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There’s a new effort to remove the EV tax credit cap just as Tesla and GM are about to hit it

NCAviator

Member
Aug 19, 2017
135
124
North Carolina
Moves are underway in Congress to eliminate the limit on number of vehicles sold per manufacturer: There’s a new effort to remove the EV tax credit cap just as Tesla and GM are about to hit it

So many here are concerned and complain about loosing their tax credit. Especially Model 3 reservation holders.

Surprised more are not contacting their elected representatives to voice their support.

Personally, I would prefer that our government not pick winners and losers or redistribute tax $.
 
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GTKAZ

Member
Supporting Member
Dec 24, 2017
108
90
Seattle / Portland
I agree with you. I think it'd make more sense to put an overall end date on the tax credits than limit each manufacturer. We're obviously Tesla biased, but I feel both Tesla and GM have paved the way for EVs and should be rewarded for putting down the ground work for the other manufacturers.....Not for the VW group, Jaguar, etc. to sit on their heels and then reap the same benefits for customers years later.
 

evp

Nerd
Supporting Member
Nov 28, 2014
775
1,147
Arvada, CO
Remember that the goal of the incentive was to kick-start new electric vehicle manufacturers - get them "over the hump". i think you could argue that both Tesla and GM are close to the top of the hump.

Now, in Norway, they believe they're over the hump when the last ICE factory shuts down.
 
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RobStark

Well-Known Member
Jul 2, 2013
10,926
57,608
Los Angeles, USA
Personally, I would prefer that our government not pick winners and losers or redistribute tax $.

I agree. Congress should stop picking the Fossil Fuel industries as winners. How about we start with repealing the following 9 provisions.

1)Deductions for the costs of drilling wells
Location in tax code: 26 U.S.C. § 263(c)

Amount saved by repealing: $13.1 billion between 2018 and 2026



2)Domestic manufacturing deduction for oil and gas production

Location in tax code: 26 U.S.C. § 199

Amount saved by repealing: $10.9 billion between 2018 and 2026


3)Deductions for the depletion of oil and gas deposits
Location in tax code: 26 U.S.C. § 613A(c)(1)

Amount saved by repealing: $12.1 billion between 2018 and 2026



4)Deductions for the depletion of oil shale deposits

Location in tax code: 26 U.S.C. § 613(b)(2)(B)

Amount saved by repealing: The U.S. Treasury would save $840 million between 2018 and 2026 by repealing the depletion deduction for all hard mineral fossil fuels, of which oil shale is one. The amount applying to oil shale alone is unknown.



5)Deductions for the costs of oil shale exploration and development

Location in tax code: 26 U.S.C. § 617

Amount saved by repealing: The U.S. Treasury would save $768 million between 2018 and 2026 by repealing this tax preference for certain mining exploration expenditures, including expenditures for oil shale. The amount applying to oil shale alone is unknown.


6) Amortization of geological and geophysical expenditures
Location in tax code: 26 U.S.C. § 167(h)

Amount saved: $1.3 billion between 2018 and 2026


7)Deductions for tertiary injectants
Location in tax code: 26 U.S.C. § 193

Amount saved by repealing: $100 million between 2018 and 2026


8)Exception to passive loss limitation for working interests in oil and natural gas properties
Location in tax code: 26 U.S.C. § 469(c)(3)

Amount saved by repealing: $310 million between 2018 and 2026


9)Marginal wells tax credit
Location in tax code: 26 U.S.C. § 45I

Amount saved by repealing: $0, unless oil and natural gas prices fall below a certain threshold
 

NCAviator

Member
Aug 19, 2017
135
124
North Carolina
I agree. Congress should stop picking the Fossil Fuel industries as winners. How about we start with repealing the following 9 provisions.

1)Deductions for the costs of drilling wells
Location in tax code: 26 U.S.C. § 263(c)

Amount saved by repealing: $13.1 billion between 2018 and 2026



2)Domestic manufacturing deduction for oil and gas production

Location in tax code: 26 U.S.C. § 199

Amount saved by repealing: $10.9 billion between 2018 and 2026


3)Deductions for the depletion of oil and gas deposits
Location in tax code: 26 U.S.C. § 613A(c)(1)

Amount saved by repealing: $12.1 billion between 2018 and 2026



4)Deductions for the depletion of oil shale deposits

Location in tax code: 26 U.S.C. § 613(b)(2)(B)

Amount saved by repealing: The U.S. Treasury would save $840 million between 2018 and 2026 by repealing the depletion deduction for all hard mineral fossil fuels, of which oil shale is one. The amount applying to oil shale alone is unknown.



5)Deductions for the costs of oil shale exploration and development

Location in tax code: 26 U.S.C. § 617

Amount saved by repealing: The U.S. Treasury would save $768 million between 2018 and 2026 by repealing this tax preference for certain mining exploration expenditures, including expenditures for oil shale. The amount applying to oil shale alone is unknown.


6) Amortization of geological and geophysical expenditures
Location in tax code: 26 U.S.C. § 167(h)

Amount saved: $1.3 billion between 2018 and 2026


7)Deductions for tertiary injectants
Location in tax code: 26 U.S.C. § 193

Amount saved by repealing: $100 million between 2018 and 2026


8)Exception to passive loss limitation for working interests in oil and natural gas properties
Location in tax code: 26 U.S.C. § 469(c)(3)

Amount saved by repealing: $310 million between 2018 and 2026


9)Marginal wells tax credit
Location in tax code: 26 U.S.C. § 45I

Amount saved by repealing: $0, unless oil and natural gas prices fall below a certain threshold
t
Yeah, Except Tesla doesn't make Electricity; they consume it. Tesla gets to deduct every bit of their expenses. They are on a level ground with their automobile manufacturers. They are making more profit than their competitors because they are charging a higher price. Most other countries have a limit on the price of the car that gets incentives.

I have no problem with removing most of the tax code to include these incentives to get domestic oil and gas exploration up so we didn't buy as much foreign oil in the 1970s.

This Federal Government lived for over 100 years on Tariffs and no income tax.
 
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RobStark

Well-Known Member
Jul 2, 2013
10,926
57,608
Los Angeles, USA
t
Yeah, Except Tesla doesn't make Electricity; they consume it. Tesla gets to deduct every bit of their expenses. They are on a level ground with their automobile manufacturers. They are making more profit than their competitors because they are charging a higher price. Most other countries have a limit on the price of the car that gets incentives.

I have no problem with removing most of the tax code to include these incentives to get domestic oil and gas exploration up so we didn't buy as much foreign oil in the 1970s.

This Federal Government lived for over 100 years on Tariffs and no income tax.

Tesla does generate electricity and they will be producing more as time goes on. Tesla Energy. Formerly Solar City. Tax incentives for Solar industry are a sliver of those provided to the Fossil Fuel industry. They have higher cost and the difference is paid for by the taxpayer. Soon enough all Tesla facilities will generate their own electricity and as well as offsite generation to supply Supercharger Network. Tesla may become the largest electric utility on the planet in 20 years.

Tesla Automotive doesn't get to deduct any more expenses than than GM or Toyota. All zero emission vehicle incentives available to Tesla customers are available to GM and Toyota customers as well.

The 19th Century Federal Government before Embassies in over 190 countries with military capabilities all over the entire planet, FBI,CIA as well as "social" spending is irrelevant to today.


Edit. When the original bill was passed to enact the $7500 Federal Credit for battery electric vehicles, including a separate provision for hydrogen fuel cells, it was estimated that all the subsidies to the oil industry amount to $12k per ICEv over the life of the car. Subsidizing oil in effect subsidizes ICEv. The Credit was originally mean to offset and equalize subsidies between ICEv and BEV. $7500 plus subsidies to the electric utilities was thought to equal ~$12k per BEV.
 
Last edited:

gowthamn

Science
Apr 14, 2016
366
251
Seattle
I agree. Congress should stop picking the Fossil Fuel industries as winners. How about we start with repealing the following 9 provisions.

1)Deductions for the costs of drilling wells
Location in tax code: 26 U.S.C. § 263(c)

Amount saved by repealing: $13.1 billion between 2018 and 2026



2)Domestic manufacturing deduction for oil and gas production

Location in tax code: 26 U.S.C. § 199

Amount saved by repealing: $10.9 billion between 2018 and 2026


3)Deductions for the depletion of oil and gas deposits
Location in tax code: 26 U.S.C. § 613A(c)(1)

Amount saved by repealing: $12.1 billion between 2018 and 2026



4)Deductions for the depletion of oil shale deposits

Location in tax code: 26 U.S.C. § 613(b)(2)(B)

Amount saved by repealing: The U.S. Treasury would save $840 million between 2018 and 2026 by repealing the depletion deduction for all hard mineral fossil fuels, of which oil shale is one. The amount applying to oil shale alone is unknown.



5)Deductions for the costs of oil shale exploration and development

Location in tax code: 26 U.S.C. § 617

Amount saved by repealing: The U.S. Treasury would save $768 million between 2018 and 2026 by repealing this tax preference for certain mining exploration expenditures, including expenditures for oil shale. The amount applying to oil shale alone is unknown.


6) Amortization of geological and geophysical expenditures
Location in tax code: 26 U.S.C. § 167(h)

Amount saved: $1.3 billion between 2018 and 2026


7)Deductions for tertiary injectants
Location in tax code: 26 U.S.C. § 193

Amount saved by repealing: $100 million between 2018 and 2026


8)Exception to passive loss limitation for working interests in oil and natural gas properties
Location in tax code: 26 U.S.C. § 469(c)(3)

Amount saved by repealing: $310 million between 2018 and 2026


9)Marginal wells tax credit
Location in tax code: 26 U.S.C. § 45I

Amount saved by repealing: $0, unless oil and natural gas prices fall below a certain threshold


There is no incentive to buy a gas car. For EV there is incentive.
 

gregd

Active Member
Dec 31, 2014
2,600
1,819
CM98
There is no incentive to buy a gas car. For EV there is incentive.
If you're picking at nits, ok. The incentive for the EV is for the car; the incentive for the gas car is the reduced cost of fuel. That fuel incentive is "baked" into the system so deep that we don't see it, but it is certainly there. Further, the EV incentive ages out, where the fuel incentive does not; that is not fair in my book. Either make the EV incentive permanent, or (better), remove or phase-out the incentives given to the petroleum industry. Arguably there were reasons to support oil exploration and development in the past, but why should we continue to pay for companies to damage our planet, when we now have viable alternatives? The time has come for a change.
 

RobStark

Well-Known Member
Jul 2, 2013
10,926
57,608
Los Angeles, USA
There is no incentive to buy a gas car. For EV there is incentive.

Subsidies for the oil industry are a subsidy for gasoline cars. Back when the electric car incentive was passed it was calculated that oil industry subsidies amounted to a $12k subsidy per gasoline car.

Without these oil subsidies, the Total Cost of Ownership for the average gasoline car would increase $12k

"Why buy an electric car when gas is so cheap?"
 
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gowthamn

Science
Apr 14, 2016
366
251
Seattle
Subsidies for the oil industry are a subsidy for gasoline cars. Back when the electric car incentive was passed it was calculated that oil industry subsidies amounted to a $12k subsidy per gasoline car.

Without these oil subsidies, the Total Cost of Ownership for the average gasoline car would increase $12k

"Why buy an electric car when gas is so cheap?"

Electricity is also subsidiced in many places in residential areas. That should also be included.
 

RobStark

Well-Known Member
Jul 2, 2013
10,926
57,608
Los Angeles, USA
Electricity is also subsidiced in many places in residential areas. That should also be included.

At the time of the passage of the EV credit subsidies to utilities was evaluated at $4500 per EV over its lifetime.

$4500 plus $7500 equals $12000 in subsidies per ICEv.

EVs are better for national energy independence, cleaner breathable air(lower healthcare cost) and lower CO2.

It shouldn't be the same.
 
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Brando

Active Member
Sep 27, 2016
3,049
2,269
Bainbridge Island, WA
Electricity is also subsidiced in many places in residential areas. That should also be included.
I guess you mean as in Nuclear Reactors?

Coal plant - especially Trump trying to bring back coal jobs.
Coal miners fight to keep Navajo plant open; SRP says only a 'unicorn' can save it

Or the Hydro Electric Dams?
Hydroelectricity - Wikipedia

or the building of our electrical system?
Electric power system - Wikipedia

Interstate Highway System - Wikipedia

Nation wide projects of almost any kind have plenty of "government" participation and regulations.
Do regulators encourage competition? or just subsides for incumbents? a constant struggle/battle.

The Internet is just one of the latest struggle/battle grounds.
 

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