The Right Michelin Tire

[rooter]

I trust Michelin and Pirelli, but I know Michelin better.

I read here, Primacy this, Super Sport that, etc. No offense, but I don't have any confidence in herd wisdom here, as exemplified by mass acceptance of Blackvue et al.

On Michelin's site entering Tesla MS there is a selection of 7 recommended tires for 19", characterized as "Relaxing Precision", "Exhilaration" (huh?), and other bullsh*t, and ostensibly rated for "Comfort", "Handling", "Braking", etc.

What about wear life? That matters. And bad weather/ Winter behavior? Traditionally tire grip requires soft rubber (braking, cornering), but long life requires hard rubber, and ne'er the twain shall meet. We have to make a decision. Some of us swap Summer for Winter tires for the best fit, but I am suspicious of this distinction (a question of tread pattern for marketing?) and am looking at All-Season.

And only one tire of those 7 recommended stands out for me, the X-Ice Xi3. They rate it not just for "Winter Safety", but also 10 for Wear Life and 10 for Fuel Efficiency. 40k mile and 6 year warranty, and $264 shipped.

How is this not the best Michelin tire? How has this not been noticed?

Even as I have a P85D, I've swapped out the accursed 21" for 19". I get conflicting answers whether the 19" turbines are 8" wide or 8.5". If 8.5" I might be able to get away with putting 265's on it, but if 8" the max would be 255. I have 255's on the back now and there is no bowing. Any authoritative answers welcomed.

Unfortunately I don't find any evidence that the X-Ice comes in 255 or 265, but this tire is such that I could accept 245.

Another aspect of this is road noise. Those of us with pre-2016 cars have lots of road noise, and it comes from the wheel wells. A quiet tire (no, not "quite", that is the wrong word ppls) would be very nice too. Internal foam has been debunked, but there are differences in road noise which apparently Science has not figured out yet.

 

[Ostrichsak]

I'm confused because you say that you don't have any confidence in herd wisdom but it kind of feels like you're requesting herd wisdom with your post.

 

[brianman]

I wasn't sure how to respond either, but I'll give some data I guess.

I found the Michelin Pilot Super Sport very predictable and grippy on the S (P85, P85D, P85D, P100D). I later switched to the all season Michelin A/S 3+ 19" because they tended to last longer for me, and brought some tolerance in the tires for cold weather.

For the Model 3 Performance, the car came with the Michelin Pilot Sport 4S 20" and they feel even better than the PSS. Also the car handles better (less weight helps a lot), of course, and overheating is significantly less of an issue for lapping. Unfortunately, I corded the sidewalls on them in two track days and had to replace them. (Camber seems to be a big issue on the 3 where it was never really an issue for me in the S.)

I picked up an aftermarket set of TSportline 18" with Continental DWS on them, and they fit fine on the M3P even with the calipers constraint. I'll probably turn them into dedicated track wheels, but I haven't narrowed down which tires to go with yet. I'm mulling over my options or the camber issue first.

 

[rooter]

I'm confused because you say that you don't have any confidence in herd wisdom but it kind of feels like you're requesting herd wisdom with your post.

I said it as clearly as I can, and English is my first language. Herd wisdom is useless.

You see, Politics has no interest in facts. And Science, has no use for Politics. These are the two ends of a continuum. We have to make our choice. Which is it?

I am asking for facts, from those who are not easily influenced or confused. If this is confusing or you are not sure, you are not who this thread is intended for. Better no response than a worthless or embarrassing one. Maybe I am in the wrong place.

Moving on, Pirelli offers two choices, one is run-flat (which sounds expensive) and the other is rated for "Comfort" and "Mileage", but not for wet or Winter performance. It does seem though that they are available in 255's.

Independent scientific reviews and comparison testing... matters. At least to me. I'm looking around.

 

[Ostrichsak]

My bad. I clicked this link because I just did a ton of research on 19" tires for my Model S cars including the Michelin offerings and settled on the "perfect tire" for my needs after compiling all of this. I thought maybe I could offer some independent insight to someone on a similar path and just found your wording a bit... odd. I wanted to make sure I wasn't going to waste my time typing up a lot of what I felt was useful info for someone who didn't want it. Now, after clarification, I still have no idea if you are actually seeking information and help based on your attitude so I'll just politely bow out of this thread and wish you the best of luck on your search for info... or not. Whatever it is your attempting to do here.

 

[TMeister]

What a confusing thread. There are multiple researched sources for the information you seek. If you don't want to use opinions then don't ask here cuz you'll get opinions. Do some research on your own.

And I can't resist... picking a winter specific tire for year round use isn't a good idea. Did you miss the part of the 40K mile warranty that says it only applies if used between September and April?

 

[Cheburashka]

Yeah, running a winter tire in SoCal will lead to high noise, mediocre handling, and very low tire life.

The X-Ice sounds like the worst possible tire choice you can make IMO.

I used to live in a climate with all 4 seasons and the difference between winter and summer tires in summer weather is very noticeable.

Also, unclear about 19" "Turbines". Turbines are all 21". Slipstreams are 19".

 

[tga]

The X-Ice sounds like the worst possible tire choice you can make IMO.

No need for the "IMO" qualifier. The X-Ice is the worst possible choice for So Cal. Hands down. Incontrovertible fact. Well, IMO, of course.

But seriously, winter tires have very soft tread compound. In So Cal weather, they will quickly shred into nothingness. You'll almost see a black dust cloud in your rear view mirror.

I've generally had good luck with customer ratings on tirerack.com. They may not be 100% scientific, but will usually "steer" you in the right direction (pun intended), at the risk of some herd mentality, I suppose.

If the OP doesn't travel into the mountains, all-seasons (and certainly winter tires) are pretty much pointless. Buy real performance summer tires, if that's what you want.

 

[dr_rav]

Agree, no reason for a winter tire in socal.
Regarding pirellis, I am not a fan, they are an outdated compound that couldn't match MIchelin's super sports. The super sports are also quite old now. The pirelli's are trash traction wise until they are fully warmed up, confirmed on my 700hp M6 which would spin even 3rd with Pirellis and made the car much less enjoyable. The newest pilot sport 4S are THE benchmark, the car would hook even in 1st and felt like a new car to me. Road noise was improved and surprisingly the ride was smoother as well over bumps, less tracking.
For a performance model P4S are the ones to get, even though they are sticky they last considerably longer than other performance tires, twice as long as the pirellis which lasted 8-9k miles of mostly commuting

 

[realvvk]

I trust Michelin and Pirelli, but I know Michelin better.

I read here, Primacy this, Super Sport that, etc. No offense, but I don't have any confidence in herd wisdom here, as exemplified by mass acceptance of Blackvue et al.

On Michelin's site entering Tesla MS there is a selection of 7 recommended tires for 19", characterized as "Relaxing Precision", "Exhilaration" (huh?), and other bullsh*t, and ostensibly rated for "Comfort", "Handling", "Braking", etc.

What about wear life? That matters. And bad weather/ Winter behavior? Traditionally tire grip requires soft rubber (braking, cornering), but long life requires hard rubber, and ne'er the twain shall meet. We have to make a decision. Some of us swap Summer for Winter tires for the best fit, but I am suspicious of this distinction (a question of tread pattern for marketing?) and am looking at All-Season.

And only one tire of those 7 recommended stands out for me, the X-Ice Xi3. They rate it not just for "Winter Safety", but also 10 for Wear Life and 10 for Fuel Efficiency. 40k mile and 6 year warranty, and $264 shipped.

How is this not the best Michelin tire? How has this not been noticed?

Even as I have a P85D, I've swapped out the accursed 21" for 19". I get conflicting answers whether the 19" turbines are 8" wide or 8.5". If 8.5" I might be able to get away with putting 265's on it, but if 8" the max would be 255. I have 255's on the back now and there is no bowing. Any authoritative answers welcomed.

Unfortunately I don't find any evidence that the X-Ice comes in 255 or 265, but this tire is such that I could accept 245.

Another aspect of this is road noise. Those of us with pre-2016 cars have lots of road noise, and it comes from the wheel wells. A quiet tire (no, not "quite", that is the wrong word ppls) would be very nice too. Internal foam has been debunked, but there are differences in road noise which apparently Science has not figured out yet.

What lunacy is this?

 

[rooter]

No need for the "IMO" qualifier. The X-Ice is the worst possible choice for So Cal. Hands down. Incontrovertible fact. Well, IMO, of course.

But seriously, winter tires have very soft tread compound. In So Cal weather, they will quickly shred into nothingness. You'll almost see a black dust cloud in your rear view mirror.

I've generally had good luck with customer ratings on tirerack.com. They may not be 100% scientific, but will usually "steer" you in the right direction (pun intended), at the risk of some herd mentality, I suppose.

If the OP doesn't travel into the mountains, all-seasons (and certainly winter tires) are pretty much pointless. Buy real performance summer tires, if that's what you want.

Tell the truth: Are you high right now?

Remember the ratings that I pointed out. Winter tires do not have a very soft tread compound because that is the first to stiffen up and lose traction. lol "a cloud of black dust"... Are you one of those who welcomes Global Warming by telling us it will 'make the Midwest like Hawaii'? (seriously, I've had someone tell me that. I think he was the protester holding a sign that said "Moran")

Agree, no reason for a winter tire in socal.

Regarding pirellis, I am not a fan, they are an outdated compound that couldn't match MIchelin's super sports. The super sports are also quite old now. The pirelli's are trash traction wise until they are fully warmed up, confirmed on my 700hp M6 which would spin even 3rd with Pirellis and made the car much less enjoyable. The newest pilot sport 4S are THE benchmark, the car would hook even in 1st and felt like a new car to me. Road noise was improved and surprisingly the ride was smoother as well over bumps, less tracking.

For a performance model P4S are the ones to get, even though they are sticky they last considerably longer than other performance tires, twice as long as the pirellis which lasted 8-9k miles of mostly commuting

Now see? This is how we raise the level of discourse. When the adults who are educated step in.

But actually I do consulting and spend much of my time in the Monsoons of Washington. Thinking this out, this is my major concern, along with road noise and longevity.

The Pilot Sport 4 S consistently gets superb reviews. Unfortunately it has no stiping (Winter traction), and there is no 255/45 or 265/40. The only candidate that comes in my two sizes of interest is the Pilot® Super Sport
Truck Tires, Car Tires and more – Michelin Tires

Fair ratings, but no stiping. What a headache.

Michelin Primacy MXM4 come in 255 and are rated pretty good, at least by Michelin I'll look around some more.

 

[tga]

Tell the truth: Are you high right now?

Remember the ratings that I pointed out. Winter tires do not have a very soft tread compound because that is the first to stiffen up and lose traction. lol "a cloud of black dust"... Are you one of those who welcomes Global Warming by telling us it will 'make the Midwest like Hawaii'? (seriously, I've had someone tell me that. I think he was the protester holding a sign that said "Moran")

I'll ignore your petulant insults and try to educate you further before I give up and put you on ignore (see, that's "how we raise the level of discourse"), although you seem more interested in insulting the people who offer to help then actually getting questions answered.

Tire tech 101:

• Tire tread gets harder when cold and softer when warm.
• In general, summer tires have harder compounds then winter tires (tread is optimized for a particular temperature range).
• When summer tires are used in extreme cold (below freezing), the tread compound becomes too hard for proper adhesion.
• When winter tires are used in high temperatures, the tread becomes too soft and wear accelerates dramatically (the "black cloud of dust comment" was obvious hyperbole; how that degrades to accusations of being a climate change denier is beyond me).

The Pilot Sport 4S is an excellent summer tire. There are better values, however. You can probably get 90% of the performance for half the price if you give up the Michelin name. Its tread design will impact snow traction. The lack of siping (not stiping) will limit ice traction. The harder summer compound will impact dry road traction in the winter as well. Simply put, It will suck in extreme cold (below freezing) in all road conditions.

 

[rooter]

So after much broader research I've narrowed it down to the Pilot Sport A/S3+. I just don't have any more time to spend on this, so it's just a question of where the cheapest.

Tire Rack survey:

 

[tga]

Tesla specs tires with an XL (extra load) load range rating, since the car is so heavy. The PS A/S3+ in 245/45R19 is not an XL tire (only rated for 750kg @ 51PSI), whereas the MXM4 is available with an XL rating (850kg @ 50PSI) in that size. Something to consider.

 

[Ostrichsak]

So after much broader research I've narrowed it down to the Pilot Sport A/S3+. I just don't have any more time to spend on this, so it's just a question of where the cheapest.

Tire Rack survey:

Funny because that's exactly the tire I went with after much research so had you been more polite I could have saved you lots of time and effort. I'd suggest being a little less abrasive if you plan to spend any time here. It's a decent community full of lots of good insight but it doesn't take kindly to that sort of attitude. Like the saying goes, you'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Tesla specs tires with an XL (extra load) load range rating, since the car is so heavy. The PS A/S3+ in 245/45R19 is not an XL tire (only rated for 750kg @ 51PSI), whereas the MXM4 is available with an XL rating (850kg @ 50PSI) in that size. Something to consider.

750kg = 1,653.47lbs
1,653.47 x 4 = 6,613.88lbs
Stock P100D weight = 4,960lbs
Difference of -1,653.88

Even a Model S P100D is less than 5k pounds so those conservative #'s of 750kg load rating per tire are plenty of wiggle room for a occupied Model S P100D.

Other Teslas are lower weight with the Model X being roughly 500lbs heavier so if you drive a Model X you may want to pay more attention to this even though you're still over 1,000lbs under the load rating. On just about any Model S that tire will offer more than enough load rating compliance.

FWIW, Tesla doesn't even approve of ANY aftermarket wheel (even those built to higher DOT ratings than the OEM offerings at the same size) so it makes it hard to not question what they say is right or not for the car. Some of the things they state seem a bit unreasonable so I take them with a grain of salt.

That tire on a Model S properly maintained with regular pressure checks & scheduled rotations will be just fine.

 

[Struja]

I wanted to suggest a different route. Dunlop SP Sport Maxx A1 A/S.

I know you said Michelin and frankly, I don't know a thing about the Dunlop's other than they were the cheapest tire on Tirerack (at a $118 a tire). https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tire...oYear=2018&autoModel=Model S&autoModClar=100D

With the money you've saved, you can take a class on manners and etiquette.

 

[rooter]

So let's do the calculus on this thread.

I set up the issue and made clear that high standards are called for. A number got hung up on and upset by the term "herd wisdom", insulted because they are part of the herd and unceasingly follow it, yet resent that reality being overtly presented. One or two actually pitched in with objective facts and useful information. The remainder said what they had to and spiced it with some petulance to 'get back at me'.

It is a shame that some live really insecure. It is a pity. And it is a mental illness. But it is not my fault. I made very clear that standards matter. And I shared my journey with you even though I didn't have to. It was not worth it.

I guess most don't have the kind of meritocratic work that I do and do not live or die by the quality of their judgments. This is why we are overrunning the planet, the lack of worthy predators to cull the weak.

My guess though is that nature will find a way. Maybe an unstoppable disease. There are too many of us muddling along, consuming resources and senselessly coasting and undeservedly breeding.

Ah well, back to normal.

 

[Ostrichsak]

So let's do the calculus on this thread.

I set up the issue and made clear that high standards are called for. A number got hung up on and upset by the term "herd wisdom", insulted because they are part of the herd and unceasingly follow it, yet resent that reality being overtly presented. One or two actually pitched in with objective facts and useful information. The remainder said what they had to and spiced it with some petulance to 'get back at me'.

It is a shame that some live really insecure. It is a pity. And it is a mental illness. But it is not my fault. I made very clear that standards matter. And I shared my journey with you even though I didn't have to. It was not worth it.

I guess most don't have the kind of meritocratic work that I do and do not live or die by the quality of their judgments. This is why we are overrunning the planet, the lack of worthy predators to cull the weak.

My guess though is that nature will find a way. Maybe an unstoppable disease. There are too many of us muddling along, consuming resources and senselessly coasting and undeservedly breeding.

Ah well, back to normal.

tl;dr

 

[rooter]

Whups, apparently black dust clouds behind Pilot Sport A/S3+.

Back to the X-Ice Xi3. Maybe a little squishy, but great bad weather traction and tread life.

 

[TMeister]

Whups, apparently black dust clouds behind Pilot Sport A/S3+.

Back to the X-Ice Xi3. Maybe a little squishy, but great bad weather traction and tread life.

You obviously have selectively read the thread to rationalize your viewpoint. But that's how these things go. Again, choosing the X-Ice tire as a year round tire will not make you happy. It will work well in snow and ice but will be noisy and have little grip in the summer. The warranty is void if you run it year round. Do not expect 40k miles. Read the warranty card carefully to understand how tire warranties work. They are prorated to a minimum tread and have other restrictions.