[updated with *] P85D 691HP should have an asterisk * next to it.. "Up to 691HP"

[SDRick]

I think this says it all...

"On the other hand, the use of rollout with 0-60 times is inappropriate in our view. For one, 0-60-mph acceleration is not a drag-racing convention. More important, it's called ZERO to 60 mph, not 3 or 4 mph to 60 mph, which is what you get when you apply rollout. While it is tempting to use rollout in order to make 0-60 acceleration look more impressive by 0.3 second, thereby hyping both the car's performance and the apparent skill of the test driver, we think it's cheating".

So who in the US is using "rollout" for their 0 to 60 specs?

 

[dsm363]

But if they all do it uniformly, that makes little sense.

3.9 seconds sounds better than 4.3 seconds for example so it makes that particular car sound better even if they all do it.

 

[rns-e]

I don't have to, I'm not on trial, I'm having a conversation. I'm giving a reason that some DO use it, have for decades, and speculating on it's importance.

I'm not accusing you or putting you on trial - I'm sorry if I gave you that impression, I just want to find the documentation, because up til this point the only prof of the 1 foot rollout as a standard is postings like yours and it always ends up with people saying I don't have to provide any documentation to my claims, which do not bring us any closer to documenting that it is in fact a standard.

But fair enough - this conversation was once again a dead end when it comes to finding the documentation

 

[dsm363]

I'm not accusing you or putting you on trial - I'm sorry if I gave you that impression, I just want to find the documentation, because up til this point the only prof of the 1 foot rollout as a standard is postings like yours and it always ends up with people saying I don't have to provide any documentation to my claims, which do not bring us any closer to documenting that it is in fact a standard.

But fair enough - this conversation was once again a dead end when it comes to finding the documentation

From that same Edmonds article "Nevertheless, some car magazines and some automobile manufacturers use rollout anyway — and fail to tell their customers. "

 

[stopcrazypp]

For people asking about rollout, here's some articles about it from all major US car magazines.

The main reason for rollout is to simulate drag strip performance (with drag racing being a long time tradition in the US).

Car and Driver:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/the-importance-of-rollout

Motor Trend:
"We subtract a one-foot rollout from the launch to simulate dragstrip performance (dragstrip runs started the whole quarter-mile acceleration craze and remain the only practical way for most owners to test their own cars, so we want our numbers to match those acquired in this way)."
http://www.motortrend.com/features/112_0802_motor_trend_testing/viewall.html

Road and Track:
I didn't find an article for Road and Track discussing rollout, but their spec sheet for their P85D clearly lists a 1 foot rollout (scroll to bottom for spec sheet):
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...25888/climate-change-2014-tesla-model-s-p85d/

1 foot rollout was not something Tesla made up.

 

[rns-e]

For people asking about rollout, here's some articles about it from all major US car magazines.

The main reason for rollout is to simulate drag strip performance (with drag racing being a long time tradition in the US).

Car and Driver:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/the-importance-of-rollout

Motor Trend:
"We subtract a one-foot rollout from the launch to simulate dragstrip performance (dragstrip runs started the whole quarter-mile acceleration craze and remain the only practical way for most owners to test their own cars, so we want our numbers to match those acquired in this way)."
http://www.motortrend.com/features/112_0802_motor_trend_testing/viewall.html

Road and Track:
I didn't find an article for Road and Track discussing rollout, but their spec sheet for their P85D clearly lists a 1 foot rollout (scroll to bottom for spec sheet):
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...25888/climate-change-2014-tesla-model-s-p85d/

Thank you, but still not quite a industry standard, is it? Do we have any similar statements from any of the manufactors?

1 foot rollout was not something Tesla made up.

I'm sure they did not make it up - however, have Tesla ever mentioned 1 foot rollout or are people here just speculating that they use 1 foot rollout because some car magazines subscribe to 1 foot rollout?

 

[3mp_kwh]

I can not help but notice that there is a lot of 'you should have known' when it becomes clear that we can not trust the performance numbers Tesla claims for the P85D - is there anything else I should have known besides the missing hp and the missing acceleration when it comes to performance?

I didn't mean to be flip. Sorry. I guess we're finding that there are geographical differences in testing cars, to 60 mph. But we still agree you don't go printing "0-60", in 3.1, when its ~3.6+.

Another area of missing P85D acceleration/performance is coming out of turns, but that's not the focus of this thread.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Thank you, but still not quite a industry standard, is it? Do we have any similar statements from any of the manufactors?

I'm sure they did not make it up - however, have Tesla ever mentioned 1 foot rollout or are people here just speculating that they use 1 foot rollout because some car magazines subscribe to 1 foot rollout?

No US car manufacturer will explicitly say they are using rollout. They just use it without mentioning at all because it is standard convention in the USA.

For example, 2009 ZR1 was advertised at 0-60 3.4 seconds (just to pick something with similar acceleration):
http://jalopnik.com/396344/2009-corvette-zr1-pricing-released-638-hp-for-103300

Testing shows this is accomplished with rollout:
"The result is a best 0-60-mph time of 3.8 seconds (3.5 seconds with 1 foot of rollout like on a drag strip) and a quarter-mile time of 11.5 seconds at 128.3 mph."
http://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/corvette/2009/comparison-test.html

 

[brianman]

Another area of missing P85D acceleration/performance is coming out of turns, but that's not the focus of this thread.

I'm fairly confident it's not limited to "P" or even "D". It definitely is most frustrating in "P..D" though, IMO.

 

[rns-e]

I didn't mean to be flip. Sorry. I guess we're finding that there are geographical differences in testing cars, to 60 mph. But we still agree you don't go printing "0-60", in 3.1, when its ~3.6+.

Another area of missing P85D acceleration/performance is coming out of turns, but that's not the focus of this thread.

Its ok - I'm just trying to figure out what is facts and what is not. Maybe it is just a US/The rest of the world thing

No US car manufacturer will explicitly say they are using rollout. They just use it without mentioning at all because it is standard convention in the USA.

For example, 2009 ZR1 was advertised at 0-60 3.4 seconds (just to pick something with similar acceleration):
http://jalopnik.com/396344/2009-corvette-zr1-pricing-released-638-hp-for-103300

Testing shows this is accomplished with rollout:
"The result is a best 0-60-mph time of 3.8 seconds (3.5 seconds with 1 foot of rollout like on a drag strip) and a quarter-mile time of 11.5 seconds at 128.3 mph."
http://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/corvette/2009/comparison-test.html

Audi claims 0-60 mph for the RS7 (similar to P85D, 560hp) to be 3.7s 2016 Audi RS 7: Price - Specs - Performance | Audi USA

Car and Driver, who are using 1 foot rollout says it does 0-60 mph in 3.4s Audi RS7 Reviews - Audi RS7 Price, Photos, and Specs - Car and Driver

BMW claims 4.2s for i8 BMW i8 Model Overview - BMW North America and C&D gets it to 3.6s BMW i8 Reviews - BMW i8 Price, Photos, and Specs - Car and Driver

And Tesla claims 3.1s and Car and Driver gets 3.3s with 1 foot rollout - 2015 Tesla Model S P85D Long-Term Intro Car and Driver and Edmonds says 3.5s 2015 Tesla Model S Sedan Review Ratings | Edmunds

But then again, Tesla claims 5.2s for the 70D and C&D gets it to be 5.1s

Given these examples I begin to understand why the europeans in here feel cheated when it comes to the acceleration and why some of you in the US may not feel the same way. This is my first american car so I benchmarked against the european cars I use to buy and i believed the numbers given to me ...

 

[stopcrazypp]

Audi claims 0-60 mph for the RS7 (similar to P85D, 560hp) to be 3.7s 2016 Audi RS 7: Price - Specs - Performance | Audi USA

Car and Driver, who are using 1 foot rollout says it does 0-60 mph in 3.4s Audi RS7 Reviews - Audi RS7 Price, Photos, and Specs - Car and Driver

BMW claims 4.2s for i8 BMW i8 Model Overview - BMW North America and C&D gets it to 3.6s BMW i8 Reviews - BMW i8 Price, Photos, and Specs - Car and Driver

And Tesla claims 3.1s and Car and Driver gets 3.3s with 1 foot rollout - 2015 Tesla Model S P85D Long-Term Intro Car and Driver and Edmonds says 3.5s 2015 Tesla Model S Sedan Review Ratings | Edmunds

But then again, Tesla claims 5.2s for the 70D and C&D gets it to be 5.1s

Given these examples I begin to understand why the europeans in here feel cheated when it comes to the acceleration and why some of you in the US may not feel the same way. This is my first american car so I benchmarked against the european cars I use to buy and i believed the numbers given to me ...

Depends on pre or post update. R&T got 3.3 seconds also with 1 foot rollout, but their number was pre-update (so that compares to the 3.2 claim, not 3.1). Also, from other threads, the SOC during testing matters too (esp. for P85D which is hitting the battery limits).

MotorTrend actually got 0-60 in 3.1 with rollout pre-update:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/1411_2015_tesla_model_s_p85d_first_test/viewall.html

 

[rns-e]

Depends on pre or post update. R&T got 3.3 seconds also with 1 foot rollout, but their number was pre-update (so that compares to the 3.2 claim, not 3.1). Also, from other threads, the SOC during testing matters too (esp. for P85D which is hitting the battery limits).

MotorTrend actually got 0-60 in 3.1 with rollout pre-update:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/1411_2015_tesla_model_s_p85d_first_test/viewall.html

Ohh - I agree on that point. The motortrend test was back in november 2014, and I have NO doubt that the P85D was doing 0-60 in 3.1 or even faster if it was warmer, but then Tesla discovered that there might be some fuse problems and rolled back the performance, because we are not seeing does numbers now. Right now mine is doing 3.8 - 3.9s 0-100km/t (vbox) with 98% SOC and even with rollout of 0.2 that is 0.3 - 0.4s from 3.3s as claimed. Some will say that 0.3s is nitpicking, but that is what I paid the extra $$$$ for, plain and simple

No question that Tesla has rolled back performance from initial launch and re-instated some of the performance claiming 3.1s, however I would like to see some vbox data with 3.1s from within the laast 30 days with the latest update and with and without 1 foot rollout

 

[Torben_E]

I have also been following the debate intense... being a P85D European owner myself and tested again and again with the VBox.
0-100 km/h. Originally promissed 3,4 s now advertised with 3,3 s.
I get 4.1, 4.0, 4.1, 3.9, 4.0, 3.9 and a single time 3.8. Different SoC, different road, different temp. etc,.

My big question is very simpel.... Elon and Co said one very interesting thing during the launch.... He said... It has the same performance as the McLaren F1. Now tell me dear freinds. This European car build was it 15 or 20 years ago... Did it do 0-60 mph in 3.2 s or was it with 1 foot roll out so it actually did 4-60 mph.... ?

Any comment ? I am not being sarcastic... i really just want to know because this was his bensmark car... not a US drag racer.

Best regards
Torben_E

 

[Torben_E]

I have also been following the debate intense... being a P85D European owner myself and tested again and again with the VBox.
0-100 km/h. Originally promissed 3,4 s now advertised with 3,3 s.
I get 4.1, 4.0, 4.1, 3.9, 4.0, 3.9 and a single time 3.8. Different SoC, different road, different temp. etc,.

My big question is very simpel.... Elon and Co said one very interesting thing during the launch.... He said... It has the same performance as the McLaren F1. Now tell me dear freinds. This European car build was it 15 or 20 years ago... Did it do 0-60 mph in 3.2 s or was it with 1 foot roll out so it actually did 4-60 mph.... ?

Any comment ? I am not being sarcastic... i really just want to know because this was his bensmark car... not a US drag racer.

Best regards
Torben_E

Sorry i simply have to comment my own text.... Now I know why it is called a McLaren F1... F1 mean "one foot" (roll out)... lol.

Torben_E

 

[rns-e]

Sorry i simply have to comment my own text.... Now I know why it is called a McLaren F1... F1 mean "one foot" (roll out)... lol.

Torben_E

ahh - that is not why it is called F1, the name is a direct reference to its Formula 1 heritage

http://cars.mclaren.com/F1-design

edit: I have asked Kevin Magnussen about the 1 foot rollout, maybe he can ask in Woking, they must be able to give the most correct answer

 

[3mp_kwh]

Any comment ? I am not being sarcastic... i really just want to know because this was his bensmark car... not a US drag racer.

Best regards
Torben_E

3.2 The tables don't show one-foot rollout, but pretty sure you would find one was used.
Rocket Sleds: The Best Performers from 50 Years of Car and Driver Testing - Car Comparison - Feature Article - Page 2

 

[thegruf]

Tesla P85D
0 - 60mph 3.1 secs*

* with 1 foot rollout

... see it's really not that hard to do

(however as these are US built cars I am not in the least bit surprised at the use of US norms, that said a little foresight on Tesla's part for international parts of the website could have avoided this).


mind you a lot of manufacturers 0-60 times are somewhat contrived these days

Audi RS5
0 - 60mph 4.1secs*

* using launch control (5 seconds without)

Mercedes A45AMG
0 - 60 mph 4.4 secs*

*using launch control which is such a git to get everything set you wont bother and then cr@ps out unless the road surface is perfect (5.2 secs without or more likely several minutes!)

 

[wk057]

So yeah, my anger on this issue is renewed.

Last night I was driving home, and my wife caught up with me on the way and we stopped for dinner. On the way back from dinner we were side by side creeping to a light that had turned red, and it turned green while we were rolling on. At about 30 MPH we both punched it..... and she smoked me. Not by a little either, by more than a car length. She was driving a P85 with less than 50% SoC and I was driving my P85D with about 85% SoC. It took until about 70 MPH before I started to even gain on her, and even then super slowly. By the time we let off around 80 MPH I hadn't even gotten even with her yet.

We definitely punched it at the same time, too. Clear, dry conditions. ~75F.

Not going to lie, I am *pissed*. There is no way a P85 should best a P85D in any real performance test. If the P85D had anywhere near the claimed 691 HP I would have left her in the dust, but instead I can barely make a half-car length of headway from 30-80 MPH.

*shakes fist at Tesla*

I'm about to rent out a drag strip (or some place equally safe) for a few hours to do some somewhat official side by sides with videos and all, send it to Tesla, and call BS on this once and for all. If their own supposedly lower model vehicle can beat the P85D... well, that's going to be pretty damning I think.

 

[thegruf]

nah you're just pissed cos' your wife is better driver than you
lol

 

[rns-e]

I'm about to rent out a drag strip (or some place equally safe) for a few hours to do some somewhat official side by sides with videos and all, send it to Tesla, and call BS on this once and for all. If their own supposedly lower model vehicle can beat the P85D... well, that's going to be pretty damning I think.

I get why you are pissed. Thinking about doing the same here in Denmark. If you do, could you make sure to have a 85D to compare with alongside the P85.