Drat. So that's where it was before the update, so no improvement in acceleration...at least not while already at speed.
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[updated with *] P85D 691HP should have an asterisk * next to it.. "Up to 691HP"
- Thread starter krisg81
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- Driving Dynamics Model S
Drat. So that's where it was before the update, so no improvement in acceleration...at least not while already at speed.
I look forward to hearing latest 6.2 firmware dragstrip performance for 85, P85, 85D, and P85D. Also 70D when they reach customers.
The P is marketed as having suspension and handling differences also. Another thread asked about what those were exactly.
thegruf
Active Member
@krisg81 - think somebody else had the same problem. If you start off with high enough SoC then you have to drive sooo many miles to burn it off!
The top off charging is slow for good reason to protect the cells chemistry, a technical issue not a Tesla specific issue.
There is however one other important difference between the P85D and the S85D - that is the P85D is considrably rear biased, where the S85D cant "send" the torque backwards as Quattro's do to great effect but is strictly 50:50.
But how much to pay for that?
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was anything ever established re this?
The top off charging is slow for good reason to protect the cells chemistry, a technical issue not a Tesla specific issue.
There is however one other important difference between the P85D and the S85D - that is the P85D is considrably rear biased, where the S85D cant "send" the torque backwards as Quattro's do to great effect but is strictly 50:50.
But how much to pay for that?
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was anything ever established re this?
Exactly- how much is the premium for better 0-60 speeds (ONLY) vs the S85? I guess thats up to the buyer. I just thought I was getting a true 691HP vehicle, one that had more horsepower than the non-performance model sold for much less of a premium.
Am I happy with the P85D thus far? Of course. Now that I have spent a lot of time with it, I have decided the 85D would have been the better all around package and bang for the buck.
NOW- if Elon actually releases an update that enables a LUDICROUS speed option for 2.8s 0-60 runs, I stand corrected and I'll change my mind. If the car is enabled for that much 0-60 power, i assume power all across the board will improve and i'll be a happy camper.
Reading through his tweets to those celebrities he says "2.8s would be great, maybe the Model S can get there." Note he says "The Model S" and not "The P85D". Something tells me the 2.8s time will be with the bigger battery version of the P car... the P100D or P105D. This guy is cranking out new models and obsoleting/discontinuing them all the time. First discontinuation was the P85, now its the S60. I will be pissed if the P85D is axed this short in its lifetime.
With improved 0-60 times, that means the overall power to the inverters would be that much better- increasing power across the board, including 60-80. It just seems Tesla likes the 0-60 times as their primary way of marketing performance.
515kW would be 1300+ amps from a fully charged battery. I would never run 1300A through the wiring I saw under the rear seat during my seat swap. It doesn't even look like it's as large as 4/0 gauge... and 4/0 is rated for ~260A (off top of my head).
Engineering calcs could allow more for short bursts, but for reference, and again off thr top of my head, 3400A is enough to melt and weld 4/0 wire in 10 seconds... and we'd be 1/3rd there at 515kW... lol
On a side note, if we're not getting 691 HP (max power) then it would stand to reason that neither motor is being run at peak output... which is interesting.
*shrugs*
Engineering calcs could allow more for short bursts, but for reference, and again off thr top of my head, 3400A is enough to melt and weld 4/0 wire in 10 seconds... and we'd be 1/3rd there at 515kW... lol
On a side note, if we're not getting 691 HP (max power) then it would stand to reason that neither motor is being run at peak output... which is interesting.
*shrugs*
This is a great example of why I created this thread, and why I suggested an asterisk * when Tesla advertises power. My main gripe is Tesla's method in which they advertise their power, and that they should be more transparent when marketing the car. Example:
Notice the 70D says "514 Motor HP", yet it also states 329HP. I don't understand this, are they saying there is a drivetrain loss of -35.99% to the wheels.. ?
The S85 says 380 Motor HP, then 362 HP. That's only a -4.73% loss.
Then theres the 85D, with the same "514 Motor HP" but this one puts out 422 HP, a loss of -17.89%
The cherry on top is the P85D that states 691 Motor HP ... but NO total HP like the other models. Well, what is it Tesla? Is it a loss of -35.99%, -4.73%, or -17.89%? Why are they not stating it here? (I grabbed this graphic from another post who pulled it from the Tesla ordering studio on the international Tesla page apparently)
I just don't get their marketing efforts here, and why they omitted the actual HP output of the P85D, unlike the other models in the fleet.
Notice the 70D says "514 Motor HP", yet it also states 329HP. I don't understand this, are they saying there is a drivetrain loss of -35.99% to the wheels.. ?
The S85 says 380 Motor HP, then 362 HP. That's only a -4.73% loss.
Then theres the 85D, with the same "514 Motor HP" but this one puts out 422 HP, a loss of -17.89%
The cherry on top is the P85D that states 691 Motor HP ... but NO total HP like the other models. Well, what is it Tesla? Is it a loss of -35.99%, -4.73%, or -17.89%? Why are they not stating it here? (I grabbed this graphic from another post who pulled it from the Tesla ordering studio on the international Tesla page apparently)
I just don't get their marketing efforts here, and why they omitted the actual HP output of the P85D, unlike the other models in the fleet.
Well, I'm not sure it can be categorized as loss. They are battery output and inverter limited, yes, and so the motors can't run at their full potential. But that isn't loss, which implies inefficiency (going to heat or noise or something). As shown with the 85D update this morning, the cars are capable of changing via FW as well. I would agree that stating the theoretical max power of the motor is silly. It's like saying a 1.8L 4-cylinder can do 300HP, theoretically, as long as you add a turbocharger (not included).
Nope. Not necessarily. As the battery decreases in charge, the acceleration UP to peak KW goes down but it still reaches the same peak KW, it just gets there slower.
It's possible to increase 0-60 without increasing peak KW by unleashing the power sooner. It takes nearly a second from 0 at WOT to get full output. If they decrease this time 0-60 will improve but passing speed not as much.
It's possible to increase 0-60 without increasing peak KW by unleashing the power sooner. It takes nearly a second from 0 at WOT to get full output. If they decrease this time 0-60 will improve but passing speed not as much.
Nope, they advertise motor hp, not actual SAE hp. I thought that's what I was buying but realized after driving around at highway speeds that it was nowhere near the power that was claimed. Drag Times only got just over 400 whp out of the PD.
It appears to be about the same as the P85 but the AWD gives it enough traction to get a much faster launch hence the much faster trap time without the trap speed much faster.
It appears to be about the same as the P85 but the AWD gives it enough traction to get a much faster launch hence the much faster trap time without the trap speed much faster.
Again, the dragtimes number is from an incompatible dyno. (I should make a textexpander macro for this)
thegruf
Active Member
^ Where is this?
The UK site shows hp for the 70+85 and motor power for the P85D.
It does not show this 257hp motor.
I thought Tesla only had 470hp and 221hp motors (as used in the P85D), now a 257hp motor is stated - is this a new motor?
I think my wife sums it up the best. She said "The car feels just like the P85 but without the tires spinning when you floor it". Its true, it feels like the P85 has all wheel drive, but the same power.
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Directly from the Tesla Motors website here: http://www.teslamotors.com/en_GB/models?hc_location=ufi#battery-options
I wonder why they don't use the 257 front motor from the 70D and 85D in the P85D? That would put total HP at 727HP then.
I know some people were claiming a number of 720 or 730HP on their origination certificate? Anyone recall what that number was?? If it was 727HP, then the plot thickens. Maybe the inverter update draws more power to the front motor then..
thegruf
Active Member
thanks - I had been looking at the Order pages, the additional info is not shown there.
So is the 257hp motor new?
So is the 257hp motor new?
Yep, you are right! That's a lot of people getting hit with depreciation, unexpectedly. It would make me nervous ordering a car today, expecting delivery in 6-8 weeks- just to find out the day after you get your car it has been discontinued by the manufacturer and replaced by a much better one. I can expect that with a $1000 laptop or $500 phone, but a ~$100K car? Ridiculous. S60 owners must be livid about the S70D.
Terminology question:
Do you mean quicker (improved acceleration) or faster (higher top speed)? Or do you mean exit speed from 1/4 mile?
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I take it you've never bought a Sony VAIO laptop? They obsolete things faster than you can refresh the web page.
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I think it's worthy of a separate thread but I think I have the beginning of a solution for this problem....
Brief synopsis:
When a configuration is near discontinuation (meaning a press event or web page ninja work is coming soon), hold production of that configuration. By that I mean the current delivery pattern tends to favor higher end models in the production line (meaning if you order a P85D today you will likely get it before someone ordering an 70D). I think they could do something similar. The tricky part is that if you start "advertising" that delay in the configurator, the hawks on TMC will notice the pattern and start raising alarms which triggers speculation and drama. So perhaps you don't show it in the configurator but the moment the "configuration shuffle" goes public, you start calling up the holders of the orders that were part of "held production" and giving them a few days (>1, <7) to decide if they want to move forward with the current configuration and pricing of the order or make an adjustment. If the latter, then you put them at highest priority in the queue (even above the top specced vehicles) and get them delivered ASAP. If they decide to reconfigure, then the new pricing is in effect and the clock moves on their expected delivery date. I think Tesla is already doing some of this, but the overall tone I get from TMC is that they still have plenty of room for improvement.
It's a challenging problem to innovate in the tech, "marketize" the packaging/options for profit and stock reasons, keep the production line rolling steady, and obtain+retain happy customers.
The leasing Happiness Guarantee helps for those that lease (somewhat) but for non-lease there isn't the same safety net.
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