The controversy in fast charging for electric vehicles

[Eberhard]

I charge with the Schuko most with 10A, only when needed 13A

 

[emq]

The little blue single-phase CEE socket known as Camper socket is 16A rated and would not get hotQUOTE]

In Mendrisio and 50km around we (park&charge) installed 1996 Menekes CEE16plus Mode3 for 6 HondaEVPlus: Plug in & out without current, With Mode 3 comunication ok, > 32A with the CEE16 (plus = Mode3 Comunication) for 8h Charging.

CEE16 is capable for 32A permanent without Plug in & Out.

Schuko is in Door privat use
CEExx is Outdoor and Industry

Electromobility is a Outdoor and Industry application

 

[jkirkebo]

I wonder, why the pubic charging station are still offering schuko-sockets. The little blue single-phase CEE socket known as Camper socket is 16A rated and would not get hot.

Probably because all the charging cables included with the EVs so far have Schuko-plugs on them. Using a CEE socket would mean another adapter and you'd go through a Schuko anyways.

 

[Eberhard]

The little blue single-phase CEE socket known as Camper socket is 16A rated and would not get hotQUOTE]

In Mendrisio and 50km around we (park&charge) installed 1996 Menekes CEE16plus Mode3 for 6 HondaEVPlus: Plug in & out without current, With Mode 3 comunication ok, > 32A with the CEE16 (plus = Mode3 Comunication) for 8h Charging.

CEE16 is capable for 32A permanent without Plug in & Out.


Schuko is in Door privat use
CEExx is Outdoor and Industry

Electromobility is a Outdoor and Industry application

I was in Chiasso and wanted to charge at 32A with those socket, but my adapters does not fit. Do you have an adapter to fit on my Tesla blue CEE 32A single-phase adapter? I had to charge on 16A Schuko for 16h, was prettty hot then.
I wonder why Tesla is still giving the spare adapter with 16A Schuko, better with blue CEE 16A.

 

[Norbert]

we expect to deploy 3 Phase "Mennekes" for under $500 excluding installation... this is really simple technology that can be deployed very cheaply.

Does this include a card reader for payment? While I could imagine that hotels might offer this service for free or for a fixed fee, I'd assume that many other places will, after an introductory period, ask for payment at least to cover the costs.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Does this include a card reader for payment?

It could.... However, none of the Hotels/B&B/Restaurants/Pubs that we are talking to intend to charge directly for the electricity. In most cases the electricity for charging an EV will be less than the cost of a bottle of 'posh' mineral water. if you keep the systems simple then the businesses can recover the cost of the electricity when you pay for the bed/food/drink....

It's also worth remembering that the more complex you make these systems the less reliable they become.... I've never had a problem with a 'dumb' electricity socket but I've had plenty with 'intelligent' Charging Stations.

 

[Norbert]

Compare the importance of two extra miles of range to the ability to use the charge points available to you.

This also about weight (and size) improvements, not just direct electric efficiency. (Besides reducing cost).

I haven't read all of it yet, my German isn't all that good, but so far I think it is quite precise and to the point, very well thought through and focused on feasibility. Also, it is written by a fairly unbiased group of engineers, instead of EV enthusiasts, politicians or marketing departments. It's written by the German association of electrical and electronics engineers, not a group of companies.

They mention 2020 so often because Germany has set a target of one million EVs on the roads by 2020.

Perhaps, but in regard to what exactly will or could happen at exactly which point in time, it is more than vague. What does "introducing" mean?

My translation from page 11: "Concerning AC charging, charging power of up to 44 kW at 400 Volt is technically feasible within the time frame. Charging times of less than 30 minutes can be achieved within 2015. Due to the higher charging load, control with regard to available grid capacity is necessary. An intelligent connection to the grid is recommended from the start."

But what is this supposed to mean? While it merely mentions a technical possibility, CHAdeMO could claim to already have achieved this, in reality.

Nissan is essentially yelling "Damn the torpedoes! Full ahead!", they are pushing ahead without much thought to how this will actually work down the road. The Germans are pausing to consider how charging at powers approaching 50 kW will affect the grid and how they can integrate this new requirement into the existing infrastructure.

But you are right, the Germans are prioritizing AC because they see that they can get lots of three phase charging poles out there by 2020, while DC quick charging is much harder to implement and the situation concerning standardization is unresolved. The same goes for battery swapping. They are making sure that what they are trying to do is actually possible to achieve within the time frame, and they know that AC charging is. But they are aware of the future potential of DC as an addition to three phase AC.

CHAdeMO is finding out that implementing a DC charging infrastructure based on 50 kW chargers is difficult. They have to upgrade the electrical service to get enough power, the chargers must be very densely spaced for people to actually use them, and they are a single point of failure, like Kevin Sharpe pointed out. They are a very long way from making CHAdeMO chargers pay for themselves, even with paid membership. They aren't profitable even when the competition is home charging at 3.7 kW. Add to this competition from 44 kW AC charging, which will become a reality before 2020 and has a third of the installation costs or less, and the future of 50 kW CHAdeMO is beginning to look very grim.

That might sound convincing if Japan hadn't already implemented DC fast charging across the country (and Nissan dealers in GB). The belief that DC quick charging is difficult to implement is a myth, encouraged by car companies which don't have real EVs yet, and by utilities which want to minimize *their* cost of making forward-looking investments until the EV future is guaranteed (in their minds).

Whether fast charging in Europe will be CHAdeMO, or Mennekes DC combo plug, something else, or more than one of those, I'm sure it won't wait until 2020. Specifically Tesla won't wait until 2020 with fast charging for the Model S, even if they have to implement it themselves, and I'm sure Tesla will want DC high power.

I can't find references for the claim that CHAdeMO supports up to 100 kW. All I have found so far is a charger that I believe is able to charge two cars at the same time, at 50 kW each.

We have discussed this recently in another thread, I think TEG posted some document on this. CHAdeMO optionally allows 100 kW by specifying a second optional cable diameter. (Obviously both the car and the charger need to support it.)

I have completely missed the suggestions of DC as an addition to three phase. I'm very sorry about that. That is my primary requirement, but three phase capability will also affect the market for DC charging.

100 kW DC quick chargers would be useful, no doubt about that, but that is extremely ambitious. Even widespread 44 kW three phase is ambitious, which is why the Germans are taking the time needed to integrate them into the power grid. When multiple 44 kW charging poles are hooked up to the same transformer, they will have to talk to the electric utility's server before they're allowed to go up to 63 A. DC chargers will be equally affected by this, of course.

At some point in the future, when there are 100 kW DC chargers waiting for us some tens of miles apart along the highways, then DC chargers will be a wonderful thing. But it's unrealistic to believe that this will happen before 2020, and in the meantime we're stuck with the 50 kW version.

If not Nissan and Mitsubishi, then Tesla with the Model S will make it happen, and that is much sooner than 2020. There is no real difficulty that I would know of. Model S owners will have no reason to wait until 2020.

You need at least two in each location so you can be sure that at least one is working, or they must be very densely spaced. Otherwise you have a system which fails whenever one link in the chain breaks. How do you intend to handle traffic peaks? The system will not work without redundancy and extra capacity.

It won't all happen on one day, in any case.

I stand by my statement that advertising the capability of charging "from a 480 V outlet" while neglecting to inform that an external box costing $25000 is also required would be dishonest.

The "outlet" part is probably just a misunderstanding on some blogs, if even that, and doesn't mention 3-phase in any way. I haven't seen anything from Tesla itself that could be construed to be even misleading, let alone dishonest. If you want to stand by your statement, you should first base this on a source and quote from Tesla itself.

No, you have to look at the broader picture, these things all interact. You guys could conceivably make do with only single phase and DC, but we need three phase no matter what. The density of charge points is very important and a network of DC chargers can never become dense enough to make level 2 charging unnecessary.

I don't quite understand, above you say you are sorry for missing that DC fast charging is meant in addition to 3-phase, not instead, and now you re-iterate that assumption?

For level 2 charging, three phase is the only alternative in Europe, and once PEMs capable of charging from the grid have been developed, their additional cost will be very low. That will destroy the lower end of the market for DC chargers globally.

No car-maker has yet announced such plans, and usually it will take many years until something like that actually happens. I'm very doubtful 44 kW 3-phase will become a reality before 2020, and hopefully, by then, DC charging will be so common (as it also goes beyond 50 kW), that 44 kW will be just an additional option.

Enabling a single EV to drive across the US is very different from allowing anybody to do the same whenever they want to. There is no way that you can get away with anything remotely similar to $2 million if even five percent of the cars were EVs.

With as much as 5 percent of all cars (12 million in the US), the budget will of course be much larger.

Basing the charging infrastructure on DC would be a mistake, and a large scale rollout of DC chargers at this point would be to start at the wrong end.

None of your arguments are show-stoppers. DC fast charging will happen perhaps before they write the next interim report. In Japan it is already a reality.

I'm hoping for 44 kW, but I might buy it even if it only supports 22 kW. Less than that is a dealbreaker, then I'll have to settle for a Fluence.

Just don't act like the world ends if the Model S won't have 44 kW as a first ever, and then blame Tesla for it. Blame it on the companies who think it is "technically feasible", that they don't even announce such a car themselves.

 

[Norbert]

It could.... However, none of the Hotels/B&B/Restaurants/Pubs that we are talking to intend to charge directly for the electricity. In most cases the electricity for charging an EV will be less than the cost of a bottle of 'posh' mineral water. if you keep the systems simple then the businesses can recover the cost of the electricity when you pay for the bed/food/drink....

It's also worth remembering that the more complex you make these systems the less reliable they become.... I've never had a problem with a 'dumb' electricity socket but I've had plenty with 'intelligent' Charging Stations.

I'd think your reasoning is very valid in so far as you limit it to hotels and similar places.

 

[Norbert]

I can't find references for the claim that CHAdeMO supports up to 100 kW. All I have found so far is a charger that I believe is able to charge two cars at the same time, at 50 kW each.

We have discussed this recently in another thread, I think TEG posted some document on this. CHAdeMO optionally allows 100 kW by specifying a second optional cable diameter. (Obviously both the car and the charger need to support it.)

Adding links and info to my previous reply:

TEG posted this 5/22/2011 in the "TEPCO/CHAdeMO Level III "quick" charging station/connector" thread:
TEPCO/CHAdeMO Level III charging station/connector

There you can see that with a "wire size" of 53.5 mm2 (same connector and plug), the supported current is 200A, which at 500V is 100 kW.

A previous slide in the PDF document (which TEG referred to) also indicates more directly that the standard supports 10 to 100 kW.
http://www.emc-mec.ca/phev/Presentations_en/S12/PHEV09-S12-3_TakafumiAnegawa.pdf
("- Output power: 50kW (10~100kW)" on the slide with the photo of a big red CHAdeMO charger.)

I had previously also read this (100 kW) elsewhere, but didn't keep a reference.

 

[TEG]

Thanks for mentioning those links, Norbert...

 

[Eberhard]

Even the simple Mennekes Type 2 socket support 2x70A = 140A at 500V = 70kW DC or up to 44kW AC. DC makes only sense with local (chemistry) energy storage for uncoupling from the grid.

 

[Norbert]

DC makes only sense with local (chemistry) energy storage for uncoupling from the grid.

Have you ever seen a business district decoupled from the grid? Or heard of utilities protesting against a new building or business? A hotel not being built because the utilities can't supply the power? Maybe it happens once in a while, probably in remote places, but not on a large scale, not in general. Do you have a reference to an objective report describing why there would be a major problem for utilities in supplying the power for a smart-grid capable fast charger? Are there really any other reasons than that utilities shy away from investments because they are not sure yet whether EVs will be a long-term success?

 

[TEG]

Have you ever seen a business district decoupled from the grid? Or heard of utilities protesting against a new building or business? A hotel not being built because the utilities can't supply the power? Maybe it happens once in a while, probably in remote places, but not on a large scale, not in general...

http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/09.07.00/calpine1-0036.html

 

[Norbert]

http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/09.07.00/calpine1-0036.html

Not sure why exactly you posted it, but I've heard that utilities are afraid that there is a danger of situations where everyone fast-charges at the same time, creating peaks like those of from ACs on hot summer days, even when the grid is expected to be able to supply the needed power in average situations. The danger being the black-outs. But that is why fast-chargers (for example AeroVironment's) are made smart-grid capable. This allows the utilities to avoid these non-average situations by lowering the power rate of the fast-chargers at those exceptional peaks, thereby avoiding a black-out.

BTW, I'd think that more solar power plants should be great especially for hot summer days.

 

[TEG]

It was just a local story where a single business and the utility company argued and debated on how to best power their new facility.
A building boom starts to tax the grid, and so local power generation is proposed, but then the "not in my backyard" backlash starts happening.

I was also suggesting that power supply issues can happen even in "big city" metro areas, not just in rural areas.

I think there is an assumption among many that builders just build and the utility will always be available to provide whatever power you need.
But as the existing grid gets maxed out there become cases where localized power generation is required to meet the new power needs.

There were also those stories of Google's use of the Bloombox fuel cells...
The Bloom Box: What All the Fuss Is About Cleantech News and Analysis

Assuming mass adoption of EVs starts happening, there will be a lot of politics around ways to increase electricity production to keep up with demand.

 

[Norbert]

Right, I recently quoted an article saying the grid is in a ramshackle condition. That is a general problem the utilities (as well as the DOE and others) need to solve as demand grows. But CISCO didn't close down because of that. Although some data centers are being built in different states than they would be otherwise, I think also due to power considerations. But then again, the data centers still get built.

 

[Norbert]

Assuming mass adoption of EVs starts happening, there will be a lot of politics around ways to increase electricity production to keep up with demand.

Well, regarding this sentence, one should mention that a) utility companies have acknowledged that the grid will (eventually) be able to accommodate even a full EV fleet, and that b) the grid and power stations, as they currently exist, could support an EV fleet of about 140 million via off-peak charging (I guess with minor upgrades, though).

 

[Lloyd]

If we just put motion sensors on Street lights it would likely save enough energy to power a good percentage of the EV's. Why do we need street lights burining all the time with nobody around? That's always bugged me. Just a ramble and off topic sorry.

 

[Doug_G]

If we just put motion sensors on Street lights it would likely save enough energy to power a good percentage of the EV's. Why do we need street lights burining all the time with nobody around? That's always bugged me. Just a ramble and off topic sorry.

The most efficient types of lights, such as sodium vapor, use a tiny fraction of that required for a fluorescent bulb, but require a substantial amount of warm-up time.

 

[Norbert]

How about LED lights?

Well, for the foreseeable future it won't matter, since even if we manage to build a fast-charging infrastructure, most charging will still be done at home, and it will take many years until there are enough EVs fast-charging to require even a moderate amount of action, compared to the kind of problems utilities have to deal with otherwise.