Xminus6
Member
This idea of having to retrofit an extra set of side wheels seems really silly. A universal skate made some sense, but the stored extra wheels are kind of dumb.
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The Boring Company Tunnel Event - December 18, 2018
- Thread starter redan
- Start date
K-MTG
Sunshade Captain of TMC
A $300 add on is a worse idea than an X thousands of dollars skate with motors, pack, and control system?
Tesla doesn't have the extra capacity to make many skates at this point in time. Whereas wheels are a non-battery mechanical construct.
The skate also forces the trench width to be largest car side + two sets of tires + clearance. The extra wheels makes it widest car + idler wheel minimum instead.
It also provides a gating mechanism for access. The wheel assembly can have a transponder to authenticate the car's suitability to Loop access (no ICE).
K-MTG
Sunshade Captain of TMC
Thought I would grab lunch there today but a 3 hour line....
Did you leave your info with the folks at the check in area for a future ride? Also they were giving out Boring hats on my way out.
K-MTG
Sunshade Captain of TMC
I think it seems redundant to have an electric car on a electric skate. Even the electric skate was planned to be battery powered...running high voltage cable on something that moves 150 mph is expensive!
We did talk to someone who said we would be invited back out in the future and we each got a hat too. I felt fortunate since they ran out of hats early on at the Semi event last year and I didn't get one then.
Xminus6
Member
A $300 retrofit? It seems to have hydraulics or at least electric motors to deploy. It also seems like there would have be considerable extra work done to retrofit it to an existing car. I don't see enough space under my Model X to stow a whole extra set of horizontal wheels, braces and associated mechanicals. I just don't see any way that adding those to an existing car could come close to $300. You can't even buy floor mats for $300. Plus, I wouldn't trust my car to fly along those tunnels at 150mph on $300 retrofit wheels.
It also effectively limits the tunnels to Teslas since no other manufacturer will have much incentive to build the tunnel wheels into their cars. The skate was a more elegant solution because it's somewhat universal. Our family alone has owned 5 EVs and none of them could accommodate those wheels.
Longer term, it also negates one of the benefits of a long-range Hyper/Loop system. If I want to go down to LA from the Bay Area and a more idealized Loop system, I could arrive in LA with essentially the same SOC as what I left with, minus some AC usage. Now the Loop must also check SOC for each vehicle because running out of juice in a long underground tunnel with no way around the stalled car is going to be a disaster I'd wish on nobody.
I think the idea of this retractable wheel gear is brilliant! It makes it so easy to retrofit existing cars, quickly and inexpensively!
And this design doesn't preclude specialized electric skates or passanger pods, it just provides one more option, opens a lot of new possibilities!
And this design doesn't preclude specialized electric skates or passanger pods, it just provides one more option, opens a lot of new possibilities!
Cost of wheel system (at any number) is less than the cost of a skate. The wheel system allows car usage of the loop to be determined by user demand, not skate count. With wheels, loop capacity is loop size/ design. With skates, loop capacity is (charged) skate count. This new setup allows Boring to focus pods on pedestrians/ cyclists instead of splitting capex on pedestrians vs cars.
Of course no one currently package protects for loop wheels. However, if the loop system exists, other companies will have an incentive to either have loop wheels as a factory option or include mount points for them. Else, Tesla eats more of their lunch.
SOC is an issue with skates or without, only change is the initial charge requires for a trip. AC or heat can drain a pack to 0 just like driving can. Loop needs a method to reject cars on 0-x%. Failed cars can be retrieved by a tow vehicle sent from the 'wrong' direction while traffic takes a parallel route (worst case, a route goes half-duplex).
Putting the charging on the individual cars vs the skates reduces the quantity of skates needed even further.
For Cars:
Skates: >>1 skate required per car, Boring must have sufficient skates in the correct location for peak traffic.
Wheels: 1 set per car, user purchased
Hyperloop uses partial vacuume tunnels, pods are required for that system.
HankLloydRight
No Roads
I'm just going to drop this here. 
Visionary Brain Genius Elon Musk Has Invented The World's Worst And Most Expensive Subway
Visionary Brain Genius Elon Musk Has Invented The World's Worst And Most Expensive Subway
I'm just going to drop this here.
Visionary Brain Genius Elon Musk Has Invented The World's Worst And Most Expensive Subway
Why did you feel the need to drop a deuce on this fine site?
Article totally ignores that the loop will prioritize pedestrian and cyclists via ~16 person pods (no car needed). Also ignores that the first test tunnel's speed is not the design target (stated by Elon, they didn't have time to finish smoothing it).
Also ignores that the tunnel cost was 1/90 of a typical subway.
HankLloydRight
No Roads
Because "prioritizing for pedestrian and cyclists" will do nothing for the "soul crushing traffic" problems that sparked the original boring idea.
I have no problem with Elon drilling tunnels for a lot less than ever before. That is a huge innovation, sure. Drill cheap tunnels for new subways.
But in terms of passengers per hour, the "loop" will never approach a subway that was invented 150 years ago. The actual speed of the pods doesn't really matter when you're only carrying 5 or 6 people at a time.
I have no problem with Elon drilling tunnels for a lot less than ever before. That is a huge innovation, sure. Drill cheap tunnels for new subways.
But in terms of passengers per hour, the "loop" will never approach a subway that was invented 150 years ago. The actual speed of the pods doesn't really matter when you're only carrying 5 or 6 people at a time.
K-MTG
Sunshade Captain of TMC
But subways have to constantly stop at every station...where people have to get in & out.
HankLloydRight
No Roads
Then think of the Loop as an express subway from point A to B. If you have loop skates or pods travelling at 150 mph in a loop tunnel, it's going to get really complex, really fast to have long merge on-ramps for new pods to merge into existing traffic at 150mph, and long deceleration ramps to exit the main loop for each "loop stop".
After a while, the spacing of pods is going to continue to decrease as loop traffic increases... so you'll eventually have several pods all traveling together at the same speed to the same location. Then maybe link them together so only one pod is supplying propulsion, instead of all the pods being individually powered (less efficient). Hmmm..that sounds a lot like a subway.
I've been on TMC long enough to know that there's never any way to present or argue an opposing point of view w/r/t to anything Elon Musk related, so I'm not going to get baited into a flame war. But in the long run, I think even Elon will realize that the pod/skate idea is extremely inefficient for anything longer than a couple of miles in a point-to-point system (like airport or parking lot shuttles where it would work pretty well). I don't think the Loop will solve the soul crushing traffic problems.
The article ignores the passenger pods, thus my statement. Are cars less dense than pods, sure. Can that be compensated for in number of tunnels? Yes. Does a 80MPH tunnel under a city carry more cars then a 35 MPH street with traffic lights? Yep. Does the shifting of cars and people to new tunnel routes improve surface traffic? Yep.
If subways are so great, why are there busses and taxis? Obviously, subways have not eliminated the traffic problem.
Trunk vs branch can be simple. Say 10 stops on a branch line with one on and one off merge. Elevators place cars on the branch track directly (low speed at that point, so the discontinuity is not a problem). System handles loading to minimize delays.
If subways are so great, why are there busses and taxis? Obviously, subways have not eliminated the traffic problem.
Trunk vs branch can be simple. Say 10 stops on a branch line with one on and one off merge. Elevators place cars on the branch track directly (low speed at that point, so the discontinuity is not a problem). System handles loading to minimize delays.
HankLloydRight
No Roads
Subways, busses, and taxis all serve different purposes for different users/people. They are not redundant.
By that same logic, if taxis are so great, why is there Uber and Lyft?
Also, try shutting down the subways and regional rail lines in any big city like NYC or Chicago, and you'll see exactly the effect that subways and rail have on surface traffic. To say "Obviously, subways have not eliminated the traffic problem" is short-sighted... NOTHING will eliminate the traffic problem (not even Loop), but seriously, subways and regional rail have greatly reduced the traffic on highways and surface streets by taking away millions of people-miles from those roads every day.
The Loop will never approach the passenger-miles that subways currently offer. Elon should just make the Boring Company the cheapest and most efficient tunnel boring company there is (like he did with SpaceX).... and then let other companies build good old-fashioned subways in those tunnels, even electric ones, like most subways already are today. The Loop with 150 mph pods with 10-12 people each will never see real production like the cute promo videos portray. It will be good for short-run shuttles at airports, stadiums, or amusement parks, but that's about it. It's not going to change the world of traffic.
Remember when Dean Kamen invented/announced the Segway, and it was supposed to revolutionize the world of pedestrian transport, and all the big visionaries at the time signed on to his vision? But now the Segway is relegated to mall cops and city tourist attractions. It's like that.
If Lyft, Uber, subways, taxis and buses can all co-exist, why the hate for Loop?
Uber will never match the passenger-miles of a subway, nor will buses, taxis, or Lyft, so why single out Loop which could do so with a large enough network?
Why are you so sure this system, that can be built for a fraction of the price of light rail, let alone subway, will not work?
Capacity needs to expand, where else, besides underground, are you going to put additional capacity? How much will additional subway lines cost, where will the platforms go? Are you sharing tracks with express trains? How will you get the people from the platform to where they need to be? How does that do anything to the amount of cars commuting on congested roads from the suburbs?
I remember that people hyped the crap out of "It", then were disappointed their hypotheses of what "It" was were wrong...
Slingshot, a biographical movie about Kamen is currently on Prime.
What does that have to do with Loop? Elon said he is not against existing public transport, why not give something new a chance.
HankLloydRight
No Roads
What's this? An actual reasonable discussion on TMC? Unheard of.
Because I believe the Loop is just an inefficient subway (or will evolve into one). A cheap one, yes, but the inefficiency outstrips the reduced cost. It has lots of flash and hype potential, but it's a problem we solved 150 years ago.
Because I believe that when Elon made that original tweet (see: Elon Musk on Twitter) that he was on a LA highway like the 405 or 10 that always get jammed up -- where more light rail or regional rail would help. (I believe) he wasn't on surface streets in the actual downtown (where a subway would help). This page has some details on the problem in LA.
Just to address the daily commuting traffic delays in LA, Elon would have to drill dozens of parallel tunnels to even make a dent on the surface traffic. So if Boring Co can drill a tunnel for 1/10th the cost of one regular subway tunnel, but you need 10 of them to reach the same level of passenger-miles, is it really that beneficial? If anything, Elon should scale-up the tunnel boring technology to dig really big tunnels cheaply, then just put in regular subways or rail.
I'm willing to 'give it a chance' but if you really take the Loop idea to an extreme (necessary to actually make a dent in traffic levels), it's really just a subway.
Because I believe the Loop is just an inefficient subway (or will evolve into one). A cheap one, yes, but the inefficiency outstrips the reduced cost. It has lots of flash and hype potential, but it's a problem we solved 150 years ago.
Because I believe that when Elon made that original tweet (see: Elon Musk on Twitter) that he was on a LA highway like the 405 or 10 that always get jammed up -- where more light rail or regional rail would help. (I believe) he wasn't on surface streets in the actual downtown (where a subway would help). This page has some details on the problem in LA.
Just to address the daily commuting traffic delays in LA, Elon would have to drill dozens of parallel tunnels to even make a dent on the surface traffic. So if Boring Co can drill a tunnel for 1/10th the cost of one regular subway tunnel, but you need 10 of them to reach the same level of passenger-miles, is it really that beneficial? If anything, Elon should scale-up the tunnel boring technology to dig really big tunnels cheaply, then just put in regular subways or rail.
I'm willing to 'give it a chance' but if you really take the Loop idea to an extreme (necessary to actually make a dent in traffic levels), it's really just a subway.
What's this? An actual reasonable discussion on TMC? Unheard of.
Because I believe the Loop is just an inefficient subway (or will evolve into one). A cheap one, yes, but the inefficiency outstrips the reduced cost. It has lots of flash and hype potential, but it's a problem we solved 150 years ago.
Because I believe that when Elon made that original tweet (see: Elon Musk on Twitter) that he was on a LA highway like the 405 or 10 that always get jammed up -- where more light rail or regional rail would help. (I believe) he wasn't on surface streets in the actual downtown (where a subway would help). This page has some details on the problem in LA.
Just to address the daily commuting traffic delays in LA, Elon would have to drill dozens of parallel tunnels to even make a dent on the surface traffic. So if Boring Co can drill a tunnel for 1/10th the cost of one regular subway tunnel, but you need 10 of them to reach the same level of passenger-miles, is it really that beneficial? If anything, Elon should scale-up the tunnel boring technology to dig really big tunnels cheaply, then just put in regular subways or rail.
I'm willing to 'give it a chance' but if you really take the Loop idea to an extreme (necessary to actually make a dent in traffic levels), it's really just a subway.
I try to be logical/ reasonable.
Interesting note is that they call out LA and being a completely different situation than NYC.
For LA:
From the article
So subways (in LA) won't help. People have cars with associated starting and ending parking spots. In this scenario, high speed/ throughput routes for cars is what is needed, even though subways can carry more people.
Even as an A to B route, an few express tunnels on the 405 with ramps every 5 miles could be a big boost to throughput.
Flow is a known problem, either you need more velocity, density, or cross section. Boring adds speed and cross section at the expense of density. The inital Boring tunnel was less than 1/10 the cost of surface level light rail. It was 1/90th the cost of subway construction. So if you needed 10x the Boring tunnels to match capacity, it would still be 1/9 the cost and have 10x the routes and some multiple of the stops with (stop multiple)^2 available routes. Or 90 miles of Boring tunnel (20 Gary weeks) for the cost of one mile of subway. 5 TBM one month: 90 miles of new routes. Even at 1/4 that pace, I think it's pretty cool.
I'm sure Boring would be willing to have their tech used for subways, however the time and cost savings would decrease due to increaed area. Additionally, TBM forces you to be at least 2 tunnel diameters below the surface to be unnoticed, that puts your platforms at least 50 feet or so sub-grade verses the cut and cover technique. Much harder to build and increases need for escalators vs 5 stories of stairs.
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