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TSLA Market Action: 2018 Investor Roundtable

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I want to clarify that I’m as bullish as ever about the company’s long-term prospects, but the last couple of quarters have proven worse than management guidance, on many levels both on the revenue and expense sides, and it’s not clear if management is on top of it, so I am increasingly concerned. I believe that the recent disappointing trend will at some point reverse, and hope that it happens sooner rather than later.
 
In an extreme example, he gets $1B if It takes 10 years for market cap to reach $100B, which would likely be less than market return, even if due to market irrationality or Fed’s easy money policy, and revenue reaches $20B in ten years. This is an unfair outcome, and many possible scenarios like this one exist. This is a poorly designed comp plan.

Is that unfair? That is only $100M / year total compensation.
 
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In an extreme example, he gets $1B if It takes 10 years for market cap to reach $100B, which would likely be less than market return, even if due to market irrationality or Fed’s easy money policy, and revenue reaches $20B in ten years. This is an unfair outcome, and many possible scenarios like this one exist. This is a poorly designed comp plan.

views may vary on whether the compensation package is well designed, but, picking an extreme example (your own description) in isolation does not make things clearer. is it 'fair' that if Tesla's market cap in 2028 is one cent less than the scenario you've outlined, Elon will have worked at Tesla 10 years for $0? that seems less 'fair' to me than the scenario you described.
 
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Fwiw, I think we hit the bottom here with all the negativity. @jhm bought his shares, trolls I had blocked long ago show up when I hit show ignored posts. The signs are all there. I picked up some after the 8k came out. Let's see.
Wow, I've become a marker of the bottom. The stew of dissatisfaction, anger, and disillusionment is getting thick. These are always the best times to score a few more shares.
 
Is that unfair? That is only $100M / year total compensation.
views may vary on whether the compensation package is well designed, but, picking an extreme example (your own description) does not make things clearer. is it fair that if Tesla's market cap in 2028 is one cent less than the scenario you've outlined, Elon will have worked at Tesla 10 years for $0?

In ten years? Yea!
 
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Thanks for the reply, Words (and grr). But I have to observe, you provided ZERO evidence for your position. Other posters noted that Tesla is believed to make US deliveries disproportionately in the last month of each calendar quarter - this is widely believed to be true, and totally consistent with insideevs estimates.

Your hunch could possibly be right and you are entitled to it, but it is only a hunch, nothing more. We can not consider it a 'proven' fact without seeing evidence. Unfortunately, Tesla does not provide any. So insideevs is apparently still our best source for monthly data.
But again, we're talking here about InsideEVs estimate of Model 3 numbers, and they are only being shipped to the US at the moment, so they can't and aren't managing overseas deliveries.

And BTW, it's "ggr", my initials.

MLCC1version1.jpg
 
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phil0909, perhaps you can explain why Tesla is the only auto manufacturer that front loads international deliveries. All other auto manufactures show steady increase/decrease month to month.
I'm not Phil, but I'll try. This is a trap that many companies fall into, particularly publicly traded ones (like Tesla is, and SpaceX isn't). Back in... well I went to check but am having trouble getting to ir.tesla.com at the moment... I think it was q4 2014(? or Q1 2015?), Tesla was about to start the real hard work on Model X and were shipping internationally and Elon basically said "we have one chance to make a profit before we start spending again". So they shipped everything going to Europe early enough in the quarter to actually get there and be delivered in that quarter, and then shipped as many as possible to the East Coast, and then shipped everything else to West Coast, so that they could actually show cash flow positive. Many companies pre-book orders, or give discounts to deliver before end of quarter, and so on. The trouble is that once you've done it, it is hard to unwind, because somewhere/somehow something will look bad temporarily when you do. Elon has mentioned that before, too, that he'd like to get production running on a more even keel.
 
Wow, I've become a marker of the bottom. The stew of dissatisfaction, anger, and disillusionment is getting thick. These are always the best times to score a few more shares.

Yep. TMC is hitting some new lows. There's actually a thread in the Model 3 forum that combines several of the worst examples of FUD, pointless fighting, and astounding ignorance in one nearly useless discussion (to be fair, there are some good points made as well):

Don't cancel your M3 just yet....
 
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In ten years? Yea!
If it takes ten years for Tesla to hit a $100B market cap, we've got much bigger problems than a CEO package.

Going back to the basic idea of 50% annual revenue growth, there's no way the market cap grows that slowly with that rate of revenue growth. So revenue in 2017 was $11.8B, up 68% from prior year. Even with the M3 ramp delays, is anyone worried that Tesla won't hit at least $18B in 2018 revenue or $27B in 2019? We seem to be well on track.
 
If it takes ten years for Tesla to hit a $100B market cap, we've got much bigger problems than a CEO package.

Going back to the basic idea of 50% annual revenue growth, there's no way the market cap grows that slowly with that rate of revenue growth. So revenue in 2017 was $11.8B, up 68% from prior year. Even with the M3 ramp delays, is anyone worried that Tesla won't hit at least $18B in 2018 revenue or $27B in 2019? We seem to be well on track.

Agreed, and my estimates are even higher, but why leave it to chance given the latest list of misses? I offer two simple solutions:
  1. Put a time limit to market cap milestones; and/or
  2. Weight the number of shares awarded to higher market cap milestones - i.e. 100k shares for $100B, 200k shares for $150B, 400k shares for $200B, 800k for $250B, 1.6m shares for $300B, 3.2m shares for $350B, or a variation that matches total number of shares awarded, and so on... exponential rise... He’ll LOVE IT!!
 
perhaps you can explain why Tesla is the only auto manufacturer that front loads international deliveries. All other auto manufactures show steady increase/decrease month to month.

RobStark, I think you may be on to something.

Daniel

Virtually all major (not mid size) automakers have factories in every continent where they do business. (Australia now being the exception)

They are not shipping major amount of cars all around the world.

And they have dealer stock to buffer the ebbs and flows of demand.

Tesla is not demand constrained but production constrained.
 
Agreed, and my estimates are even higher, but why leave it to chance given the latest list of misses? I offer two simple solutions:
  1. Put a time limit to market cap milestones; and/or
  2. Weight the number of shares awarded to higher market cap milestones - i.e. 100k shares for $100B, 200k shares for $150B, 400k shares for $200B, 800k for $250B, 1.6m shares for $300B, 3.2m shares for $350B, or a variation that matches total number of shares awarded, and so on... exponential rise... He’ll LOVE IT!!
Hmm, well, the value of his shares are already exponential. The thing about milestones being linear with market cap is that it will take much longer to hit the first milestones than the final milestones. So the rate at which Elon earns his shares will accelerate exponentially.

But the key thing about this plan and how Elon rolls is that Elon is strongly inclined to focus the company for long term success even at the delay near term targets. As much as people complain about Elon missing target dates, I've never seen him sacrifice the long-term success for the sake of hitting of short-term targets. He is constantly positioning the company for long-term success, which makes critics think that he can't stay focused on near term goals. But for Musk, near term objectives only have value to the extent they position the company for long-term growth.

So for example, solving the problems with ramping up production are likely more valuable to Musk because the company is learning how to ramp quickly than merely to satisfy investors or even generate cash flow. To keep growing production 50% or more each year, Tesla needs to get really good at ramping up production because that's what they'll be doing constantly for the next ten years. They aren't aiming for flawless execution of a single ramp. They are aiming an impossibly fast ramp as a dress rehearsal for very frequent ramping. For example suppose that in 2019 Tesla builds 1M vehicles. Well, in 2020 they'll want to build at least 1.5M. Thus, they will be attempting to increase production by 500k in one year, which may include one or two product launches in that year. So naturally, Elon wants to challenge the organization to ramp up 500k in one year with the launch of the Model 3. He needs the whole organization to have that level of capability. He knows that the organization may not have that capability just yet, but he's going to be a tough coach and force it to try because that is the only way it gain that capability. By the time 2020 comes around and Elon wants to launch and build 500k pickups in year one, his team will be like, "No problem, we've got this." This is really no different than Elon crashing rockets in the quest to routinize propulsive landings. Sure, it exposed him and his team to the embarrassment of public failure, but I've got to believe that the experiences were highly motivating to his team. Elon keeps pushing the landings to the limits, even though this risks more failure. In the Falcon Heavy launch, they only stuck two out of three landings. But someday SpaceX will be sticking 100s of landings every day with absolutely no failures because many will transport humans. Elon is totally focus on achieving that level of performance in the shortest amount of time. So to get there, Musk is going to keep pressing limits and risking spectacular failure at every try. So am I worried about the M3 launch taking more than a year to hit 5k/week? Not at all, in fact, failure is the best way to train the team to perform at a much higher level. If Tesla is not failing on near-term targets, Musk is not driving hard enough to become a $1T company in ten years.
 
Hmm, well, the value of his shares are already exponential. The thing about milestones being linear with market cap is that it will take much longer to hit the first milestones than the final milestones. So the rate at which Elon earns his shares will accelerate exponentially.

But the key thing about this plan and how Elon rolls is that Elon is strongly inclined to focus the company for long term success even at the delay near term targets. As much as people complain about Elon missing target dates, I've never seen him sacrifice the long-term success for the sake of hitting of short-term targets. He is constantly positioning the company for long-term success, which makes critics think that he can't stay focused on near term goals. But for Musk, near term objectives only have value to the extent they position the company for long-term growth.

So for example, solving the problems with ramping up production are likely more valuable to Musk because the company is learning how to ramp quickly than merely to satisfy investors or even generate cash flow. To keep growing production 50% or more each year, Tesla needs to get really good at ramping up production because that's what they'll be doing constantly for the next ten years. They aren't aiming for flawless execution of a single ramp. They are aiming an impossibly fast ramp as a dress rehearsal for very frequent ramping. For example suppose that in 2019 Tesla builds 1M vehicles. Well, in 2020 they'll want to build at least 1.5M. Thus, they will be attempting to increase production by 500k in one year, which may include one or two product launches in that year. So naturally, Elon wants to challenge the organization to ramp up 500k in one year with the launch of the Model 3. He needs the whole organization to have that level of capability. He knows that the organization may not have that capability just yet, but he's going to be a tough coach and force it to try because that is the only way it gain that capability. By the time 2020 comes around and Elon wants to launch and build 500k pickups in year one, his team will be like, "No problem, we've got this." This is really no different than Elon crashing rockets in the quest to routinize propulsive landings. Sure, it exposed him and his team to the embarrassment of public failure, but I've got to believe that the experiences were highly motivating to his team. Elon keeps pushing the landings to the limits, even though this risks more failure. In the Falcon Heavy launch, they only stuck two out of three landings. But someday SpaceX will be sticking 100s of landings every day with absolutely no failures because many will transport humans. Elon is totally focus on achieving that level of performance in the shortest amount of time. So to get there, Musk is going to keep pressing limits and risking spectacular failure at every try. So am I worried about the M3 launch taking more than a year to hit 5k/week? Not at all, in fact, failure is the best way to train the team to perform at a much higher level. If Tesla is not failing on near-term targets, Musk is not driving hard enough to become a $1T company in ten years.
Wow!
 
But again, we're talking here about InsideEVs estimate of Model 3 numbers, and they are only being shipped to the US at the moment, so they can't and aren't managing overseas deliveries.

And BTW, it's "ggr", my initials.

View attachment 279498

When you have to step in as moderator, I always see you point out the problem and close with a grrr. It always takes me a second for my eyes to adjust to realize you're not growling.
 
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The COO at SpaceX is exceptional. If such a person is found for Tesla, maybe a COO position will be created. At the moment that positions duties are distributed across the other positions. It is well known that increasing a teams size leads to inefficiency ... the time taken to keep everyone on the same page increases. We have no evidence a COO would improve things and may well disrupt lines of communication and make things worse.

I can not prove a COO would improve or make things worse as we have never had a Tesla COO.. My one person data point is that as you say, SpaceX has an excellent one. Maybe another person exists that would be an excellent COO at Tesla. Obviously Elon has shown in at least one of his businesses the COO experiment is working.

I am also not sure that it is well known that increasing a team size by *one* will lead to more inefficiency.
 
Virtually all major (not mid size) automakers have factories in every continent where they do business. (Australia now being the exception)
They are not shipping major amount of cars all around the world.
And they have dealer stock to buffer the ebbs and flows of demand.
Tesla is not demand constrained but production constrained.
RobStark, every single EV by all other automakers listed on InsideEVs would only produce that vehicle in one factory for their entire World market and shipping from there. At 1400 units for the GM Bolt last month, there is no way GM is making these in multiple locations, they are losing $8000 per unit as it is.
 
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