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So basically you’re saying Tesla needs to be less transparent about pricing and behave more like other OEMs.

Unfortunately, he’s right. With both the 420 tweet & the free Performance package, Elon was doing the right thing & being transparent about it. The problem is, our society punishes him/them/us for that.

Wall Street and then the SEC punished him for letting retail investors know his thoughts before he began negotiations with major investors. Now owners are mad he was transparent about the car getting cheaper over time.

I have no problem with Elon & Tesla remaining transparent because I understood how they were before I invested. I also have no problem if they become less transparent in the future in order to avoid these kerfuffles. I think @neroden stated a very useful approach they could take.

The fault is not in our stars, but in ourselves.
 
Nope. Not only does unlimited supercharging encourage locals to use the superchargers, it also encourages travelers to stay at superchargers longer than they would have to to reach their destination. The delta is dramatic, let's say from 10-20 minutes vs 1.5 hours. You can tell from teslafi data that most people are charging to 100%.

Cue story about San Diego, where as an out of state traveler, I had to charge at 3am to get enough juice to get me to El Centro the next morning. Walking by there from the hotel, it sure looked like all locals.
 
I doubt Fred will receive any more insider information.

I should start a blog so I can get verified and gather followers so I can spam CEOs when my personal experience is not what I want and leverage that popularity to get what I want.
This is exactly why alot of us dislike Petty, pissy Fred which a very few on this board still didn’t get. In any case I think we discussed Fred more than he deserves, time for next topic. Here’s one:
Introducing Navigate on Autopilot

NOA looks pretty good. I can see being helpful soon with auto mad max mode while being late for work...this will help sell more EAP and FSD.
 
Max charge of 80% is a really bad idea. There are various sizes of batteries / range in the cars. I've had to sit and wait for 100% charge in my 85 to make a jump. One time, I still didn't have enough range and ended up having to find a Level 2 on the way to the next supercharger.
Tesla should optimize charging based on your destination charging to 80%, unless need more
 
*** WEEKEND OFF-TOPIC ***

Hi Folks,

Just watched the new Ford "We Build the Future" commercial on local cable TV. So uh, they had a Mustang and a Raptor pickup truck. That's the future of uh, 2008. And they had the Apollo moon landing. I watched that live on TV in school. That's reverse time travel. Real Einsteinium. These guys are so stuffed, and don't know even it... <smdh>

Instead, this afternoon I bought the future of 2002, a Toyota Echo with 235K km on it, for $1. Needs a little work, which I can happily do myself (byproduct of a wasted youth). It'll hold me over until my next car, which will be a Tesla or a bus pass. But hey, my city is buying a fleet of Proterra Electric busses which will replace all the old diesels, so that's inEVitable right?

Cheers, and enjoy your weekend!
 
Just want to chime in about the $5,000 package:

1. Fred at electrek thinks Tesla basically cheated early buyers, as quoted below:
it looks like Tesla solely created that $5,000 package to upcharge early buyers knowing that there will be plenty of demand for the vehicle at the launch due to the reservation holders waiting for the performance version.

and
I have been waiting over 2 years for the car and I love it, but now I feel cheated by Tesla because I could have saved $5,000 by waiting two more months to get it and I wouldn’t have had to loan Tesla $1,000 interest-free for 2 years.

This is categorically false and malicious.

1.1 The price structure of $5,000 package and free supercharge for lifetime was what Tesla could reasonably provide during the ramping up period a.k.a. "production hell" with decent margin and keep the spice flow so to speak.

1.2 I remotely remember that even Andrej Karpathy had to help on the floor/assembly line. This is very costly. There must have been numerous other factors contributing higher cost to make the same kind of cars.

1.3 Tesla literally is improving the whole production process and therefore lowering manufacturing cost day and night and the cars produced now actually cost less, with weekly production of 5,000 Model 3 and continuous ramping up while keeping capex almost flat.

1.4 As Model 3s are produced with less cost for same configuration and consequently, Tesla is able to transfer partial savings new buyers, through reduing price directly AND adjustment of pricing structure, i.e. making the upgrade package free while un-freeing the lifetime supercharge. This essentially is asking buyers pay less upfront and spend more later. This swap of $5,000 package and supercharging mostly likely results costing majority of new buyers less eventually, but it is definitely not for everyone. Once above certain level of supercharging usage, new buyers will pay more. Or in that scenario, $5,000 paying early buyers (someone like Fred) come out better off.

The focal point is, I see no evidence "Tesla solely created that $5,000 package to upcharge early buyers." Instead, Telsa passes over their savings as quick as possible. Remember, if North American demand is not up to its production capability, Tesla could very well start shipping Model 3 to the rest of the world, while keep charging that $5,000. This price change is at least about passing over savings as about pulling demand leverage.

To wrap it up, this statement
That change is therefore penalizing early buyers who have been long-time reservation holders.
is not just bitching, it is insidious.

1.5 Even right now, Tesla has difficulty to make SR $35,000 Model 3 with decent margin, it can only be achieved through continuously increasing production AND simultaneously improving production process in every possible way.

Should future SR $35,000 Model 3 buyers demand "free" $5,000 upgrade package as everybody before was able to do so? I don't think so. OTOH, If Tesla is able to reduce the cost so dramatically and able to include that as standard, then I'm happy for all new buyers.

2. IMO, electrek is drifting steadily towards click-baiting centric websites like Business Insider.

Overall, electric publishes short, quick, and shallow posts, with as many graphics/photos/videos as possible, almost to the limit of nauseating your dear eyes. Posts, particularly posts from Fred, are generated to maximize clicks - just compare it with CleanTechnica.

If I remember correctly, Fred once posted an article just showing how many clicks his website gets overtime. That is probably the most essential for how he (and the business owner) runs the website right now.

It's not for me here to argue against/for the merit/evil of click baiting. But overall with its click-baiting centric approach, it has less and less value - particularly for active TMS members. Often a large portion of posts are just second hand info directly from TMC.

For me personally, I visit less and less.

3. This post of Fred bitching about $5,000 upgrade going "free" and accusing Tesla cheating is totally personal and selfish. He made it very clear he's angry, hurt, and further, accusing Tesla cheated him and other early buyers. I totally understand the angry and hurt part, but go straightforward declaring Tesla cheating? That went way overboard. And well, I won’t be surprised “someone” will pick the cheating part up and put it front and central next Monday, if not already.

Quite a few comments on electrek mentioned about the free Roadster he gets and he defends himself vehemently that he totally deserves it. I have no problem with that. But from his reaction, I can reasonably deduce that if Tesla gave him 10 instead of 1 free Roadster, he would most likely consider himself still and totally deserving it. What an entitled ass! He basically believes that he has made so much contribution to Tesla, he probably even fancies himself be appointed to be next Tesla board member or even chair (I admit this sounds personal. OK I agree). I also remembered Fred once bitched about Tesla gave him too little time test driving Model 3 performance.

This entitlement is a very dangerous thing to have and that's why we have Darth Vader. Hopefully Elon has sensed something and I would love to see Elon "Dana Hull"s him from now on Twitter, etc.

Remember that farting unicorn drama? Fred has his unicorn moment and it's time for him to go backstage.

tl;dr
Elon and Tesla:
82766200-winking-smile.jpg


Fred/Electrek:
ThumbsDownEmoji.jpg
 
forget fred and electrek
that’s not why elon changed course...because of one person.

it’s about the other 1000 people complaining about it. it’s about doing the right thing by your customers, and keeping them loyal.
Can you imagine how bad it would have looked if he had told the guy to pound sand....now that would have been a PR nightmare.
 
software queue management would fix a bunch of that.

??? How? If A and B are on a 135kW cabinets and both cars are >80% SOC the amount of energy they can take is limited.

Putting a few HPWCs at SCs just makes sense. Kettleman has a couple. Not only are bays not wasted on people needing 100% for some reason but anyone that's not in a rush and just wants a few kWh can use them too.

At the VERY minimum SCs at hotels should have HPWCs installed also...
 
Just want to chime in about the $5,000 package:

1. Fred at electrek thinks Tesla basically cheated early buyers, as quoted below:


and


This is categorically false and malicious.

1.1 The price structure of $5,000 package and free supercharge for lifetime was what Tesla could reasonably provide during the ramping up period a.k.a. "production hell" with decent margin and keep the spice flow so to speak.

1.2 I remotely remember that even Andrej Karpathy had to help on the floor/assembly line. This is very costly. There must have been numerous other factors contributing higher cost to make the same kind of cars.

1.3 Tesla literally is improving the whole production process and therefore lowering manufacturing cost day and night and the cars produced now actually cost less, with weekly production of 5,000 Model 3 and continuous ramping up while keeping capex almost flat.

1.4 As Model 3s are produced with less cost for same configuration and consequently, Tesla is able to transfer partial savings new buyers, through reduing price directly AND adjustment of pricing structure, i.e. making the upgrade package free while un-freeing the lifetime supercharge. This essentially is asking buyers pay less upfront and spend more later. This swap of $5,000 package and supercharging mostly likely results costing majority of new buyers less eventually, but it is definitely not for everyone. Once above certain level of supercharging usage, new buyers will pay more. Or in that scenario, $5,000 paying early buyers (someone like Fred) come out better off.

The focal point is, I see no evidence "Tesla solely created that $5,000 package to upcharge early buyers." Instead, Telsa passes over their savings as quick as possible. Remember, if North American demand is not up to its production capability, Tesla could very well start shipping Model 3 to the rest of the world, while keep charging that $5,000. This price change is at least about passing over savings as about pulling demand leverage.

To wrap it up, this statement

is not just bitching, it is insidious.

1.5 Even right now, Tesla has difficulty to make SR $35,000 Model 3 with decent margin, it can only be achieved through continuously increasing production AND simultaneously improving production process in every possible way.

Should future SR $35,000 Model 3 buyers demand "free" $5,000 upgrade package as everybody before was able to do so? I don't think so. OTOH, If Tesla is able to reduce the cost so dramatically and able to include that as standard, then I'm happy for all new buyers.

2. IMO, electrek is drifting steadily towards click-baiting centric websites like Business Insider.

Overall, electric publishes short, quick, and shallow posts, with as many graphics/photos/videos as possible, almost to the limit of nauseating your dear eyes. Posts, particularly posts from Fred, are generated to maximize clicks - just compare it with CleanTechnica.

If I remember correctly, Fred once posted an article just showing how many clicks his website gets overtime. That is probably the most essential for how he (and the business owner) runs the website right now.

It's not for me here to argue against/for the merit/evil of click baiting. But overall with its click-baiting centric approach, it has less and less value - particularly for active TMS members. Often a large portion of posts are just second hand info directly from TMC.

For me personally, I visit less and less.

3. This post of Fred bitching about $5,000 upgrade going "free" and accusing Tesla cheating is totally personal and selfish. He made it very clear he's angry, hurt, and further, accusing Tesla cheated him and other early buyers. I totally understand the angry and hurt part, but go straightforward declaring Tesla cheating? That went way overboard. And well, I won’t be surprised “someone” will pick the cheating part up and put it front and central next Monday, if not already.

Quite a few comments on electrek mentioned about the free Roadster he gets and he defends himself vehemently that he totally deserves it. I have no problem with that. But from his reaction, I can reasonably deduce that if Tesla gave him 10 instead of 1 free Roadster, he would most likely consider himself still and totally deserving it. What an entitled ass! He basically believes that he has made so much contribution to Tesla, he probably even fancies himself be appointed to be next Tesla board member or even chair (I admit this sounds personal. OK I agree). I also remembered Fred once bitched about Tesla gave him too little time test driving Model 3 performance.

This entitlement is a very dangerous thing to have and that's why we have Darth Vader. Hopefully Elon has sensed something and I would love to see Elon "Dana Hull"s him from now on Twitter, etc.

Remember that farting unicorn drama? Fred has his unicorn moment and it's time for him to go backstage.

tl;dr
Elon and Tesla:
View attachment 347567

Fred/Electrek:
View attachment 347568

Yeah I read that live... If people think this is just a small back and forth with Fred, they are wrong. It was really dirty.
 
That's some serious hyperbole in the context of journalism. If you look at @ZachShahan's Pravduh metrics you'll find mainstream journalists who wrote dozens of articles about Tesla, with negative headlines 100% of the time. There are others who never wrote a single positive article about Tesla.

In that context Fred's 90% factual/positive, 5% trollish and 5% borderline-false content is Mother Theresa quality in comparison. Yes, CleanTechnica and Teslarati is even better, but we as a community would be very big fools to not welcome even slightly flawed friends like Fred when they do good stuff.

And yes, this means that despite of what Andrew Left has done in the past, he redeemed a large chunk of that with his high profile defection last week - that was hugely demoralizing to the shorts.

Flawed friends are not enemies, Tesla has enough enemies already.

No one is perfect. I’m well aware of that and I’m also often the first to say I have flaws. But it’s what people do when things are “not going their way” that really matters. Fred could have handled that much better.

Left is driven to make money. I believe he will flip back at the first sign of possibly making more money with shorting.
 
Drop white seats by 500.. small complaints.
Drop P price by 1000.. more complaints but still small.

Drop P by 5000 - the world has ended.

Your argument is valid but we are discussing perception of reality vs actual reality.

I’m more favorable to the TSLA side but TSLA cannot survive without the owners.

Tesla can survive without whiners like Fred. If he was really all for EV adoption he’d stop whining.
I decided to not go to Fred's site anymore. There are several other sites I can read instead. What Fred did is a small thing but reflects character.

I don’t mind people using expletives, but when your website is made popular because of tesla and you get a new roadster because of tesla, stop being such a whiner while using expletives. Tesla MADE you, show some gratitude.
 
Can you imagine how bad it would have looked if he had told the guy to pound sand....now that would have been a PR nightmare.

i do think fred could use some time in the ‘snippiness’ section, but i’m glad elon handled it that way he did.

again, the backlash would have occurred without fred or electrek.

alas, i think it best to keep electrek and fred at a distance after this. not a good look.
 
Tesla can survive without whiners like Fred. If he was really all for EV adoption he’d stop whining.


I don’t mind people using expletives, but when your website is made popular because of tesla and you get a new roadster because of tesla, stop being such a whiner while using expletives. Tesla MADE you, show some gratitude.

It's not just Fred. He's not the only unhappy owner. When it comes to "pricing" these are the stakeholders:

-TSLA shareholders
-New to Tesla ownership
-Old to Tesla ownership
-Rich people with Tesla's
-Less rich people Tesla's
-People with legitimate beefs
-People who are whiney bitches
-People happy for others when price is lower (almost no one is here)
-Those indifferent for others when price is lower (I fall here, as long as its a positive overall Tesla move)
-Those resentful of others when price is lower (most people are here)

I really really wish investors would understand owners more and owners would understand investors more.

Usually it's the owners I have the most problem with. No TSLA, means no warranty and no one to maintain the supercharger network.

You can't make everyone happy all the time, but there was lots of room and ways on how things could have been handled regarding free PUP bundling.
 
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The resistance levels can work this way.

People look at these "thumb rules" and put buy & sell limits. You see people on this thread doing it, for eg. If enough people do it, it actually builds some automatic levels. Even large investment firms / wealthy investors may decide on this strategy. Buy at $x and sell at $y. That is configured in the trading software - and act as real resistance levels, esp when the volume is low. On big news, these levels get blown away because of high volumes and/or enough people move the limits.

In the last 3 months with so many, many bad news items - SP still didn't breach the $250 level, for eg.

But resistance levels don’t exist. That’s the whole point of the academic research I cited.
 
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