[updated with *] P85D 691HP should have an asterisk * next to it.. "Up to 691HP"

[krisg81]

Tesla guarantees the battery pack and thus limits power. No duh. Does anyone else guarantee their engine for non street use? Tesla is cautious for good reason.

Ok- trying to understand your logic. You think Tesla purposely limits battery power to safeguard their warranty? Well- then you can't advertise 691HP then limit the power to protect your warranty. If Chevrolet advertises the 2015 Corvette Stingray that has an engine that is SAE certified at 460HP, then that engine must put that power down. If it is certified and then GM programs a safety feature to limit power when the gas tank goes below 50% full in order to protect their warranty, I would say some lawyers would be licking their lips.

The topic is the battery and its insane mode quickly reducing power shortly after a full charge. Protection or not, Tesla needs to be transparent in the way power is rated and advertised because in its current state, the P85D is not an actual 691HP vehicle and even then, does not operate at full power for more than half of its rated range.

We can argue the technicals on "why" its happening but thats not truly the point- Tesla needs to address this and make it clear to the consumer about the power limitations of the hardware in the vehicle. Honestly, had I known this and had a proper test of the P85D, I wouldn't have seen such a value to spend much more money on a P85D that is only faster than my former P85 for a few miles of the battery charge.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I'd like to repeat the point that so far has been ignored, that with the P85D launch, Tesla changed all their advertised hp numbers into "motor power" numbers. This is not the number the car can put out, but only the motor itself (it ignores limitations in the inverters, battery, cooling, etc).

The 60kWh and 85kWh now say "380 hp motor power". Nothing in terms of performance numbers changed from the previous 302hp 60kWh and 362hp 85kWh, so this is purely a marketing change.
In the same regard, the P85D is advertised as "691 hp motor power, 221 hp front, 470 hp rear".
http://my.teslamotors.com/models/design
http://www.greencarreports.com/news...ower-numbers-for-tesla-model-s-whats-the-deal

- - - Updated - - -

We don't know their battery limit, but for those not familiar with LiIon chemistry in general, 5 or 6 are very low C numbers. Which no doubt helps ensure long cycle life. Still, they are pretty darn low; unlikely the pack is the limitation.

5-6C are actually very high C numbers for the NCA chemistry Tesla is using. The high capacity 3400mAh Panasonic NCR18650B has a 5 second burst current of 12A (3.5C). The higher power, lower capacity 2900mAh Pansonic NCR18650PF (actually a NCA, manganese spinel hybrid) 5 second bursts at 18A (6.2C). Tesla is absolutely pushing these cells to their limit at a 5-6C discharge.

I'm using third party links below since Panasonic doesn't officially rate burst current, only continuous.
http://www.orbtronic.com/batteries-chargers/panasonic-3400mah-18650-li-ion-battery-cell-ncr18650b
http://www.orbtronic.com/batteries-...i-ion-rechargeable-battery-panasonic-flat-top

You aren't talking about a high draw, low density chemistry like lithium titanate or lithium manganese (certain types) that can easily do 10-20C.

 

[brianman]

3. As for power limiting kicking in on the P85D during track driving, I took mine to the track yesterday and didn't experience power limiting kicking in once. That said, it was a new track for me so I wasn't pressing it as hard as I could, but I was still hammering it full throttle up to 120mph on the main straight and didn't see the limiter once. Each 20 minute-ish session was 20 miles total during which I consumed 20kWh, so I was running at an average of 1000Wh/mi. I did 4 sessions. Not exactly going easy on the car. It was 45-50F outside and wet, so maybe outside temperature is a factor.

My P85 can't do this. Same track, same conditions, same day.

That said, I was consuming 950-1050 Wh/mi. per session -- keeping it below 90mph the whole session.

 

[loco]

So this thread is about Tesla falsely advertising the P85D because it doesn't live up to someone's expectation as a track car? I'm sorry, but where does Tesla sell this as a track car? It's marketed as a family sedan and nowhere does Tesla make any claims about its worthiness as a track car. I think any such expectations are in the mind of the beholder.

It is more about Tesla not being able to deliver full power for more than one minute, regardless of SOC. A race track is a good place to test this, but you can do the same on a road. Accelerate with 100% power to about 100 mph, then break as hard as you can, repeat. In a ICE car brakes would boil after a few times. In a Tesla, it is the power limiter that kicks in first.

 

[WarpedOne]

Yes, and so what?
One can also not plow a field with a Model S.
One can also not tow a large boat with a Model S.
One can also not suffocate himself to death in a closed garage with a Model S.

 

[loco]

Yes, and so what?
One can also not plow a field with a Model S.
One can also not tow a large boat with a Model S.
One can also not suffocate himself to death in a closed garage with a Model S.

Agreed. If you want to race, get a race car.
But some people expecting 691hp, GT-R beating performance may be disappointed after spending $100K. I think the OP was.
This car goes like a 200hp econo-box if you push it.

 

[Matias]

Yes, and so what?
One can also not plow a field with a Model S.
One can also not tow a large boat with a Model S.
One can also not suffocate himself to death in a closed garage with a Model S.

Tesla does not advertise, it can do those things. You do understand the difference?

 

[WarpedOne]

Ok, but I have little sympathy for people who go and blow 130k on a car without a single bit of research.
Cry me a river or go buy your 15th car this year.

This car goes like a 200hp econo-box if you push it.

This car goes like a rock if you don't push it at all.
What is this obsession with racetrack performance?
Show me a single case of real world situation where power limiting was a real problem. Not just a line on the dash, but serious "i cannot drive up that road", "I cannot overtake" kind of a problem.

Why no cry about that huge acceleration drop when you shift from first to second gear in any ICE car?
Not to even mention the shift from 2nd to 3rd. The car can not even spin the tires in 3rd gear anymore. Horrors!
This power loss in ICE car is unacceptable, it should be clearly stated that one gets full acceleration only in first gear, that is under what 30mph?

Why no crying about this sorrow fact? Almost no ICE car can spin tires at 100mph.

Only parents should care about too high expectations of their kids. When those kids grow up, their high expectations are their own problem.

 

[Matias]

Ok, but I have little sympathy for people who go and blow 130k on a car without a single bit of research.

So you are saying people should not trust Tesla's advertising?

 

[WarpedOne]

Tesla does not advertise, it can do those things. You do understand the difference?

Where does tesla advertise 691 HP? Or even prolonged continuous 691HP?
It advertises "motor power". It even used to be "combined motor power".
It is up to particular customer to educate himself what that actually means for the whole.
It is not their responsibility one understands it wrong. It is written in plain English - "motor power".

Where is the cry because *no* ICE car actually outputs the rated power?
No car maker advertises crankshaft power, it is just # kW/HP. When you put the car through its paces you get *less* out of it. Always and everywhere.
We got used that that # kW is not exactly # at all times or at anytime at all. It is just some number to help to compare to other cars (and it is a poor comparison because it completely ignores weight).

Does P85D beat everything else out there with less rated HP? Yes it does. It even beats some with more.
Does it beat everything else out there at any time and under any circumstances? No, it does not. No car can beat every other car at any moment and under any circumstance.
You look at what it can and what it cannot do and act accordingly.
You want a track car? Go away.
You want a kick-ass family car, a sleeper, a sign of the future, ..? You will enjoy it.

Different things are different and it is not their fault.

- - - Updated - - -

So you are saying people should not trust Tesla's advertising?

I'm saying people should learn to read and understand what is written.

 

[loco]

I love tesla. It is the future. It is the perfect city car. Charge at night, drive all day. Stoplight launches are fantastic and beat any other car.

But there is no point in denying it's limitations. For me, there are two: 1. you can't do long distance travel at 100+km/h average including stops like you can in an ICE car. 2. you can't drive it really fast for more than a minute or two.

So don't get me wrong. I was not disappointed at the race track. I knew I would be fighting for 2:00 lap time and I got 2:03. It was expected, because I hit the temperature limit on public roads before. I am not sour about it. Just stating facts.

 

[WarpedOne]

But there is no point in denying it's limitations.

Who is denying anything?
I only see lots of very poor reading comprehension.

For me, there are two: 1. you can't do long distance travel at 100+km/h average including stops like you can in an ICE car.

One can do over 400km at 100 km/h and over 300 km at 130 km/h.
In my book 400 km and even 300 km counts for long distance.

2. you can't drive it really fast for more than a minute or two.

One can go really fast for as long as one wishes.

What Model S cannot stand for long time is repeated hard stomping on accelerator and brakes.
Is that a limitation? Yes. An important one? No.

Ever heard of a brake fade? It happens with ICE cars also and degrades performance on track.
Where is the cry about brake fade? No manufacturer mentions it.

 

[Just a Reader]

Where does tesla advertise 691 HP? Or even prolonged continuous 691HP?
It advertises "motor power". It even used to be "combined motor power".
It is up to particular customer to educate himself what that actually means for the whole.
It is not their responsibility one understands it wrong. It is written in plain English - "motor power".
...

This is the link to Tesla's German homepage:

Model S | Tesla Motors Deutschland

Scroll down and you'll find that it says "700 PS Motorleistung" (700 hp motor power). They've even put the 700 in bold. The Tesla isn't some specialized piece of machinery that's only being sold to expert customers. It's being sold to normal car buyers and with this piece of information they can safely assume that the car does deliver 700 hp at some point. No judge will buy into the argument that the customer has to obtain background information or has to make all sorts of assumptions about what the manufacturer might mean with what he says.

BTW, Tesla's website also states that the car will come out of its garage on its own and wait in front of the door of the house. Does the car do that? There's no qualifier that this will only be available at some time in the future, if at all.

Small webshops have been taken to the cleaners by lawyers for smaller issues.

 

[Mattias]

This thread is soo "the typical american".

Everybody gets that it´s a peak value, nobody thinks that any car always produces peak output...

For example:

This is the Golf Mk6 GTI.

Very nice.

This is the power curve:

Aww dang, it´s not max power from 0 rpm to redline. It wont even produce specced power if im not driving at sea level at room temperature. Darn car companies!

Tesla is a battery powered car, and thus needs a charged battery to produce full power, end of. My phone´s flash wont work if the battery is below like 20% either...

I dont have a problem with americans, but this I cannot understand, seriously.

 

[Matias]

...

We have nearly identical username :wink:

 

[loco]

One can do over 400km at 100 km/h and over 300 km at 130 km/h.
In my book 400 km and even 300 km counts for long distance.

Tesla speed on long distance is about 70km/h (45 mph). This is what they got during coast to coast rally.
It is not a problem to get double that in ICE car in Germany, traffic permitting.

What Model S cannot stand for long time is repeated hard stomping on accelerator and brakes.
Is that a limitation? Yes. An important one? No.

Repeated stomping on accelerator and brakes is what fast driving is about. Tesla can't handle it.
Not important for 98% of owners. Does it mean we can't talk about it?

 

[Just a Reader]

This thread is soo "the typical american".

......

Aww dang, it´s not max power from 0 rpm to redline. It wont even produce specced power if im not driving at sea level at room temperature. Darn car companies!

Tesla is a battery powered car, and thus needs a charged battery to produce full power, end of. My phone´s flash wont work if the battery is below like 20% either...

I dont have a problem with americans, but this I cannot understand, seriously.

Volkswagen does state at which rpm the car achieves peak power. It's also a standardized process. If Volkswagen just stated "it does 200 hp", then you would have the same discussions as you get here.

 

[Mattias]

I guess that´s right. But there is no rpm gauge in the Tesla, so speccing power according to it would be strange.

Better to state the peak output. Like they already do.

 

[WarpedOne]

Tesla speed on long distance is about 70km/h (45 mph).

What? And I mean it: what?
What has average speed over some extremely long course has to do with anything here?
Speed is not something you "get", it is something you control. I start to wonder if you had ever even driven a car ...

Volkswagen does state at which rpm the car achieves peak power.

But don't try to measure it, because you will get a different and lower number.
Tesla of course does have a rpm gauge, it is just not labeled as that. With a single speed reduction gearbox, your speed gauge is also your rpm gauge.

My old chart:

That VW does peak power at some distinct RPM figure (with 6sp gearbox that evaluates to 6 different speeds), Model S does peak power in a rather wide (rpm and speed) interval.

Max power range for now discontinued P85 was from 5,000- to 8,600 rpm 416 hp (310 kW)
So, at 42 mph the motor is at 5000 rpm and at 73 mph it is at 8600 rpm.

So, anytime between 40 and 70 a P85 can output its max. Try to get that from any nonCVT ICE - you can not.

 

[loco]

What? And I mean it: what?
What has average speed over some extremely long course has to do with anything here?
Speed is not something you "get", it is something you control. I start to wonder if you had ever even driven a car ...

Let me give you an example. I would like to drive to Italy. 1300kms. I can do it in one day (10hrs total) in a ICE car. I can do it in two days (16 hrs total) in a Tesla.
That is a practical limitation. Most important one for me. Not related to this thread though.