the discounted R&D price of $2 billion .

i3 at VW? BMW (i series) is not part of the VW Group. The billions BMW spent are for more than two (i3, i8) vehicles, for example the carbon fiber chassis. Carbon is a breakthrough in mass-market production to off-set the battery weight. You can have a look at their five videos (long) showing the entire process from carbon fiber production in the U.S. to final production in Germany: BMW i3 Production - Part 1 - YouTube

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They have the money, but do they have the willpower and leadership to do it? The answer is no for a lot of the large auto companies (or Tesla would not be in their position today). Plus don't forget Tesla's patents means that excludes others from directly copying their small cylindrical cell approach (which is why all the other automakers are going with large prismatics).

Assuming EVs take off in the mass market, they have to. Marketshare is looked at very closely in the auto industry. Once one or two big competitors start moving (namely Nissan-Renault and BMW) and TSLA continues to sell Model S and X, the rest will be forced to shift R&D into EVs/batteries. Sure, there are laggards like Fiat Group and Honda (strangely also Daimler and Toyota as TSLA investors) who at the moment do not believe in "pure" battery vehicles - at least not publicly.

As for the small cylindrical cell approach and patents, I don't have enough details. But I don't think the approach itself was/can be protected since Mazda is also using 18650 cells in prototypes: MAZDA: Electric Vehicle | Environmental Technology

Short-term, other things will probably influence the stock price as mentioned before: The Great Tesla Rotation: From Institutions To Retail Bag-Holders | Zero Hedge

Plus other negative events (FED cheap money train running out of steam and mountains of public debt around the world) on a macro level. Beyond Q4 2013 and the US government shutdown bickering, I therefore see many roadblocks and headwind coming in 2014-2015, not just for TSLA stock, but in general for US and many stock markets around the world.
 
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