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[updated with *] P85D 691HP should have an asterisk * next to it.. "Up to 691HP"
- Thread starter krisg81
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- Driving Dynamics Model S
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I guess enough people nagged them about this that they listened. People will still naturally want to add the numbers but that's their problem not Tesla's.
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
End of thread? Their problem, not Tesla's?
How about all of us that bought P85Ds marketed as having 691hp? I'm not particularly worked up over this, but to imply that changing the website now is a complete and total solution for this seems to me to be a naive view. It doesn't take into account in any way those who already purchased the car and had a reasonable expectation of receiving a car capable of achieving 691hp.
The closing statement for the OP says:
Tesla has gone further by removing the "691HP" phrasing from the site entirely. As such, the original topic has been addressed.
Now, if you'd like to go chasing after stuff that Tesla used to advertise but hasn't delivered, you'll have to get in line behind things like "vehicle is a hotspot", "vehicle has 4 USB ports", "all vehicles in the fleet will get 120 kW supercharging", "sunshade will be offered for the panoramic roof", etc. It's a long list and I've already forgotten a lot of it.
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
All of those things are a pretty far cry from a $100,000-plus sports car delivering approximately 20%* less hp than it was advertised as having.
*I basically pulled that number out of my backside. I think it's somewhere in the ballpark.
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And here we disagree, significantly. But I'm quite confident we won't solve it in this thread.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
It was advertised as 691 *motor* hp. And that number appears to be true. And although maybe there are those still concerned about the exact combined hp, I believe a large majority focused on the "insane" mode acceleration and the actual performance numbers promised at launch: 0-60 3.2, 1/4 mile 11.8, 155mph top speed (pending update at the time). Those are the things the driver can actually experience and Tesla delivered.
For the whp, so far there appears to be no dyno in existence that is able to get the exact number.
I am admittedly disappointed that the car does not appear to deliver the advertised 691 HP based on even their own dash power readouts. Even if it hit 480kW (which it doesn't) and that was 100% efficiency (which it isn't) that's still 643 HP, which is less than 691 HP.
Don't get me wrong, the car is awesome... but it's not 691 HP and Tesla should make right on this one way or another.
I seem to be more and more disappointed with Tesla on things like this lately and quite frankly it's making me question my related purchase and investment decisions a bit. While I like the car, it's definitely got me to where I will think twice about Tesla whenever my next vehicle purchase comes up, and this is unfortunate.
Examples:
Eventually if they don't make good on at least some of these promises one way or another, and soon, I'm going to have the time to take and start to call them out on it. Start at the bottom, work my way up, and if no acceptable answers still I'll have to proceed from there.... and given the facts that probably won't end well for them.
Don't get me wrong, the car is awesome... but it's not 691 HP and Tesla should make right on this one way or another.
I seem to be more and more disappointed with Tesla on things like this lately and quite frankly it's making me question my related purchase and investment decisions a bit. While I like the car, it's definitely got me to where I will think twice about Tesla whenever my next vehicle purchase comes up, and this is unfortunate.
Examples:
- AWD P85D will be more efficient than its RWD counterpart = months after delivery an update makes the P85D *almost* as efficient on the highway as a P85/85
- 691 HP = ~530 HP (Highest HP number I've gotten from my PBox yet)
- In October, "Autopilot will be available in several months" = seven months later (which is > several by any reasonable definition) and seven months after the demonstration, still waiting on the paid-up-front feature
Eventually if they don't make good on at least some of these promises one way or another, and soon, I'm going to have the time to take and start to call them out on it. Start at the bottom, work my way up, and if no acceptable answers still I'll have to proceed from there.... and given the facts that probably won't end well for them.
Definition of "several" Several | Definition of several by Merriam-Webster
: more than two but not very many
Elon's use of the word "several" remains correct even after 7 months.
: more than two but not very many
Elon's use of the word "several" remains correct even after 7 months.
I figured someone would response with the dictionary definition of several. "Not very many" is completely open to interpretation, and my interpretation is that has been more than or approaching being more than "not very many". Agreed that it is ambiguous, but as I said in my post (in an effort to avoid your post entirely) "by any reasonable definition." If there is no autopilot by October, a full year, would it still be reasonable to use the term "several months?" Next May? Next summer? At what point is the line drawn.
And this was wording on the order page, not Elon's wording AFAIK.
I more or less agree with everything you stated and more or less feel the same way.
Having said that, a couple of things come to mind when pondering these issues...
Like you said, in spite of this, still a fantastic car and nothing else out there really is comparable in my view. Don't get me wrong, there are other great cars out there they just aren't a Tesla. I own my Model S (and specifically, P85D) for the power, handling and cutting edge technology - I would have no philosophical problems going back to an ICE should Tesla fumble in a major way.
I have neither the time nor desire to pursue any "remedy" with Tesla should these issues end up bothering me to the point of unacceptable - I will simply part ways with Model S and move on to something else. I'll speak with my feet and my $$$.
Not sure where you get your information from, but it's incorrect. The P85D was advertised with a higher range than the P85/85 at the time I placed my order.
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
I think that there is no reasonable, rational way to argue that "several months" could be expected to be interpreted as "more than a year." So while I personally agree that "several months" has already been exceeded, I would say the line is drawn with absolute certainty at the one year point.
So someone at their commercial department did a mistake. Elon said what I wrote..
in Norway the information was correct when I ordered the same day.
They made the mistake over the course of multiple months then because the number didn't change to be lower than the P85/85 until it was changed to 253 miles EPA.
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Just to make sure I wasn't crazy, I went back and watched and Elon made no distinction at the D event either.
Tesla Unveils Dual Motor and Autopilot - YouTube
Edit: Just to triple check I wasn't crazy, here is a transcript I typed up about the D unveiling from the beginning up until the autopilot portion.
"The D stands for dual motor. Let's bring up the slide. There you can see you've got a motor in the front and a motor in the back... hence the dual nature of it. But you know what would be greater than seeing a slide is to show you the actual car so let's release the titan. Here we have the chassis and the drive train of the dual motor Model S. We obviously have the front drive unit, the rear drive unit, but the thing that makes this unique and special... better than AWD in the past is because you can dynamically shift the power from front to rear at the millisecond level. So you can very quickly adjust torque mor ethan is possible with a mechanically linked system. All AWD systems out there are just mechanically linked with a shaft. So it's the equivalent of being analog where as this is a digital system. With a system like this it's inherently able to achieve better road holding than an mechanically linked system that's just there with a single engine. And we're able to actually improve almost everything about the car. It's a rare case that you're able to do something like that. The acceleration gets a little faster, the top speed is higher, and something I think for the first time ever the range... the efficiency actually increases. As you probably know with other... with all AWD systems out there you get less mileage, it's less efficient to have an AWD system. But in the case of the Model S, because we're able to have two drive units where we can shift the power from front to rear and constantly be at the optimal efficiency point for each motor we're actually able overcome the penalty of the increased mass of the motor. Any given motor/engine has a power vs efficiency curve and the default behavior of the car... the first priority of course will be traction control, road holding, and then the second will be efficiency and as soon as you punch the accelerator it'll just go to max power... efficiency is obviously less of a concern in that situation. Literally everything improves about the car with dual motor. There's no sort of technical draw back in this case. Also, in the highest power version, the P85D, we've actually retained the larger rear motor and added the medium sized motor to the front which basically gives the car about half a gain as much power. The P85's pretty good, you know on the power front as probably a bunch of you have those cars. This car is nuts. It's like taking off from a carrier deck, it's just bananas. Having your own personal roller coaster that you just use at any time. It's really mind boggling. In fact the target that we had for performance was to try to meet the performance... the acceleration of one of the greatest super cars of all time which is the McLaren F1. So we're able to actually achieve a 3.2 second 0-60. Yeah, its mad. OK. In fact just you know we're going to have an option in the options selection you'll be able to choose three settings, which is Normal Sport and Insane. It will actually say Insane. It's true. It's pretty exciting. We're really proud of what our engineering team has been able to accomplish here. It took a lot of effort, and I think we have a technical solution we can be really proud of, and it's also one that can continue to improve over time. We'll roll out the initial cars with dual motor, but then we'll keep updating the software and firmware and improving for instance the torque vectoring and the road holding under various circumstances. It'll keep improving via nuances over time." -Elon Musk, Tesla D Event
Definitely no distinction, with regard to efficiency improvement, between the P85D and 85D. It's worth pointing out that the car he's pointing to while saying all of this is the P85D chassis with the larger rear motor.
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I'm glad I and every body in Norway understud what he meant. (That's actually not quite true.. I remember one guy asked about this. But we just showed him the video).
if people didn't watch the unveiling, I can understand why they feel the way they do. But a normal person understand that 2 new smaller engine's is more effective than a big old one and a small...
if people didn't watch the unveiling, I can understand why they feel the way they do. But a normal person understand that 2 new smaller engine's is more effective than a big old one and a small...
See my edit above where I typed a full transcript of the unveiling, linked to the video, and above that linked to an image from Tesla's order page... all of the say increased efficiency of the P85D and 85D vs single motor counterparts.
There is nothing to argue here because you are just plain wrong if you say Tesla limited the efficiency improvement claims to only the 85D.
(This is slightly OT it seems, and perhaps these recent posts here should be moved to my thread on efficiency testing? *shrugs*)
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